2013 TL??? What's going to make you want to buy it?
12-12-2011, 11:29 PM
#161
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/12/a...-to-be-killed/
12-13-2011, 05:07 AM
#162
Instructor
Not in itself, no. The thing is the way the author chooses to word it, as if Acura decided to abandon a top tier movement all of a sudden with the recent annoucement of it's new direction and tech but that has already been the case for some time now. This is not news.
It also might allow one to think that it still isn't moving in that direction simply because that's the opinion of the author or the choice of wording, as there is no real definition of how "top tier" is being interpreted here.
It's when you read into it that you find very valid arguments that it is still moving in an upward tier movement as I described previously. It's just contradictory to say that Acura is now abandoning a top tier movement while still heading in that direction more now than before, more than ever even. Did you not see that as what I meant or that it is a bit contradictory?
It also might allow one to think that it still isn't moving in that direction simply because that's the opinion of the author or the choice of wording, as there is no real definition of how "top tier" is being interpreted here.
It's when you read into it that you find very valid arguments that it is still moving in an upward tier movement as I described previously. It's just contradictory to say that Acura is now abandoning a top tier movement while still heading in that direction more now than before, more than ever even. Did you not see that as what I meant or that it is a bit contradictory?
Also mentioned is the RDX going from a 4 banger turbo to a 6. What??? Every car company is losing cylinders and adding direct injection and turbos. So why is Acura going the opposite direction here?
Also mentioned was the low sales and blaming on the earthquake and the economy. I do agree with this statement, but the styling of the TL hasn't helped either. There are many like me who waited for the new 09 and went a different direction once they hit the car shows introducing the new look.
I'm pretty confident Acura will redesign cars to fit the entry level once again with performance, great economy, and new body styles in the coming years. If not, we may only have Hondas in 5 years which I don't think is going to happen.
12-13-2011, 08:33 AM
#163
Three Wheelin'
lol. They must've heard us talking. Rumor is the TL or TSX apparently to be "killed" :
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/12/a...-to-be-killed/
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/12/a...-to-be-killed/
BTW, are you still a Rockets Fan these days?
12-13-2011, 01:06 PM
#164
Burning Brakes
Yes, those little extra touches like folding mirrors and steering columns that moves out of the way automatically are nice. I was sorely tempted to buy a Genesis by the better horsepower numbers and upscale features compared with the competition but ended up remaining loyal to Acura due to 12 years of flawless ownership experience with our 2000.
I rented a Sonota for a few weeks and was disappointed in the car. Based on that I would not go for the Genesis, since it's reported to have the same floaty ride feeling.
I hope Infiniti ups the game for 2013 as well.
12-13-2011, 03:57 PM
#165
Instructor
C/D future TL rumor...
Got this from Autoblog.com. Haven't been here on this site in a few days, so I apologize if this is old news.
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/12/a...-to-be-killed/
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/12/a...-to-be-killed/
12-13-2011, 06:34 PM
#166
12-13-2011, 06:41 PM
#167
TL... will never be killed, because its Acura's Legendary car.
TSX... wont be killed either.... #1 seller
ILX (if you havent heard)will be here soon.... Acura Civic, so to speak
RDX - Getting a 3.5L V6... wont be scratched
MDX - Best SUV in its class....
If anything, one would think the RL would be scrapped, but i do know Acura has plans for a 7spd, V6 F/I AWD Sedan, that will also be some type of hybrid (this article mentioned electric motors in the rear)...
In my opinion, all the Acura cars will be here to stay... i mean they dont even have that many in comparison
Lexus - IS, ES, GS, LS, RX, GX, LX, ctH, (and another SC soon)
MB - C, E, S, SL, CLS, GLK, SLK, ML, R, SLS/R
Audi - 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 R8, TT, Q5 Q7
BMW - 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, Z, X3 X5
Plus the above brands all have several variations of each class (M series, AMG, S Series, and 2 door or 4 door options)
Acura. TSX, TL, RL, RDX, MDX & ZDX
Infiniti.G, M, EX, FX & QX
Jeez Infiniti.... slacking
These two brands need to increase their assortment, or they will never have equal market share
TSX... wont be killed either.... #1 seller
ILX (if you havent heard)will be here soon.... Acura Civic, so to speak
RDX - Getting a 3.5L V6... wont be scratched
MDX - Best SUV in its class....
If anything, one would think the RL would be scrapped, but i do know Acura has plans for a 7spd, V6 F/I AWD Sedan, that will also be some type of hybrid (this article mentioned electric motors in the rear)...
