And so you have the best in term of what you are looking for, the next part is, what exactly does that have to do with the TL, TL owners, or this forum?

If you are a wine enthusiast, you buy all kinds of wine, you shop all kinds of wine and you compare all kinds of wine and appreciate them just the same but understandably, you do have to draw some lines. You might not necessarily group a $75 bottle of a specific grape and region with the same type for $50 be it in your cellar or on a wine list but to suggest they are not comparable, don't have similar qualities and should not be grouped together even on a more specifc basis, nor cross shopped, you are being unrealistic and very unobjective. FWIW, usually wine (and as depicted as in this very example) is actually grouped this way anway.

I am not sure why the comparison always has to be taken to extreme ends? You do understand that objectively (or as much as it can be) the TL is not a $15 bottle relative to a comparable mid level sedan being a $1500 bottle?

What I think you were getting at was something more to the effect of comparing a $150 bottle to a $300 bottle (which IMO is the wine equivalent of the TL and mid level comparison or gap and not necessarily cost related) and being able to tell the differences and appreciate them. I hope you are not suggesting that we don't know the difference or don't appreciate them as that's not it at all.

The issue is that you are not getting a wine that is twice as good, despite being twice the price. The actual difference is more along the lines of a $100 bottle vs a $150 bottle (something like an Accord vs TL equivalent) but the $300 cost is very disproportionate to the amount of additional quality or car you are actually getting. So some would much rather order 2 $150 bottles instead of 1 $300.

I can also appreciate the differences, additional quailty and refinement of a TL relative to an Accord or Camry just the same but I can also justify the cost differences of a comparable trim or model ($7k). As far as a TL to a comparably equipped mid level, the quality and refinement gap (etc) between them is really no different, as it is the same type of gap in an objective sense (as much as it can be), yet the price gap is almost three times as much instead.

Perhaps relavent, perhaps not, the truth is that the difference between a real life $15 bottle and a $1500 vintage bottle is that in most cases the vintage bottle is not drinkable, it's vinegar and you are paying for the prestige and collector item elements, not the wine itself.

 

i think this is all matter of opinion.

some people dont factor the "bang for your buck" term.

now if the question is, which is the better car?

then i would say that the lexus would be.

now if the question is which is more bang for your buck?

then obviously the TL SH-AWD


How it looks to you is what you think, not the rest of the world.

now i personally like the car, it offers things the tl does not.

Here is a list of things that the TL does not have but the GS does have. but for a 15k price difference.

ADAPTIVE HEADLIGHTS
ADAPTIVE SUSPENSION DAMPERS
POWER REAR SUNSHADE
HEATED STEERING WHEEL
16 WAY POWER SPORT DRIVER SEAT
HEATED REAR SEATS
REAR PASSANGER AUDIO AND CLIMATE CONTROL
NIGHT VISION CAMERA
ADAPTIVE CRUISE CONTROL
MARK LEVINSON 17 SPEAKER SURROUND SOUND SYSTEM
TOUCH SCREEN NAVI SYSTEM WITH 12.3 INCH DISPLAY
HAS CONNECTED APPS AND SERVICES

there are some more, but you get the idea.



"ECO mode revises throttle mapping, seat heating, and climate control systems for better fuel economy. In ECO mode, meter lighting changes to blue.
SPORT S mode revises throttle mapping and transmission shifting priorities to fully exploit the capabilities of the powertrain. In SPORT S mode, meter lighting changes to red.
SPORT S+ mode (available on some models) engages handling enhancements via a sport setting of the adaptive variable suspension, steering system, and vehicle stability control (VSC) together with the powertrain enhancements of SPORT S mode.
An optional electronically controlled all-wheel-drive system is designed to enhance traction in a variety of driving conditions. The system can vary front-to-rear torque balance from 50/50 to as much as 30/70, depending on driving conditions, for exceptional control."




but at the end, if i was ballin and had the money to pick up the gs f sport i would.

the features that come with the gs is pretty impressive but again, it comes with a price tag.

 

The OP post reads like he likes the Lexus but does not want to deal with the $15K difference.

There are things I like but don't want to pay the price.

