09 TL-AWD/2010 TL 6spd vs 09 Audi A4?? A useful and civil discussion please
08-13-2009, 01:29 AM
#81
TL SH vs A4
0-60 6.5, 5.9 - 6.7, 5.7 5-60 6.9 - 7.8, 7.2
30-50 3.9 - 3.1
50-70 4.8 - 4.0
0-100 16.8, 14.7 - 17.8, 16.2
The first thing to say is the obvious that it was noted, therefore verified, that full brake torque was applied on the faster C&D TL run, assume the other too. Now the 3rd time I am posting this, so try to read and actually understand what I write before you jump at a defense. There is no way around it, if you brake torque the TL SH AWD it will upshift and drive in 2nd before shifting back down to 1st where you will loose valuable time at launch. Now up to that point most cars either allowed for it or didn't so when C&D came across the TL there is nothing there that would make them think they couldn't do it as it is allowed but the up shift is virtually undetectable. I think most will agree with me when you assume it is capable of doing and knowing how much a difference it makes why would you waste time trying to get a great time run regularly? You wouldn't, all of your efforts would go to trying to get the best brake torqued time. So for the record those times were a product of the brake torque and auto up shift as noted, so they are at least .5 sec slower or worse, as proven. And it's a half second from the 15.1's and the 14.8's not the 14.4 and 14.3 as that is the non brake torqued run, try to pay attention.
0-60 6.5, 5.9 - 6.7, 5.7 5-60 6.9 - 7.8, 7.2
30-50 3.9 - 3.1
50-70 4.8 - 4.0
0-100 16.8, 14.7 - 17.8, 16.2
The first thing to say is the obvious that it was noted, therefore verified, that full brake torque was applied on the faster C&D TL run, assume the other too. Now the 3rd time I am posting this, so try to read and actually understand what I write before you jump at a defense. There is no way around it, if you brake torque the TL SH AWD it will upshift and drive in 2nd before shifting back down to 1st where you will loose valuable time at launch. Now up to that point most cars either allowed for it or didn't so when C&D came across the TL there is nothing there that would make them think they couldn't do it as it is allowed but the up shift is virtually undetectable. I think most will agree with me when you assume it is capable of doing and knowing how much a difference it makes why would you waste time trying to get a great time run regularly? You wouldn't, all of your efforts would go to trying to get the best brake torqued time. So for the record those times were a product of the brake torque and auto up shift as noted, so they are at least .5 sec slower or worse, as proven. And it's a half second from the 15.1's and the 14.8's not the 14.4 and 14.3 as that is the non brake torqued run, try to pay attention.
Take a look at the difference in 0-60 on the A4 vs it's 5-60, a big difference in acceleration when you can't/don't brake torque, more than the normal. A higher trap usually lends to a better time so in the comparo's 15 sec runs, the TL traps higher but runs a slower time against the A4. That really makes a case for the brake torque issue because the time would be affected just like if you mis shifted at the track but not so much the trap because the distance is still the same. If the A4 was a marvel of gearing it would also have the trap to prove it, the TL is always going faster when it crosses the line so it is without a doubt a product of brake torque and high rpm launch ability, not power, torque or gearing. You cannot gear something to make it go faster without actually making it reach a mph faster but it can run faster than it's power allows with a good launch and great traction. Without brake torquing the A4 is really no faster than a TSX MT, 15's and 92 mph, it's the same.
The TL is clearly stronger up to 100 mph in nearly all cases, look it up. After, is where we see how it could use another gear, limitation of 5AT but not all that necessary considering the speed limit. The amount of variation in the tests leaves the 30-50 and 50-70 pulls a little inconclusive as no one really knows the exact parameters of this test to begin with. It could very well not do so well in mid acceleration but considering that the TL beat the A4 3.2 in a 45-65 pull on paper and it generally does well everywhere else, especially in low passing situations and top end under most conditions. It seems that something in the way it is run allows the 6AT to gain some advantage in the test.