In my opinion, all the Acura cars will be here to stay... i mean they dont even have that many in comparison
Lexus - IS, ES, GS, LS, RX, GX, LX, ctH, (and another SC soon)
MB - C, E, S, SL, CLS, GLK, SLK, ML, R, SLS/R
Audi - 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 R8, TT, Q5 Q7
BMW - 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, Z, X3 X5
Plus the above brands all have several variations of each class (M series, AMG, S Series, and 2 door or 4 door options)
Acura. TSX, TL, RL, RDX, MDX & ZDX
Infiniti.G, M, EX, FX & QX
Jeez Infiniti.... slacking
These two brands need to increase their assortment, or they will never have equal market share
12-13-2011, 06:46 PM
#168
pretty sure the MDX is the top seller... gotta verify that though, and also we will probably see a hybrid of the TL/TSX take shape if Acura pursues a 3 sedan lineup (likely), something like an ILX (confirmed new subcompact), TLX (pure speculation... TSX sized with aluminum components, e-shawd/v6... something around the current TL's pricing, maybe a little less?), and RLX (flagship sedan poised to undercut 7 series at 5 series price)
12-13-2011, 07:44 PM
#169
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IMHO, the only reasons the TSX is the better selling sedan are related to "passing" circumstances; IOW - it got lucky.
- With the upsizing of the new Gen TSX and availble V6, it "fits" in the range as a re-styled 3G TL.
- With the economy taking a dump, lower priced cars got a boost in sales.
- The polarizing style of the 4G TL turned a lot people off; While it's grown on some, and been re-styled to be somewhat less controversial, first impressions matter.
All 3 of those things can change in fairly short order and put the TL back on top of the sales charts; just like the 3G TL was.
- With the upsizing of the new Gen TSX and availble V6, it "fits" in the range as a re-styled 3G TL.
- With the economy taking a dump, lower priced cars got a boost in sales.
- The polarizing style of the 4G TL turned a lot people off; While it's grown on some, and been re-styled to be somewhat less controversial, first impressions matter.
All 3 of those things can change in fairly short order and put the TL back on top of the sales charts; just like the 3G TL was.
12-13-2011, 07:59 PM
#170
pretty sure the MDX is the top seller... gotta verify that though, and also we will probably see a hybrid of the TL/TSX take shape if Acura pursues a 3 sedan lineup (likely), something like an ILX (confirmed new subcompact), TLX (pure speculation... TSX sized with aluminum components, e-shawd/v6... something around the current TL's pricing, maybe a little less?), and RLX (flagship sedan poised to undercut 7 series at 5 series price)
12-13-2011, 08:31 PM
#171
One site, "carscoop" feels that the TSX will be replaced with a facelift to the TL in 2013, which I assume will be called the 2014 model year:
A report from Autonews confirms the news adding that the Honda Civic-based ILX will effectively replace the TSX, which is derived from the European market Honda Accord.
Talking to reporters at the Las Vegas event, Vicki Poponi, American Honda assistant vice president for product planning, said the brand's TSX, TL and RL sedan were cannibalizing sales because they were too close in exterior dimensions and interior space. "Our sedans haven't been doing the job for the brand," she said.
Poponi added while sharing major components, the ILX will bear no resemblance to the ninth-generation Civic or the Canadian-market Acura CSX.
"All the suspension settings will be tuned to be Acura," she said. "Consider it as different as the TL is from the Accord or the MDX is from the Pilot."
We also learn that the ILX will be offered with a choice of three powerplants including a 2.0-liter direct-injection four-cylinder unit matched to an automatic transmission, a 2.4-liter engine with a six-speed manual transmission or a 1.5-liter hybrid powertrain.
The report goes on to say that a facelifted version of the TL sedan and a new MDX crossover are scheduled to be introduced in 2013.
full story: http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2011/12...place-tsx.html
A report from Autonews confirms the news adding that the Honda Civic-based ILX will effectively replace the TSX, which is derived from the European market Honda Accord.
Talking to reporters at the Las Vegas event, Vicki Poponi, American Honda assistant vice president for product planning, said the brand's TSX, TL and RL sedan were cannibalizing sales because they were too close in exterior dimensions and interior space. "Our sedans haven't been doing the job for the brand," she said.
Poponi added while sharing major components, the ILX will bear no resemblance to the ninth-generation Civic or the Canadian-market Acura CSX.
"All the suspension settings will be tuned to be Acura," she said. "Consider it as different as the TL is from the Accord or the MDX is from the Pilot."
We also learn that the ILX will be offered with a choice of three powerplants including a 2.0-liter direct-injection four-cylinder unit matched to an automatic transmission, a 2.4-liter engine with a six-speed manual transmission or a 1.5-liter hybrid powertrain.