 

Well, the OP is interested in other things too not only the price gap.....here some quote:

I would say he likes the Lexus and he likes the TL as well.....I do not think the price gap is much of an issue, he did clearly state his budget....

 

Geehhh...sometime I just feel like people don't! The $15K gap is not the major issue here. I would've looked at the RL if it offered more than the TL!


Saturno. V is correct. My budget is in the mid $50k up to $60K. The Lexus is the only vehicle in this price range that I think I can keep in the long term with reasonable maintenance cost.
I guess I have to go out this weekend to do some test drive. Though it'll be freaking cold here. Single digit low with high teens.

 

@this is me...so you are looking at buying this outright with cash or financing?

 

Planning on financing less than half of the my $60K max budget. This is why the TL SH AWD is appealing. I can almost pay off the car if I go with the TL SH-AWD.
If I go with the TL, I would be buying with my head. If I go with the GS, I would be buying with my heart. It's a tough choice either way. But happiness is most important in life isn't it?

 

@ This is me

I have to be honest with you and tell you that I like the look of the old GS better than the new one....I'm sure the new one is an outstanding luxury sedan (Lexus is definitely a safe buy here under any aspect...reliability and so on, quality is top notch) but the early pics do not look too encouraging to me...I need to see it on the road...it seems a bit too ordinary to me...has the new GS AWD a Torque Vectoring feature?? It does't look like to me as far as I can tell...


On look alone, frankly, I would go TL.....it really stands out.....and if you like a bit of spirited handling you get that in spades....

 

I did just check out, the new GS does not have Torque Vectoring...

 

I would probably be at least test driving the current 2011 GS right now if I haven't seen and read all the rave review on the 2013 GS. It's a totally different GS. Looks and handling performance from what I read. I spent the past month or so just reading up on the 2013 GS ever since I felt the slip in my transmission.
If we didn't already have a 2010 TL in the family, the 2012 SH-AWD would be a no-brainer. I'm not a fan of trading cars in for new ones every couple years. I want to get at least 4-5 years after the monthly payment has stopped. This pretty much crossed out the Germans on my list and leave me with where I am today.

 

Well the fit and finish in Lexus vehicles is impeccable even if a particular model does not suit you.

 

I am sorry but you don't go from 80K in sales to 34K in sales then after 4/5 years change your basic marketing strategy if you are doing something right.

BTW turnabout is fair play, This does not include you, but I remember some of the same guys here having S__t Fits when I said their choice of cars looked like Batman's Joker from the front are now making fun of the Lexus looks.

 

3 to 1 he gets the Acura. We will just have to wait & see. As was mentioned a small handful of fans with top end models does not make the case that $15K is a throwaway for the average TL buyer.

BTW in his first post he brought up the $15K preimum as some thing he needed to think about. I would think if $15K was a non-issue money would not have been mentioned.

 

Who wouldn't bring up a $15K difference? But if you read some of my post after that, it clearly stated why the TL was considered.

 

Even very rich people look at their dollars (even more so because they are rich in the first place)

It is a non issue if he sees the value on it and if he likes the car.......

The fact that you can afford it does not means you do not look at alternatives...especially if you are a value oriented person.......

If you buy a Bimmer or a Lexus also because of their nameplate then Acura does not even enter the equation...

Going back to square one...defining the "average" TL buyer....meaning profession, income, etc....it would be interesting to see if Acura has actually done such profiling....

The drop in TL sales is obvious from the 3rd gen nobody denies it and the reason I believe reside almiost entirely with the controversial styling...someone loves it (me for example and other TL buyers) and others hate it....it is definitely more polarizing than the 3G which was regarded almost unanimously a handsome sport sedan.

Acura marketing strategy and product positioning (in general) sucks, no question about and I'm afraid is getting worse.....

I would not be so sure.....we'll see....obviously he knows Acura so he has probably some attachment/knowledge to the brand......I do not think the 15K gap is the issue.....if he sees the value in it is the issue...

Let me share with you an interesting article appeared last year in the Wall Stree Journal and other media which probably will throw a wrench in your maybe too preconceived vision of stratification of society in terms of income = car I drive....

6% of American Express Centurion Card holders have an Hyundai in their garage...that's right....

The average Centurion Card holder has 16.3 million in assets and an household income of 1.3 million.