The TL is clearly stronger up to 100 mph in nearly all cases, look it up. After, is where we see how it could use another gear, limitation of 5AT but not all that necessary considering the speed limit. The amount of variation in the tests leaves the 30-50 and 50-70 pulls a little inconclusive as no one really knows the exact parameters of this test to begin with. It could very well not do so well in mid acceleration but considering that the TL beat the A4 3.2 in a 45-65 pull on paper and it generally does well everywhere else, especially in low passing situations and top end under most conditions. It seems that something in the way it is run allows the 6AT to gain some advantage in the test.
Once again I provided proof how the A4 has better passing power etc with its 30-50 and 50-70 pulls and rather than accepting the facts you go back to assumptions and excuses. As i said earlier, research both transmissions and you'll see how this is achieved.
You agree about the variances in NVH but fail to use reason in that the TL is always tested on 19's with max summer tires besides what was already mentioned so maybe when considering all that, the TL is actually sound proofed just as well because it is of equal quality and wins interior of year awards because it only looks nice, would you say?
Interior of the year awards are nice and im glad the TL has finally won one(it shows their improving), but Audi has been winning those for years (including this year) and has been one of the benchmarks in the industry for some time.
Unfortunately for me being only 6 ft and 190 lb I need a mid sized for comfort nothing smaller will do, but I guess because you say Acura has not aimed the TL as a mid sized competitor, which it has, it's not actually a mid sized, regardless of size??? For what it is worth the TL has always been slotted in between the two segments but when the RL is gone or replaced with a bigger model and the TSX now being bigger and having a V6, essentially being a 3G carryover, what car is going to be the Acura mid? Also many RL owners have gone down to a 4G SH because it really isn't going down, last I checked it is basically the same car and that's a mid sized competitor. Look up Acura's 4G TL initial press release if you want to know where they market it, no offense, I could post it but this way you might actually read it before coming up with a defense.
I was showing that your comment was clearly wrong when you said "The TL is a mid level offering not even intended to compete against a small car and little engine that could in the A4"....As you can clearly see Acura has intended it to compete with the A4.
I found this comment the most interesting though..."Look up Acura's 4G TL initial press release if you want to know where they market it, no offense, I could post it but this way you might actually read it before coming up with a defense.
This is what i was referring to when I mentioned "Acura's own marketing release". I actually found and posted this in another thread last fall that you and others where in debating this same topic, so i really find it funny when you make that comment when i was the one who educated you on that topic/link last fall.
I respect your opinion but its one thing when you keep manipulating the facts at hand and another when you start manipulating one's words. I dont want to start going down that road and the OP has asked to keep this a civil discussion, so lets just say that we agree to disagree on this topic and happy motoring.
08-13-2009, 03:27 AM
#82
Unfortunately i am paying attention and once again though your using only assumptions and nothing else. Your trying to make C&D look incompetent in their testing and that you obviously know more than they do. I showed you how their testing was done and they obviously tested all methods, not just brake torquing to get the best result. I even pretended for you that C&D was wrong and buy adding the time difference to the 0-60 numbers it would put the TL in the low 5s M3 range which is ridiculous to assume for the TL-SHAWD. You need to stop looking at this in a bias way.
I could be wrong but i assume you have probably never driven a FI vehicle before. FI vehicles rarely perform well in rolling start tests due to the turbo lag involved. Like i said before if you actually drive both vehicles and have them both in D then step on the gas (like real world driving) you will actually see the A4 out accelerate the TL on a regular basis or at the least be very equal and most tests prove this (brake torquing or not).
Oh no, i do use reason along with the facts at hand. You tried to use excuses earlier about enviromental conditions etc (which are ligit) but you overlooked the fact that both where tested equally. Then again i see more excuses are being used while ignoring the test results.
Interior of the year awards are nice and im glad the TL has finally won one(it shows their improving), but Audi has been winning those for years (including this year) and has been one of the benchmarks in the industry for some time.
Interior of the year awards are nice and im glad the TL has finally won one(it shows their improving), but Audi has been winning those for years (including this year) and has been one of the benchmarks in the industry for some time.
So if Audi has been winning interior awards for years and they are a benchmark because of that and the TL won an interior award among all premium cars for Ward's auto then that means the TL interior is a benchmark and I am not sure if the new A4 won an award but if they didn't then maybe the TL is a better interior and if they did they are both award winning.
