jjsC5

While I don't mean to argue the basic point about whether they need a V8 or not, I'm not sure there is any logic comparing to Audi. Audi is not selling any more cars than Acura is. And the fact is that Audi actually has quite a few V8 cars and they have very high end cars that give credibility to the entire lineup.

Also, they while they are in-between right now on the 4,5,6 & 7 series without a V8, they have already announced that there will be RS versions of those cars with a high performance turbo V8's coming back.

Edward'TLS

The V8 and V10 are there to build up the brand image - premium, upscale, high-performance image, just like the Acura NSX, the M5, and the E63-AMG, which all also sold in miniscule numbers.

They are excellent marketing tools to boost model and brand images, which Acura are both lacking even up to today.

andvari

As I said before, it is state of the art mileage/hp for a 2 ton sedan. It comes at a price though, the price of turbocharging. And now you are saying it's 300hp, not 330.

So it is less stellar than I thought.

BEAR-AvHistory

I believe he is pretty much correct @330BHP for the 3 liter base Turbo. They dyno in the area of 285whp, using 93 octane & a standard correction factor of 15% for friction loss come out to about 327BHP. The turbo also generates a solid 307ftlbs of torque @ 1500rpm which is really the important number in a street car.

Have no idea if its stellar or not but its not to shabby for a 2979cc engine knocking down a EPA of 21/31 in a two ton car.

BTW its really hard to compare advertised BHP numbers since its not factual number & some manufactures typically under rate HP while others optimize them to keep separation in their product lines.

My car dynoed at 314whp against an advertised 320bhp. BMW's own standard WHP/BHP conversion would place it at 360bhp.

BEAR-AvHistory

Just a quick thought on debating 1mpg on the EPA numbers as meaning anything.

Even the EPA knows the numbers are BS. My window sticker says 17/24. It also says expected range for most drivers 14 to 20 & 19 to 29 along with the normal "your actual mileage may vary".

My actual has been about 20.4 in the city & 30 on the one highway run I made that was over 2hrs. I tend to drive quickly in town & +10 on the road so I think my numbers are pretty good for 365whp/420bhp.

Pic is just after a fill up from a week of 100% driving inside Raleigh City limits.

jjsC5

You cannot extrapolate crank hp from rwhp on a dyno. Simply doesn't work that way. BMW rates is at 300 hp at the crank. The days of fudging on rated hp is over. Manufacturers who have done that have been burned at the stake. BTW, the losses are a long way from being "frictional" losses. They are made up of a number of factors from the engine, through the transmission, drive shaft, differential, gear ratios, rotating mass of the wheels/tires/brake rotors, and even how much air pressure is in the tires (among other factors as well).

15% is a rule of thumb, and at that it is the rule of thumb for cars without a torque converter. But given that different types and brands of dynos, as well as how the dyno operator set up the dyno, they can vary quite a bit in what rwhp they show for a given car.

You might also want to study "SAE Certified" horsepower. It caused quite a few manufacturers to have to re-rate their engines about five years ago - including Honda/Acura.

BTW, I'd love to see where BMW has a factory conversion factor for rwhp versus crank hp. I find it very hard to believe they publish such a factor.

jjsC5

The fact that you get better mileage than the CAFE ratings does not prove your point. You need to understand how they arrive at city and highway numbers. City driving is very hard to generalize because city can vary wildly - things like traffic signal timing, amount of traffic etc makes a huge difference. Heck, driving the exact same place for a period of time to make up for day-to-day variables, my wife and I differ by about 3mpg in the same car just because of our driving styles. Freeway driving is also not rated at 100% cruising down a freeway.

I get that CAFE ratings are not an exact science, but I've owned a hell of a lot of vehicles and I can absolutely tell you that my mileage varies from one car to another very closely to what the variance of the CAFE ratings shows for each car. It may not be an exact science, but it is a science.