Hyundai percentage is tied with Audi and Bentley.....Acura is at 7%, BMW at 22%, Mercedes 21%, Porsche 15%, Lexus 11% and Ferrari 8%...that leaves a lot of brands, even luxury brands, behind......


Confused???

http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/20...buy-a-hyundai/

http://wot.motortrend.com/no-joke-am...ais-94799.html

Morale of the story....do not assume that a 5 Series driver may not skimp on gas money and has problem making his mortgage payment and do not assume that a Genesis driver doe not have a million dollar vacation home....

 

Me. I could have bought a 135/7DCT coupe (same overall performance envelope as what I have) & saved about $15K but buying 135/7DCT to save the $15K never came up in the decision mix. I just liked the 335 coupe body lines better.

I did read you following posts like " Planning on financing less than half of the my $60K max budget. This is why the TL SH AWD is appealing. I can almost pay off the car if I go with the TL SH-AWD."

Agree the TL is a lot cheaper the the Lexus & there is nothing wrong with thinking about the $15K spread but as you said heart/mind it seems like the $15K is a prime driver on a go no-go decision. This has nothing to do with your decision, everybody should do what is best for their family situation but just a comment that $15K is not a trivial matter to an Acura buyer.

The other side of the debate with saturno_v using you as an example is it’s a lot easier to step down on the money spent then it is to step up.

 

I do not blame you...the 1 Series is one of the fugliest looking car I ever seen......it has an almost comical "hot wheels" appearance....from behind it look like someone kicked them in the butt and the front lights look like the car has the conjiuntivitis....the side view look like a 3 Series coupe shrank on a vise....conversely, This is me defined the TL "stunning"...He likes the TL a lot. If he did not like it I bet he would not consider it....Did he mention a G?? or an A4?? No....

I think that This is me will answer for himself but I believe the primer driver here is if he sees the value......yes the fact that with the TL he would have a very little car payment is appealing (everybody love to save money)...does not necessarily means he cannot afford the GS comfortably.....

I do not agree but that is a given

 

Damn, are TL owners really making fun of another car's front end?

 

Food for thought: CalTech and Stanford researchers did a test a few years ago re: wine testing. 1 bottle of wine was labeled $10 and the other $90. The 2 bottles were then sampled.

In the study, the price tags were left intentionally on the 2 bottles of wine. The testers stated the "$90" bottle of wine tasted better; the study showed the brain's pleasure center was considerably more stimulated in the "$90 bottle" compared to the "$10 bottle."

The reality: the two bottles of wine were the same Cabernet Sauvignon.

So do you really get what you pay off? Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. IMHO.

 

Me, I couldn't tell the difference, but the people I know who would buy $1500 bottles of wine are shall we say, in the know.

Let's say we take a random person and blindfold them. Then we sit them as a passenger in different cars. Do you think the passenger will be able to tell, which cars are which by the ride?

 

im sure they can tell the difference.. i sure can..

the tl and the gs are dynamically different in their way but very noticeable.

 

well when the tl first came out, alot of members hated it, but then started to like it and some of them even bought it.


not everyone will be pleased with the front end of the gs, but it will grow on them. they will like it like they like the 4g tl's beak.

 

All I could find on a quick look into was Acura Five-passenger, four-door mid-size sedan front-wheel drive Buyer Demographics: Age 35-45; household income $100,000; 60% male/40% female

The median salary for a BMW owning household is around $160,000 annually. The difference between 3 series owners ($140,000) and full size luxury 7 series ($260,000) is significant, yet tends to be indicative of luxury brands, with Mercedes owners pulling in $170,000 and Audi lovers at $183,000.

My add-on: based on the 3 series number I would think the 5 series is higher.


So in plane English, they got it wrong

No not at all. I will bet a large percentage in NYC & Tokyo don’t even have a car & use the Black Car with their Black Card or the company limo. Its interesting however that Acura is right in there with Hyundai 6/7% @ about 1/3 the of the 21/22% for MB & BMW user base or that the Lux cars account for 89% of the total users.

You seem to forget although all I have is a regular old MasterCard I had a TL along with a $15,000 MSRP pick-up truck in my garage along with the SUV & two other BMW’s. Think IIRC I might even have still had the old 1981 280ZX at the time.