"The TL is a mid level offering not even intended to compete against a small car and little engine that could in the A4"....As you can clearly see Acura has intended it to compete with the A4.
This is what i was referring to when I mentioned "Acura's own marketing release". I actually found and posted this in another thread last fall that you and others where in debating this same topic, so i really find it funny when you make that comment when i was the one who educated you on that topic/link last fall.
Im not sure why, but i find Acura owners and sales people always compare their cars to a higher model than what it should be. You say that the TL is not even intended to compete with the A4 but the A6. Yet Acura's own marketing release specifically shows that the 4G TL is to compete with the likes of the A4. Of course if you compare a lower model to a higher one in a different class its going to look like a better value. Its like comparing a Buick Lacrosse to a 7 series because they have similar dimentions and saying that its such a better value.
I respect your opinion but its one thing when you keep manipulating the facts at hand and another when you start manipulating one's words
I dont want to start going down that road and the OP has asked to keep this a civil discussion, so lets just say that we agree to disagree on this topic and happy motoring
08-13-2009, 06:09 AM
#83
I feel strongly both ways
SiGGy I gather you've never sat in a 3 series or a C-class if you think you can say that BMW/M-B interiors are of better quality than the 4G TL. They are crap...total crap. The BMW, in particular looks like a morgue -- dark, stark and forboding...the M-B just looks plain cheap. Fit and finish is not even close to the Acura standard. Now if you want to talk about interiors I'd agree that the Audi interiors are clearly in a class of their own, but M-B/BMW??? File this under - GMAFB.
And lay off the drinking the German KoolAid. It's making you sound silly.
And lay off the drinking the German KoolAid. It's making you sound silly.
08-13-2009, 08:41 AM
#84
AZ Community Team
For one simple example grab any Acura door handle on the inside on a CLS to 3rd gen TL and pull on it from the inside when the door is shut. You'll see right away they didn't re-enforce the panel at the handle. The entire door panel flexes when you do this putting stress on ALL of the cheap plastic tabs that hold the interior skin on to the metal... Cutting corners like this over time and you end up with long term quality issues. Then try this in an Audi/VW/BMW/MB/Infinity/Lexus; solid as a rock. Has been for years.
This is simply not true. The door handle on any Honda or Acura use one or two ~2" screw(s) on the handle to secure the handle to the center of the inner door sheet metal. On the TL it is located directly under the bottom of the door handle as shown in the diagram.
It is part number #56. To suggest the door handle is supported entirely by the side plastic clips is entirely incorrect. I've replaced two Honda window regulators in the past year on a Civic and Pilot, both are very similar in the use of a nylon anchor that is in the center forward portion of the door which a self taping screw goes to to support the door handle.
BTW, I've also taken apart the door panel on a BMW recently and it's virtually the same approach with the plastic door panel clips and self tapping screws in the center.
08-13-2009, 08:48 AM
#85
AZ Community Team
If I was in your boat I would get the Audi over the Acura.
(everything past here is my opinion)
Sure Acura will always toss lots of *electronic* "features" in but it's at the cost of cheaper or less quality materials and engineering sacrifices.
I'm on my 2nd Acura, and they always suffer the same fates. Crappy factory tires, cheap exterior paint, cheap leather that ends up cracking, cheap brake design, and corner cutting engineering.
(everything past here is my opinion)
Sure Acura will always toss lots of *electronic* "features" in but it's at the cost of cheaper or less quality materials and engineering sacrifices.
I'm on my 2nd Acura, and they always suffer the same fates. Crappy factory tires, cheap exterior paint, cheap leather that ends up cracking, cheap brake design, and corner cutting engineering.
Also if Acura wanted to cut corners they could eliminate the double front wishbone suspension and go with MacPherson struts (like all BMW's). A double wishbone cost more since there are more components and attachment points on the chassis.
It's OK to state your opinion in this thread but try backing it up with some substance if you make a claim that Acura is cutting corners. The non-Nav radio display on the 3G is a great example of cost cutting engineering. It's a primative 80's/90's LCD segment display, it looks out of class for a $30K+ car. But to make a blanket statement that Acura has cost cutting engineering makes little sense.