The report goes on to say that a facelifted version of the TL sedan and a new MDX crossover are scheduled to be introduced in 2013.
full story: http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2011/12...place-tsx.html
12-14-2011, 02:56 PM
#173
Three Wheelin'
And while, they are at it, they should replace the RL name with "Legend". The story is that they killed the Legend name because they thought that name had more recognition than Acura. That led to Acuras first decline in sales and prestige.
12-14-2011, 06:29 PM
#174
Pro
Again, it seems to come down to the fact that Honda has the dumbest and least focused marketing of the bunch. After a few false starts it certainly looks like Toyota (Lexus) finally got their act together and have a decent lineup of cars that cover the various market segments and have also finally managed to create a common identity between all the models (something that Mercedes and particularly BMW have had down pat for umpteen years). Same for Infiniti. And then along comes Hyundai that is spanking everyone in their entrance into the upscale/performance sedan class.
Come on Honda, get with the program already!!
Come on Honda, get with the program already!!
12-14-2011, 07:39 PM
#175
Three Wheelin'
Again, it seems to come down to the fact that Honda has the dumbest and least focused marketing of the bunch. After a few false starts it certainly looks like Toyota (Lexus) finally got their act together and have a decent lineup of cars that cover the various market segments and have also finally managed to create a common identity between all the models (something that Mercedes and particularly BMW have had down pat for umpteen years). Same for Infiniti. And then along comes Hyundai that is spanking everyone in their entrance into the upscale/performance sedan class.
Come on Honda, get with the program already!!
Come on Honda, get with the program already!!
Hyundai is doing a lot of things right, but they are taking an approach with the Genesis and Equus that is costing them by selling them along side the cheaper models in and using the Hyundai name. An awful lot of people I know won't consider the car just because it is a Hyundai. I have done a lot of homework on them and considered buying a Genesis myself, then for my wife. I was told "no way", we've worked to hard to own a Hyundai. The upside to them using this approach is that the cars help elevate the status of the cheaper cars they sell.
As much as we complain, Acura is not really a train wreck, they just have some fairly minor tweaking to do in my opinion.
12-14-2011, 08:41 PM
#176
Pro
I think you are right in some ways, but confused about your comment on Lexus. They got it right from the beginning, but if anything they lost some focus the past few years which they are trying to regain with the upcoming GS. Infiniti is the one that has had trouble from the start with a cohesive identity.
Hyundai is doing a lot of things right, but they are taking an approach with the Genesis and Equus that is costing them by selling them along side the cheaper models in and using the Hyundai name. An awful lot of people I know won't consider the car just because it is a Hyundai. I have done a lot of homework on them and considered buying a Genesis myself, then for my wife. I was told "no way", we've worked to hard to own a Hyundai. The upside to them using this approach is that the cars help elevate the status of the cheaper cars they sell.
As much as we complain, Acura is not really a train wreck, they just have some fairly minor tweaking to do in my opinion.
Hyundai is doing a lot of things right, but they are taking an approach with the Genesis and Equus that is costing them by selling them along side the cheaper models in and using the Hyundai name. An awful lot of people I know won't consider the car just because it is a Hyundai. I have done a lot of homework on them and considered buying a Genesis myself, then for my wife. I was told "no way", we've worked to hard to own a Hyundai. The upside to them using this approach is that the cars help elevate the status of the cheaper cars they sell.
As much as we complain, Acura is not really a train wreck, they just have some fairly minor tweaking to do in my opinion.
I came close to getting a Genesis to replace my wife's 2000 TL but we were basically struggling with the same sentiment. I even had a Korean co-worker poking fun at the fact that it was a Hyundai.
Still, have you seen the latest commercial for the Genesis R-Spec where the car is racing around the track with the narrator saying how it is quicker from 0-60 than a Porsche Panamera? Now there is a company that knows how to market!
12-14-2011, 08:58 PM
#177
Three Wheelin'
You forget about the earliest days of Lexus. There were initially 2 models--the LS and the ES250. The ES250 was sort of an embarrassment as it was really just a gussied Camry. For several years the ES was always just a retrimmed Camry. However, the latest ES looks like a slightly downsized LS and all of the Lexus models now have basically the same front treatment (just like BMW). I do agree though that Lexus was better than Infiniti in getting it right finally.
I came close to getting a Genesis to replace my wife's 2000 TL but we were basically struggling with the same sentiment. I even had a Korean co-worker poking fun at the fact that it was a Hyundai.
Still, have you seen the latest commercial for the Genesis R-Spec where the car is racing around the track with the narrator saying how it is quicker from 0-60 than a Porsche Panamera? Now there is a company that knows how to market!