SeismicGuy

That's very true. I have driven a wide variety of cars over the years and rely on my butt-o-meter to judge a car's power. To that end (pardon the pun) the 2012 TL we recently bought seems much more powerful than the advertised 280hp. I get to drive the car generally on the weekend and I am constantly surprised at the responsiveness and pickup--seems even more eager to go as my old 1995 Corvette which was rated at 300hp.

jjsC5

Exactly why you should NOT use the "butt-o-meter" as a gauge. I had a 1994 Corvette which had the same power train as yours. I know the performance numbers on it. It will outrun your TL.

BEAR-AvHistory

The point is I am not getting overall better numbers then their posted Range but much better then their posted cafe number which is what most look at for comparison & disregard everything else. I am at the upper end of the range in both city/highway. The whole debate was IIRC was that car A had better mileage then car B because it was 1mpg better based on the cafe sticker.

In my case when they post a range that is 10mpg wide, almost 50%, on a 24mpg cafe rating there is not a great amount of meaning in the cafe number to an everyday driver. Even the city number range is 6mpg wide on a 17mpg cafe. There are guys here saying that might make a buy decision on as little as 2/3mpg spread between cars.

The cafe numbers are all just simulations which have gotten better over the years but they would do a much better service to the public if they just posted the range & not highlight a single number which in most cases, based on mileage threads here, is taken as an absolute, but that almost no one will match in real life.

BEAR-AvHistory

The 300hp would be downgraded under the new system that your TL is rated on. Have no idea what is quicker since my Vette was a 67 coupe which ran 327, 350, 406, 454 & 461 motors during the 20 years I had it & was a regular at Englishtown. It chugged along pretty well & the mileage sucked, but hey, gas was cheap then.

BEAR-AvHistory

Quick question, do you really believe that a awd tl has 5 more crank horsepower then a 335i?

SeismicGuy

What's this new system and when did it kick in? The last time I recall a major reinterpretation of horsepower was back in the 1970s when there was a drastic change in reported horsepower (e.g., Mopar 383 went from 335 to about 275 in one year).

andvari

In 2008 the EPA redid their simulations in order to obtain a better estimate because they were finding people were not getting results that matched the EPA numbers. For example the new / old ratings for a 2001 200HP V6 Toyota Solara that I used to own are:

New: 17-20-25
Old: 20-22-27

Specific number highlighting is strictly marketing by the car companies. The FTC should crack down on that form of statistic abuse.

The purpose of these numbers is:

1. To allow fleet calculations for CAFE mileage goals.
2. To give consumers a basis for comparison.

It is certainly not perfect. However individual anecdotal reports are FAR LESS perfect than the EPA simulation results because there is decent systematic basis for the EPA results.

As far as making buy decisions I think that a very small percentage of people have the intuitive mathematical sense realize how little the pocketbook hit is when it comes to a 2 mpg difference. For most it is something like $150/year. Now if you are talking about a guy that is earning $40,000 a year with a long commute a 5 mpg difference becomes significant.

But for people buying new TL's not so much. Mileage differences become talking points on which badge has better engine tech, not how it impacts the family budgets.

BEAR-AvHistory

Was about 2004 or 5 when the TL was downgraded from 270BHP to 258BHP. The problem was it was phased in so some cars were running the old system while others were under the new one.

jjsC5

I have no idea how to answer that question. Both cars are very different. The TL is much heavier. I also know that BMW has always gotten more from their cars than most. But many factors are involved that contribute to performance beyond just hp numbers..

In this case, without having done the math, I'm see no reason to not believe either manufacturers ratings. I am very familiar with the performance figures for both cars. If you take the power to weight ratios of both cars, and factor in things such as the launch capabilities of AWD vs RWD, the numbers seem very believable to me.

jjsC5

That was the SAE "Certified" rating system. Manufacturers are not required to use it (they were not, I am not positive if they are now or not). But many manufacturers elected to go to it. Mostly what they found is that the Japanese were the worst at rating cars higher, American and European manufacturers generally speaking were pretty close already.

This rating does not change the way the hp is measured like what happened in the early 70's, it changes the accuracy and the way the results went to the rating of the car.

Here is an article that explains it better than I can...

http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/...and-resolution

JM2010 SH-AWD

Agree. Well put.

saturno_v

And do not forget that one is turbocharged and the othert isn't.....it can make a significant difference in acceleration even with similar HP numers and weight....