I Believe in cases where the TL is a second third or fourth car people can setup up $15K in price without much trouble.

Some of the TL SH AWD guys are listing Z06 Vettes etc. on their signature lines & I have no doubt that they can buy what they want within the context of this discussion..

That being said I see a lot of the other cars here listed in signatures, like yours for instance, being less costly then the TL or not current models or single units.

Question is which group really represents the typical TL buyer & do they have the kind of purchasing power to move up by $15K?

 

Some of you may be rich. Some of you may be rich enough to not see $15K as anything. But I'm not any of those. I make enough to afford my budget. That's why I set a budget. TL means that my payment will be very low. And I can probably spend my money on other things. But if the $15K extra on the GS makes me more content then I would gladly put my money on that instead.

The question here all along is can the TL SH-AWD pleases me as much as the GS F Sport. But I'm afraid I'll have to answer that for my own.

 

I'm a disciple of the 3rd pedal, and I happen to think the 6MT 4G TL is one of a small group of truly excellent cars from the past 10 years or so, so that's my answer.

There are certain things, I dislike them and think of them as foolish geegaws, that are available on the lexus and not on the TL. If these items, listed by an earlier poster, appeal to you or are important to your purchasing decision then the GS may be the appropriate car for you.

If you look at the list and think "hah, suckers", then the TL is probably your best bet.

Preferably with 3 pedals, of course.

 

To each of his own. But it took me awhile to like the front of the 4G TL especially the pre-MMC. After the MMC, it looks a lot nicer. I too, think Acura is going the wrong direction with their product strategy. My hope for them was pretty much gone after they announced the ILX. They need to move up! not down.
I have no problem with the 2013 GS front end. I think it looks gorgeous!

 

It's interesting, I was looking at pulling out some average income by brand as well and I cannot locate anything specifically for Acura.
Forbes did a survey but is not longer accessible online...but I just found a forum where they talk about and they only mention the top 6 brands...however someone from that forum did post the "Trucks" category (in Forbes Luxury Cars Demographic survey) and Acura was at 161K average household income vs. BMW at 166K...the "Trucks" category in this segment basically are the SUVs....so in that particular segment in Forbes survey only 5K separates the average household income betwen Acura and BMW...

http://www.autospies.com/news/Forbes...raphics-22691/

I cannot pull anything directly from the JD Power survey (which is even more recent), it would be very interesting to look at.

A 2006 JD Power survey found Honda buyers (including Acura) at the top of the average household income at 88K, beating DaimlerChrysler, Nissan + Infiniti, Toyota + Lexus, VW + Audi, Ford including Volvo, Jaguar and Land Rover.


https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342575


Where did you find the Acura four door demographics?? It is related to the TSX?? It is the intended target from Acura or actual data pulled from owners?? Where did you find the breakdown in income for single BMW models?? And, again , these are intended BMW targets or actual data polled from people??

Yes...too polarizing and eventually they chickened out and refreshed the car.....A German luxury automaker would never do that......the E60 5 Series initially attracted a lot of criticism, BMW held steady and eventually it was the most successful 5 Series ever.....this is what I mean when I say that Acura marketing and product placement sucks...

My wife's STI is fully loaded to the hilt and actually it did cost more than my TL!! (after negotiation, out of the door)

 

Looks like you're trying hard to come up with something to justify buying the GS. It seems your mind has been set, so be it.

 

I believe that the survey was restricted to the US and obviously to people that actually own cars....


That Hyundai is now almost on par with Acura (at least among the lucky people in this particular survey) does not surprise me...nowadays Hyundai has 2 products (the Genesis and the Equus) on a higher segment position than Acura......these are the inevitable consequences of Acura miserable marketing and product strategy.....


Obviously BMW, MB, have all hyperluxury models which Acura lacks (not mentioning a stronger brand image which is very important) and inevitably they fare better in the survey....surprising (in a negative way) is Audi poor standing in that survey given their product range....

 

I have a '12 TL SH-AWD Advance and a '10 Lexus GS 350 with Nav/Mark Levinson. They are very different cars to say the least, but the new F-Sport will come in a little closer to the TL in sportiness, which is the big difference between the two. The TL SH-AWD feels like a true sports sedan, the GS a luxury sedan.