I came close to getting a Genesis to replace my wife's 2000 TL but we were basically struggling with the same sentiment. I even had a Korean co-worker poking fun at the fact that it was a Hyundai.
Still, have you seen the latest commercial for the Genesis R-Spec where the car is racing around the track with the narrator saying how it is quicker from 0-60 than a Porsche Panamera? Now there is a company that knows how to market!
I'm very familiar with all of the Hyundais. I would love to drive the "R". I'm waiting for a full road test in one of the magazines. Amazingly the car has been out for five months and not a single road test in any of the mainstream mags. Don't forget that there is a base Panamera with 300 hp.
Just found this on-line. I don't recall seeing this in the print version of MT (I have all MT magazines - going back to 1965!)...
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...0_r_spec_test/
Last edited by jjsC5; 12-14-2011 at 09:02 PM.
12-15-2011, 11:50 PM
#178
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Not in itself, no. The thing is the way the author chooses to word it, as if Acura decided to abandon a top tier movement all of a sudden with the recent annoucement of it's new direction and tech but that has already been the case for some time now. This is not news.
It also might allow one to think that it still isn't moving in that direction simply because that's the opinion of the author or the choice of wording, as there is no real definition of how "top tier" is being interpreted here.
It's when you read into it that you find very valid arguments that it is still moving in an upward tier movement as I described previously. It's just contradictory to say that Acura is now abandoning a top tier movement while still heading in that direction more now than before, more than ever even. Did you not see that as what I meant or that it is a bit contradictory?
It also might allow one to think that it still isn't moving in that direction simply because that's the opinion of the author or the choice of wording, as there is no real definition of how "top tier" is being interpreted here.
It's when you read into it that you find very valid arguments that it is still moving in an upward tier movement as I described previously. It's just contradictory to say that Acura is now abandoning a top tier movement while still heading in that direction more now than before, more than ever even. Did you not see that as what I meant or that it is a bit contradictory?
Pretty Scathing:
December 14, 2011
Acura takes dead aim... at mediocrity.
By Peter M. De Lorenzo
(Posted 12/12, 5:00 p.m.) Detroit. Thirteen months ago I wrote a column (“That’s all you got, Mr. Ito?” - 11/10/2010) about the future of Acura. Flailing and failing, Acura had totally lost its mojo and its raison d’etre, and its leader, Takanobu Ito, pretty much had nothing to offer other than this: “We are having a lot of discussions about Acura and which way it should be going. And what we confirmed is that the brand direction should be smart premium, not top tier… We agreed that smart premium is what we should be targeting with Acura, not the upper-segment vehicles such as Lexus or Mercedes-Benz. We must apply advanced technologies which make our vehicle more fun to drive, achieve a more comfortable drive and high environmental performance. "
Last week, Acura executives took the media under the tent ahead of the upcoming Detroit Auto Show, confirming Ito’s leanings from a year ago. Mark Rechtin, reporting for Automotive News, says Acura will settle for offering mid-level premium vehicles that favor fuel economy over performance, even though the company plans on unveiling an environmentally friendly successor to the NSX sports car in Detroit.
To justify their position, Acura executives went on to mock modern day luxury cars as being examples of technical overkill. And much is revealed in the following quotes.
Mike Accavitti, the former head of Dodge who became American Honda's vice president of marketing in August, describes the current luxury market as "too much machine and not enough humanity. Our overweight bodies require overweight engines and more safety systems to protect them. Some of these cars the average driver just can't control. We have been increasing performance beyond the ability of the driver, or we have complicated the driving process."
Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura R&D, said, "Technology is only as good as the driver. The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."
Sales chief Jeff Conrad insisted that Acura was returning to its original product philosophy, as reported by Rechtin, which revolves around elegant engineering and class-leading fuel economy. And that they would no longer pursue the best-in-class entries from the top-tier automakers.
And Vicki Poponi, American Honda assistant vice president for product planning, added, "Our engineering ego was getting in the way."
Really? That’s hard to fathom because I don’t think anyone in this business would actually accuse Acura of having some sort of engineering ego. Acura has been so far off the radar screen of the “great cars” discussion for so long that the company occupies a strange existence in a netherworld between irrelevance and inconsequence. How can you possibly cultivate an ego around that?
....
Acura takes dead aim... at mediocrity.