TSXboy422

Just traded my TSX last year for a 2011 TL and I love it!!!

metric

Hopefully get rid of the ugly ass beak for starters. Can't stand the 4g front end. Hell the back is bad enough

jjsC5

Do you not think the changes to the 2012 went far enough? I hated the 10-11 front end, but I'm fine with the 12.

Hamma Tyme

Just for clarification the BMW 3.0 N55 Turbo has 300hp & 300lbs of torque, but the 3 Series IS 3.0 has 320hp & 332lbs of torque. Also BMW usually increases hp after a new model re-design so I would expect the 2013 models will be increasing the N55 up to 335hp at a minimum.

In regards to Acura, the V8 is a myth being Honda has mentioned many times over the years a V8 and rear wheel drive is not in their cards.

Although it seems Acura is re-thinking their direction, so anything is subject to change for the future.

KES

I am not sure what way Acura will go.

BMW is headed in a new direction. M3/M5 continue to offer top of the line in performance, tier II remains unchaged with the 335 /550 /535 but have changed Tier III with the 528 and 328 both with 4 cyclinder 2.0 turbos with 8 speed transmissions, start stop technology yielding much better fuel econonmy.

I think Acura should follow a similar path with 3 tiers - Tier I limited production performance with a S-Type - tier II high end with a 300+ hsp offering and a tier III base that offers Acura reliability and high fuel economy. Each tier should have the same level of luxury but be differtiated by the performance.

slick316

After test driving the new 2013 GS 350 the other day, I think Acura will have to do a lot to keep me as a customer. If the new GS is the direction that Lexus is heading with its vehicles, I'm willing to follow.
With that said, I am happy with the new 2013 RDX as far as the looks and features go, I'll reserve further judgement until I test drive one.

jjsC5

No question that Lexus is going more sporty and is upping their game. Oddly enough though, I'm not all that happy with the new GS, and I own a 2010 GS now. The new one is a very nice car, but I just can't get all that excited over it. I think the front end styling is very awkward, and does not flow at all with the rest of the car. And I am seriously disappointed with the total carryover drivetrain. Another 25 hp would have been in line with what the competition has been doing, and why they didn't put in the 8 speed transmission simply dumbfounds me.

Edward'TLS

It'll come, later.

It is normal practice by auto makers to reserve the newest technology exclusively for the top-of-the-line flagship cars, a.k.a. the Lexus LS.

The 8-speed auto will eventually trickle down to the lower class GS model line.

I think it's a good move. Just look what Acura did to the RL.

The current TL is given the exact latest technology (3.7L-V6, SH-AWD, 6AT) as the top-of-the-Acura-line RL, and it ends up ruining the RL sales.

Potential RL buyers will keep asking themselves why buying the RL when they can get the exact same tech in the TL for thousands less.

slick316

I have to agree that the styling is different, especially for Lexus, but then again, Acura hasn't been getting a lot of praise in the looks department and it didn't stop me from buying one. I tend to prioritize the interior over the exterior, and the interior of the GS is a nice place to be
I also agree that the power train carry over was a disappointment at first, until I saw this: Regardless of how it looks on paper, it performs. Up until 2012, the E350 had a 268hp 3.5L V6, and just now got a 302hp version. The 535 and A6 also have 300hp and 310hp respectively. So the GS is not out of line with 306hp. Even if its slower, its not slow by much. My main point is that the quality and features now available on the GS with the price makes it a nice alternative to the German big 3.

jjsC5

The 8-speed will eventually "trickle down"???? Do you know how many years it's been since they put the 8 speed in the V8 GS? I'd have to look it up, but I think it's about 5 years ago. That is not "trickling down", that is moving at the pace of glaciers. ALL, and I do mean ALL of the direct competitors have 7 or 8 speeds now.

jjsC5

Yes, but the competitors you mention all offer more hp, the GS does not. And please don't tell me how it performs, it's straight line performance is identical to the 2010 GS that I have now. I agree it's not slow by any means, but I expect a step forward when an all new model comes along.