First of all, the difference is not $15,000 unless you compare AWD cars. And frankly, it's not my fault that on the Acura you have to get AWD to get the sport version, whereas on the GS you get a sport version RWD. That is the only reason I got the AWD TL. If the car had been RWD that is what I would have bought. The Lexus will list for about $53,000 for the F-Sport, and a little more with Navigation and Levinson. Probably about $56K with those options - at which point other than the AWD it will be equiped the same as the $46K SH-AWD TL - but the Lexus will still have a few more luxury features.

The lease on my Lexus is up in 11 months. The TL is my wife's car. Both cars are on my radar, but I would prefer the Lexus. Quality is not an issue on either of them. If anything, the TL has a more solid feel to it, but there is no real difference in quality, and I think the '13 GS will have a much more solid feel to it as well. I am quite sure that the GS will feel like a much more expensive car when you get in it. They are very nicely finished, and the '13 has a killer interior in my opinion. The dealers are having their introduction to them the week of Feb 6th.

BTW, I find it very ironic that there are several posts criticizing the front end of the new GS - that being the single most polarizing aspect of the TL.

 

Thanks for the inputs. AWD is a must for me on my next vehicle. We get snow here quite often(although this year has been very grey). I travel to Montreal at least once a month and the road to Montreal can be treacherous in the winter months. The roads in Montreal are not anywhere near as clean in terms of snow removal and treatment. All citizens are required to have snow tires.

I can't wait til February to come so I can test drive the GS and get this over with.

 

i just wanna chime in here on the styling of the new GS, 4G TL or any car

Every body always talks a lot of smack when a new car body is introduced, but before you know it... people love it..

when the 3G TL came out, it got flamed by everybody on this forum.. only to turn out to be the most popular car on AcuraZine today!!.... The 4G TL came out, every body had something bad to say... but 2-3 years later, the car is becoming quite popular!!

Car Manufacturers like Acura, Lexus, Infinity, Audi, BMW etc... pay people millions, upon millions, to design their cars... the designers become innovatitve, stylish and try to make a car thats "ahead" of its time... this way, 3,4..even 5 years later, the car can still look "fresh" "new" or "up-to-date"

I'm telling you........... i dont like the new GS either that much (but i never liked the 4G when it premiered, and i've had two of them already!!)..... give it time, the car will grow on you


In terms of price... Lexus is worth the extra cash (if you have it).. because they do feel solid, ride smooth, and have some nice luxury touches that Acura lacks... but dependability... Lexus has TANKED in recent years....

Um.. the whole "Toyota Camry Gas Accelerator Pedal" issue, was brought to the Media's attention, because a CHP (cali highway patrol) officer and his family was killed, when the Lexus ES350 loaner (fancy Toyota Camry) pedal got stuck, and raced the car up to 120+ mph.... the passenger in the car called 911 before they struck something and died.


Toyota quality control is lost forever.... Acura is one of the few brands that continue to focus on reliability and quality.... and THATS why i keep buying them

I've had 4 TLs in 5 years.... put a total of about 120k on the 4 cars... never had any reliability problems... only bad thing, Acura batteries suck

my 10,109 cents

 

Remember the old tranny issue, some people I knew swore off Honda. It is now a distant memory. Toyota also is distancing itself from any perceived or real issues. Time heals all wounds. I looked at the es350. Great car. Frankly, just too sedate for me.

 

The hole in the donut of your presentation is in your haste to make a point you missed that its oblivious they are not talking about someone knocking down a $1M a year only having a Hyundai or only having an Acura.

If you look at the numbers, as you say you like to do, you might notice that the percentages of the eight cars you listed exceed 100%. This does not include all those other potential luxury or non-luxury cars that might be owned by a card holder. Or in your own words “...that leaves a lot of brands, even luxury brands, behind......”


Ya think a nice $1M Mom or Dad Black Card holder might buy a Hyundai or TL for his kid?

 

On the your TL being cheaper then your wife's Subaru. The TL 6MT lists for more then a Subaru Sti Ltd. You have claimed any number of times to support how close a TL is to a 5 series that Acura's dealers will not discount where BMW etc., etc. do.