By Peter M. De Lorenzo
(Posted 12/12, 5:00 p.m.) Detroit. Thirteen months ago I wrote a column (“That’s all you got, Mr. Ito?” - 11/10/2010) about the future of Acura. Flailing and failing, Acura had totally lost its mojo and its raison d’etre, and its leader, Takanobu Ito, pretty much had nothing to offer other than this: “We are having a lot of discussions about Acura and which way it should be going. And what we confirmed is that the brand direction should be smart premium, not top tier… We agreed that smart premium is what we should be targeting with Acura, not the upper-segment vehicles such as Lexus or Mercedes-Benz. We must apply advanced technologies which make our vehicle more fun to drive, achieve a more comfortable drive and high environmental performance. "
Last week, Acura executives took the media under the tent ahead of the upcoming Detroit Auto Show, confirming Ito’s leanings from a year ago. Mark Rechtin, reporting for Automotive News, says Acura will settle for offering mid-level premium vehicles that favor fuel economy over performance, even though the company plans on unveiling an environmentally friendly successor to the NSX sports car in Detroit.
To justify their position, Acura executives went on to mock modern day luxury cars as being examples of technical overkill. And much is revealed in the following quotes.
Mike Accavitti, the former head of Dodge who became American Honda's vice president of marketing in August, describes the current luxury market as "too much machine and not enough humanity. Our overweight bodies require overweight engines and more safety systems to protect them. Some of these cars the average driver just can't control. We have been increasing performance beyond the ability of the driver, or we have complicated the driving process."
Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura R&D, said, "Technology is only as good as the driver. The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."
Sales chief Jeff Conrad insisted that Acura was returning to its original product philosophy, as reported by Rechtin, which revolves around elegant engineering and class-leading fuel economy. And that they would no longer pursue the best-in-class entries from the top-tier automakers.
And Vicki Poponi, American Honda assistant vice president for product planning, added, "Our engineering ego was getting in the way."
Really? That’s hard to fathom because I don’t think anyone in this business would actually accuse Acura of having some sort of engineering ego. Acura has been so far off the radar screen of the “great cars” discussion for so long that the company occupies a strange existence in a netherworld between irrelevance and inconsequence. How can you possibly cultivate an ego around that?
....
http://www.autoextremist.com/
12-16-2011, 02:30 AM
#179
It's all in the context. Some articles and sources have this news in a positive light others in a negative light. Some are choosing to focus more on the new lower end offerings and that direction, others on the higher end tech and offerings, which is another new direction as well.
They had already claimed to have abandoned a tier one movement a few years ago, that's not where they are and they also do not plan to persue a full top tier status and reconfirmed that, I got it, but that does not necessarily mean they will be any less of whatever tier or perceived tier they already are overall.
Furthermore, directly or indirectly, by adding more advanced and performance oriented powertrains, as well as economical ones, plus new models and ranges with new target markets and price points with further refinements and tech likely throughout (at least for most models), that makes a good case to suggest that they are climbing the tier ladder to some extent, whether that is the top tier or not.
What I am saying is not exactly black and white, a yes or a no and not as simple as being top tier or not being top tier (and depending on interpretation) but are you trying to suggest that there is no validity to that? It's ok if you do or if you disagree, it's just not clear to me is all.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 12-16-2011 at 02:44 AM.
12-16-2011, 09:08 AM
#180
I have not forgotten the early days at all. I agree on the ES. But the LS400 came out swinging. I knew two very rich Compaq Computer execs at the time who both traded their M-B 560S for a LS400. That car put a lot of pressure on BMW and M-B. Trust me when I tell you that those guys had more money than they knew what to do with. I watched them piss away money on their "Cigarette" boats like you would not believe.
I'm very familiar with all of the Hyundais. I would love to drive the "R". I'm waiting for a full road test in one of the magazines. Amazingly the car has been out for five months and not a single road test in any of the mainstream mags. Don't forget that there is a base Panamera with 300 hp.
Just found this on-line. I don't recall seeing this in the print version of MT (I have all MT magazines - going back to 1965!)...
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...0_r_spec_test/
I'm very familiar with all of the Hyundais. I would love to drive the "R". I'm waiting for a full road test in one of the magazines. Amazingly the car has been out for five months and not a single road test in any of the mainstream mags. Don't forget that there is a base Panamera with 300 hp.
Just found this on-line. I don't recall seeing this in the print version of MT (I have all MT magazines - going back to 1965!)...
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...0_r_spec_test/
12-16-2011, 11:18 AM
#181
Pro
All-in-all it seems like Honda/Acura need to do some real housecleaning at the top executive levels. What a crummy defeatist type of attitude to be espousing--essentially "we are giving up--we can't hack it". Toyota has had no problem aiming at upper tier. Ditto for Nissan (Infiniti) and certainly Hyundai (Genesis, Equus). I guess that Acura wants to be considering the target to be Maxima and Camry rather than the entry tier BMW and Mercedes.
12-16-2011, 11:46 AM
#182
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The first item I referenced said exactly that; in the headline anyhow. You pointed out, pretty accurately imho, that the article itself wasn't so cut and dry.