Hyundai is a good example of a hungry company. The Genesis is not in the same class overall as the Lexus or Acura for that matter, but they are at least putting forth a good effort on all fronts. The 2012 base version now has 338hp (I think, I know I'm close) and gets better gas mileage - in large part to it's 8 speed automatic.

slick316

I would bet that Lexus will offer up a GS460 or whatever they want to call the V8 version eventually. The Hybrid, which I guess has more HP than the V6 and better mileage is still on its way.
Looking at the hybrid got me thinking though. If Lexus put the 8 speed into the GS350, how much better would the highway mileage be, 30-31mpg instead of the current 28mpg? And it would probably offer quicker acceleration also right? If that were the case, what would be the point of the hybrid? Seems like the hybrid would have no place in the lineup. Lexus probably wanted to keep the numbers somewhat separated on the two models in order to show customers that there is a difference.
Even though I like the new GS and would consider buying one, I understand where you are coming from and agree that Lexus may have disappointed some customers by not putting forth a 110% effort on this new model.

JM2010 SH-AWD

I saw and sat in the new GS at a recent auto show. Liked the car, even the exterior, but the price was a shocker - 63K!

KES

I am not sure how many tranny gears are needed 6,7 8?. I test drove a 528ix today. When cruising 80MPH it was still in 7th gear so I am not sure how often 8th gear would come into play unless you were on the autobahn.

Rocketsfan

Is the TL even a head-to-head competitor with the GS? I think the the TL is going to have to compete with the ES and IS. I think the GS may be in another league. I'm speaking off the top off my head as I haven't done an apples-to-apples comparison. That new Lexus ES 350 is definitely going to steal some sales.

winstrolvtec

^Well you easily put the TL FWD to compete with the ES, the TSX with the IS to an extent, and then I (as well as others including folks within the industry) do not think it is unrealistic to put the TL SH next to the GS along with the RL. The TL SH more of something in between an ES and GS or TL FWD and RL though.

jmatero

I for one am perfectly satisfied with the new GS and current TL six-speed automatics. Be carefull what you wish for. I have yet to visit an Audi, Chrysler, Dodge, or Hyundai forum where owners of the new 8-speeds aren't complaining. More is not necessarily better. These 8-speeds have 6/7/8 or 7/8 as overdrives for fuel economy.

I drove the new 335i, Genesis 5.0, TL, and new GS and the best shifting autos with the sportiest quickest shifting were the Acura and Lexus.

Eli

The 5G TL will likely get a slight power increase, and mpg increase due to direct injection and some valve train changes, maybe ~300 HP for the 3.5 liter. Also it seems that they will eliminate the 3.7 liter, with the AWD model using their new electric motor system to drive the rear wheels. They'll rely on a hybrid system for power increases instead of increasing engine displacement from now on.

Source: http://world.honda.com/news/2011/411...ogy/index.html

boe_d

I still think the 2012 Acura is FUGLY - but I like the previous TLs so much I'm hoping they'll change things to bring me back as a customer.

Things that would make me come back to Acura
1 - Less fugly - hell, go back to the 2008 design and while it is a little dated it isn't fugly
2 - Much improved MPG - Make 2 editions - the TL S with 600 HP and 10MPG and the standard edition with 250 HP and 40MPG. I'm not allowed to drive at 140mph in CA so better MPG is something I can take advantage of -unlike more HP.
3 - improve the quality
4 - improve sound insulation - I spend hours in the car each day - want to make phone calls.
5 - improve the GPS significantly and voice commands. make the GPS a seperate unit in the trunk so if I want to upgrade it years from now, I don't have to rip out the dashboard.

Greggsg

Really? I dont like the MDX... not enought head room and no MT. I cant drive it unless I am hunched over and I am 6'3"

deepen03

don't think we'll be getting a 2013 TL.. so to speak.

Acura is renaming the RL to RLX.. just announced

and they have patented the TLX name as well

so 2012 model year, we'll get the TL and TSX.. and for the fall, looks like the new 2013 TLX will be revealed.