Now you are saying you got a bigger discount from Acura then Subaru is giving so your TL is really cheaper then a Subaru. Interesting.

Then I guess since its cheaper then a Subaru its moved that much further away from a 5 series.

 

That's what happens when you bring up the "L" word in the 4G TL forum. I have a love hate relationship with my beak.

OP, if you have the money, get the Lexus.

IMHO resale value is a good determination of overall value, whether or not you are planning to trade/sell in the future.
I'll never forget the 2007 Lexus LS460 I saw at the auto show. I feel in love, that is until I saw the $85,000 price tag. Now there is one for sale at less than $40k here in Portland. My 2007 RDX was $38k new, now they sell for $25k. That is still over 65% of the sale price. Acura holds a better resale value.

Of course, if I had $85k in 2007 I would have bought a Porsche Cayenne, not an RDX.

 

Not at all!!....that is exactly, as you said, what the survey measure....obviously you can go over 100% because the same people can own cars of different brands!!! Whoever said that you can own only one car brand??!!

Any way you want to read it, 6% of this people of very substantial financial means bought Hyundais.....a percentage much higher than many other brands, including luxury brands.....if it is for themselves or their kids or their servants is another story.....that is the data and it is remarkable for a brand that was known only to build cheap econoboxes up to few years ago.....to be precise the survey specified cars in the household so this excludes potential company cars for employees....

So, again, 6% of these folks have a Hyundai in their garages....feel free to speculate who drives them in the family...

 

Now, you are taking this a bit differently than I actually implied any of it to mean, perhaps because you fit that description of certain posters here as well.

I'll say it again, if people who happily own other vehicles are so concerned with what Acura and the TL are doing and/or constantly having to justify their purchase against the TL, then they must be doing something right. That doesn't mean Acura and the TL could do no better or that things are perfect, but when all else fails, at least people gave a crap enough to want to like it more that what they don't or didn't like bothered them. It's when people have nothing to say that you should be concerned, as those customers are the ones who are truly lost.

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying but you are looking at it in a very general sense, I am looking at it in with specific elements of vehicle involved. I'm sure for most people that the number of units a brand sold (or how many they used to sell) is not the sole priority in buying a car. FWIW, I can't argue against your opinion on something so very subjective, it is just that, an opinion. That applies to how people feel about any car and it's style or design.

 

Human behavior is one strange science.

Due to the notorious 2G TL tranny problems, one would have thought that new buyers would stay away from the Acura brand and especially the TL sedans.

WRONG !

In fact, all these 2G TL tranny issues didn't put even a small dent into the overall 3G TL's sales. The 3G TL's had even consistently achieved all-time-high sales figures of >6K units per month, as if buyers all had short-term memory losses.

Therefore, if an auto brand is well known for it's excellent quality and reliability, a miss here and there is not going to drive too many buyers away from this top auto brand.

 

Yes, it took me more than one month to take the TL down to the price I wanted....couple of phone exchange a week or so....finally the salesman I was dealing with "gave the customer" to a junior salesperson which was evidently more eager to close a sale.....I got it at the end of the month end of the year, best time to buy a car......if you use the search function, look for my first message on this forum...how I found hard to negotiate the price of my TL (I posted when I was still in the middle of the negotiation)......Acura dealers (I dealt with 3, but one did not have the manual even if it was pretending he did) seemed not that interested to sell a supposedly slow selling car....."sorry we cannot give you that price"...."Thank you anyway, call me when and if you can"

The Infiniti dealer in comparison was pestering me every other day, and the BMW salesman was definitely more insistent than Acura...."come to the office and let's talk....you really prefer the Acura??"

The Subaru STI we did factory ordered with the options we wanted and the color we wanted so not the same room for negotiation....and very limited supply of STIs in my state......



I have not doubt at all that I could have get the 5 Series with the same final heavy discount I got my TL if not even more.....so your comment "much farther away from a 5 Series" is without merit because I would have got a 5 Series significantly discounted too...and BMW does heavy discount like any other brands....

I always got my cars at below invoice......all it takes is time and patience.....

Acura did heavily discounted finally.....but they were hard to fold, it took a lot of time......at some point I thought I would not get the price I wanted (infact I had to raise a little bit my first offer)