As a follow up to that discussion (is Acura "abandoning" pursuit of Top Tier), I had run across this blog. The blog itself is a "rant", but some of the quotes are pretty telling about Acura's current view. In particular when the top guy says:
.... “We are having a lot of discussions about Acura and which way it should be going. And what we confirmed is that the brand direction should be smart premium, not top tier …
Then add this:
Sales chief Jeff Conrad insisted that Acura was returning to its original product philosophy, .... And that they would no longer pursue the best-in-class entries from the top-tier automakers.
I don't know where Acura is going. I'm just not sure that your earlier suggestion that Acura in NOT "abandoning" the pursuit of Top Tier status matched what Acura is actually (or seems to be) saying. Your follow up does provide some additional clarity to me.
If I've misunderstood your statement(s)/intent/argument, no offense was intended.
Last edited by Bearcat94; 12-16-2011 at 11:49 AM.
12-16-2011, 03:11 PM
#183
Drifting
"Really? That’s hard to fathom because I don’t think anyone in this business would actually accuse Acura of having some sort of engineering ego. Acura has been so far off the radar screen of the “great cars” discussion for so long that the company occupies a strange existence in a netherworld between irrelevance and inconsequence. How can you possibly cultivate an ego around that?"
I find it very hard to give any credibility to someone who says these kinds of things. They obviously do not appreciate the engineering (and real world) beauty of Acura's SH-AWD system. They obviously haven't spent time in a car (the TL) that returns mid-20s mileage and yet will run with cars that cost 20K more, and all without the complexities and potential problems associated with artificial aspiration. Honda and Acura are known for their engineering - that's what it means, for example, to mass produce engines that will spin at 8000 RPM for 250K miles without grenading. And to sell cars that contain such engines for 5 figures less than comparable products. To say Honda and Acura do not have engineering worthy of an ego is simply an intentional mis-statement, made to justify a bias, or based on gross ignorance.
I find it very hard to give any credibility to someone who says these kinds of things. They obviously do not appreciate the engineering (and real world) beauty of Acura's SH-AWD system. They obviously haven't spent time in a car (the TL) that returns mid-20s mileage and yet will run with cars that cost 20K more, and all without the complexities and potential problems associated with artificial aspiration. Honda and Acura are known for their engineering - that's what it means, for example, to mass produce engines that will spin at 8000 RPM for 250K miles without grenading. And to sell cars that contain such engines for 5 figures less than comparable products. To say Honda and Acura do not have engineering worthy of an ego is simply an intentional mis-statement, made to justify a bias, or based on gross ignorance.
12-16-2011, 05:27 PM
#184
Pro
"Really? That’s hard to fathom because I don’t think anyone in this business would actually accuse Acura of having some sort of engineering ego. Acura has been so far off the radar screen of the “great cars” discussion for so long that the company occupies a strange existence in a netherworld between irrelevance and inconsequence. How can you possibly cultivate an ego around that?"
I find it very hard to give any credibility to someone who says these kinds of things. They obviously do not appreciate the engineering (and real world) beauty of Acura's SH-AWD system. They obviously haven't spent time in a car (the TL) that returns mid-20s mileage and yet will run with cars that cost 20K more, and all without the complexities and potential problems associated with artificial aspiration. Honda and Acura are known for their engineering - that's what it means, for example, to mass produce engines that will spin at 8000 RPM for 250K miles without grenading. And to sell cars that contain such engines for 5 figures less than comparable products. To say Honda and Acura do not have engineering worthy of an ego is simply an intentional mis-statement, made to justify a bias, or based on gross ignorance.
I find it very hard to give any credibility to someone who says these kinds of things. They obviously do not appreciate the engineering (and real world) beauty of Acura's SH-AWD system. They obviously haven't spent time in a car (the TL) that returns mid-20s mileage and yet will run with cars that cost 20K more, and all without the complexities and potential problems associated with artificial aspiration. Honda and Acura are known for their engineering - that's what it means, for example, to mass produce engines that will spin at 8000 RPM for 250K miles without grenading. And to sell cars that contain such engines for 5 figures less than comparable products. To say Honda and Acura do not have engineering worthy of an ego is simply an intentional mis-statement, made to justify a bias, or based on gross ignorance.
12-16-2011, 05:38 PM
#185
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"Really? That’s hard to fathom because I don’t think anyone in this business would actually accuse Acura of having some sort of engineering ego. Acura has been so far off the radar screen of the “great cars” discussion for so long that the company occupies a strange existence in a netherworld between irrelevance and inconsequence. How can you possibly cultivate an ego around that?"
I find it very hard to give any credibility to someone who says these kinds of things. ....
To say Honda and Acura do not have engineering worthy of an ego is simply an intentional mis-statement, made to justify a bias, or based on gross ignorance.
I find it very hard to give any credibility to someone who says these kinds of things. ....
To say Honda and Acura do not have engineering worthy of an ego is simply an intentional mis-statement, made to justify a bias, or based on gross ignorance.
For the record, I'm not saying his "analysis" is any good - it is a "rant" blog after all.
But a quote is a quote and as long as it's not completely out of context, it give some perspective on what Acura's leadership thinks.
12-16-2011, 07:25 PM
#186
Three Wheelin'
Good clarification!
12-16-2011, 07:31 PM
#187
Three Wheelin'
Here is an interesting article I ran across today about Honda. Read about a third of the way down the paragraph that starts with "Acura has been a particular headache for Honda..."
http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_new...for-a-comeback
http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_new...for-a-comeback
12-16-2011, 08:12 PM
#188
Drifting
I understand what you are saying. I am questioning the ranter's credibility, not yours.
12-16-2011, 08:29 PM
#189
Drifting
Here is an interesting article I ran across today about Honda. Read about a third of the way down the paragraph that starts with "Acura has been a particular headache for Honda..."
http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_new...for-a-comeback
http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_new...for-a-comeback
12-16-2011, 09:24 PM
#190
2010 sales
Lexus- 229,329
BMW- 220,113
Mercedes- 216,448
Buick-155,389
Cadillac- 146,925
Acura- 133,606
Infiniti-103,411
Audi- 101,629
12-17-2011, 02:08 AM
#191
Perhaps I misunderstood your position earlier. I thought you had said that you don't believe that Acura is "abandoning" - stepping away from; giving up on - the pursuit of Top Tier Luxury status.
The first item I referenced said exactly that; in the headline anyhow. You pointed out, pretty accurately imho, that the article itself wasn't so cut and dry.
As a follow up to that discussion (is Acura "abandoning" pursuit of Top Tier), I had run across this blog. The blog itself is a "rant", but some of the quotes are pretty telling about Acura's current view. In particular when the top guy says:
I don't know where Acura is going. I'm just not sure that your earlier suggestion that Acura in NOT "abandoning" the pursuit of Top Tier status matched what Acura is actually (or seems to be) saying. Your follow up does provide some additional clarity to me.
If I've misunderstood your statement(s)/intent/argument, no offense was intended.
The first item I referenced said exactly that; in the headline anyhow. You pointed out, pretty accurately imho, that the article itself wasn't so cut and dry.
As a follow up to that discussion (is Acura "abandoning" pursuit of Top Tier), I had run across this blog. The blog itself is a "rant", but some of the quotes are pretty telling about Acura's current view. In particular when the top guy says:
I don't know where Acura is going. I'm just not sure that your earlier suggestion that Acura in NOT "abandoning" the pursuit of Top Tier status matched what Acura is actually (or seems to be) saying. Your follow up does provide some additional clarity to me.
If I've misunderstood your statement(s)/intent/argument, no offense was intended.
Your links were very informative nontheless and give a better perspective about how the Acura execs are articulating things but I do think they are also doing some things that also go against what they are even saying and can be as much of a step forward for the tier status of the brand as they can be a step back. It is really a lot speculation until we see what the final products are all about but I think many of these introductions will actually allow Acura a much easier and less costly movement to top tier status range if they so choose to persue that afterwards.
"Abandoning" is probably not the best word IMO and I was really being very critical of it but it was not your word or way of putting it so I was not directing anything towards you per se. For one thing, I really can't remember a time when Acura was actually considered top tier or stated they were truly going for it without saying they were not shortly after anyway, or that they were really ever on their way to begin with, and then I think there is also a pretty good case to be made that some of these moves might result in a higher tier perception even if it's not top tier.
Top tier or tier one is a term that gets thrown around a bit but I don't think Acura consumers think it actually means too much for obvious reasons and I'm not so sure you really need that to make a good, competitive luxury car or brand or to be successful. I think the term is losing more and more value with every passing day and I never liked the idea behind tiers because it promotes tier chasing because it almost suggests that a given car or brand is the so called "tops" by whatever measures or standards (maybe arbitrary) and the others are trying to do what that car does instead of trying to do their own thing.
Not to get off topic but I found this to be an intersting perspective of the whole tier concept and how it might be changing or fading. http://autoperspectives.com/blog/201...have-a-future/
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 12-17-2011 at 02:16 AM.
12-17-2011, 02:10 AM
#192
6G TLX-S
Doesn't matter whatever Acura will kill off, this "smart luxury" auto division still desperately in need of a coupe.
12-17-2011, 07:15 AM
#193
Three Wheelin'
I was surprised at the Infiniti comment as well. I have actually owned three Infinitis, but I'm the first to admit that they have had more of an identity problem than the others - especially at the top end of the lineup. I have a few very good friends who drive high end cars (M-B, BMW, Jaguar etc.). One of them has actually owned an Infiniti M45, but now he won't even consider them now that he has owned a few M-B's and BMW's.
12-17-2011, 11:30 AM
#194
Pro
“The reality is while Acura started out as a luxury leader we didn’t capitalize on our brand,” acknowledged Jeff Conrad, vice president of Acura Sales.
Gee--you think so?
Gee--you think so?
12-17-2011, 11:46 AM
#195
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I was surprised at the Infiniti comment as well. I have actually owned three Infinitis, but I'm the first to admit that they have had more of an identity problem than the others - especially at the top end of the lineup. I have a few very good friends who drive high end cars (M-B, BMW, Jaguar etc.). One of them has actually owned an Infiniti M45, but now he won't even consider them now that he has owned a few M-B's and BMW's.
How much of these "non Tier One", "lack of engineering" arguments boil down to "It's because Acura doesn't have a high output V-8 in the range"?
12-18-2011, 03:17 AM
#196
6G TLX-S
"Available V8 engine option" is the only ticket into the "Tier 1" true luxury auto brand club. There is no shortcut to it.
12-18-2011, 11:45 AM
#197
Drifting
With tightening CAFE standards and erratic (but inexorably rising) fuel prices, I suspect the V8 club will become a lonelier and lonelier place in the future. While Acura no doubt missed out on the great party from 1995-2007, when the world acted like cheap gas and plentiful oil were here to stay, they're probably smart to stick with high output V6s and mixed hybrid powerplants in the years ahead.
12-19-2011, 12:09 AM
#198
6G TLX-S
^^^^^ Just bear in mind that if the V8 engine is used solely as an engine option, and not as the standard engine on the base vehicle, it will hardly dent the overall fleet CAFE figure, since V8 only accounts for a very small % of sales.
This is the standard practice for the true luxury auto brands which equip base vehicles with small V6's and make available high power V8's as an upgrade option. There is always an entry level model with tinny engines to offset the negative CAFE contribution by the V8 models.
In addition, fuel price and fuel consumption are never a concern for those real loaded buyers who can really afford all these gas guzzling true luxury vehicles.
V8 engine option is needed not to boost the total sales, but to add performance and exclusivity images to the particular vehicle models and in the end, the auto brand name. It is an excellent marketing tool to boost brand image which is exactly what Acura is seriously lacking all these years.
This is the standard practice for the true luxury auto brands which equip base vehicles with small V6's and make available high power V8's as an upgrade option. There is always an entry level model with tinny engines to offset the negative CAFE contribution by the V8 models.
In addition, fuel price and fuel consumption are never a concern for those real loaded buyers who can really afford all these gas guzzling true luxury vehicles.
V8 engine option is needed not to boost the total sales, but to add performance and exclusivity images to the particular vehicle models and in the end, the auto brand name. It is an excellent marketing tool to boost brand image which is exactly what Acura is seriously lacking all these years.
12-19-2011, 08:40 AM
#199
Three Wheelin'
Honestly, I'm not sure what the right answer is. I personally don't care if they have a halo car or not - such as the NSX. I think from a marketing standpoint (and I have a Marketing degree, but I'm not especially proud of that) I think what hurt them over the past 15 years is that they went after a market that did not sit well with the early Acura buyers - of which I am one of. I had a '92 Vigor and a '92 Legend.
What turned me off was when they catered to the "ricer" crowd. RSX's with fart pipes were being associated with Acura more than the Legend. Acura became more intent on trying to get volume with $20,000 tarted up Honda Civics.
12-19-2011, 09:52 AM
#200
Mademoiselle Chanel!!
It would benefit Acura to make these changes and create a lineup of Type-S division similar to the M and AMG for BMW and Benz. It amazes me how many people shot from the hip on Honda and Acura without truly knowing the vehicles. Like jjsC5 I was a bit miffed at the street racers in the lineup and so much attention given to that sector. That should have been reserved for the Honda lineup.
Halo cars are great for marketing and "look at what we can do, " however if you want sells i with the upscale brand go tech, power, performance, and handling...aligned with Acura's reliability and value it would generate a package hard to beat.
Halo cars are great for marketing and "look at what we can do, " however if you want sells i with the upscale brand go tech, power, performance, and handling...aligned with Acura's reliability and value it would generate a package hard to beat.
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