08-13-2009, 09:25 AM
#86
Moderator Alumnus
Your TL has Brembo front brakes and you call Acura cheap and they made sacrifices, that makes no sense.
Also if Acura wanted to cut corners they could eliminate the double front wishbone suspension and go with MacPherson struts (like all BMW's). A double wishbone cost more since there are more components and attachment points on the chassis.
It's OK to state your opinion in this thread but try backing it up with some substance if you make a claim that Acura is cutting corners. The non-Nav radio display on the 3G is a great example of cost cutting engineering. It's a primative 80's/90's LCD segment display, it looks out of class for a $30K+ car. But to make a blanket statement that Acura has cost cutting engineering makes little sense.
Also if Acura wanted to cut corners they could eliminate the double front wishbone suspension and go with MacPherson struts (like all BMW's). A double wishbone cost more since there are more components and attachment points on the chassis.
It's OK to state your opinion in this thread but try backing it up with some substance if you make a claim that Acura is cutting corners. The non-Nav radio display on the 3G is a great example of cost cutting engineering. It's a primative 80's/90's LCD segment display, it looks out of class for a $30K+ car. But to make a blanket statement that Acura has cost cutting engineering makes little sense.
I started a thread on it wondering if I just had bad luck and the consensus was Honda builds shitty brakes. Some people chimed in and said every Honda (Acura) product they have owned has warped.
My manual transmissions shifts like crap, known issue on their manuals with the TL. The only fix is to change the fluid out for a GM fluid. Last Acura prior to this I went through 4 automatic transmissions.
My dash board paint failed within 9 months on my TL. Had to have it sealed with a product.
Acura's leather seats always end up cracking and peeling.
Again no product is perfect; but don't put Acura on a pedestal.
Last edited by SiGGy; 08-13-2009 at 10:08 AM.
08-13-2009, 09:31 AM
#87
Moderator Alumnus
This is simply not true. The door handle on any Honda or Acura use one or two ~2" screw(s) on the handle to secure the handle to the center of the inner door sheet metal. On the TL it is located directly under the bottom of the door handle as shown in the diagram.It is part number #56. To suggest the door handle is supported entirely by the side plastic clips is entirely incorrect. I've replaced two Honda window regulators in the past year on a Civic and Pilot, both are very similar in the use of a nylon anchor that is in the center forward portion of the door which a self taping screw goes to to support the door handle.
BTW, I've also taken apart the door panel on a BMW recently and it's virtually the same approach with the plastic door panel clips and self tapping screws in the center.
Sure it mounts to the door sheet metal; I mean it has to at some point. But that wasn't my point. My point was it isn't reinforced.
Pull on the handle on a TL. The entire door panel pulls with it. And I don't mean pull like your trying to break it. That wouldn't be fair; I'm not trying to unfairly compare.
Then try the same thing on a 3 series for example.
As well my door handles always never fit flush after 3-4 years with the cars because of this flexing. The top parts of the mold where the handle meets will no longer be flush after 3-4 years because of the design. They start to flare out.
I mean you can even see the door panel flex as the windows go up and down.
These are just differences I have noticed over the years; I'm not nitpicking. I still find the TL as a great value; but these are differences I have noticed over the years being in a lot of vehicles.
Last edited by SiGGy; 08-13-2009 at 09:41 AM.
08-13-2009, 09:37 AM
#88
Instructor
After having 3 BMWs, last one a 330i with Perf Package, I cannot wait to get back into a BMW again. Currently I own a 3rd gen TL, I test drove SH-AWD/Tech and then a 335i (335i was pretty basic with Sport package, Auto), I could not see myself in a TL again.
I agree with what was said in here, once you own a BMW, it is very difficult to go back and drive something else.
I kind of regret my decision of trading in a 330i ZHP for a TL, it was a mistake. TL is a nice, reliable car, but as far as comparing it to any BMW, I'd take BMW any day, even if it means it has some reliability issues.
I agree with what was said in here, once you own a BMW, it is very difficult to go back and drive something else.
I kind of regret my decision of trading in a 330i ZHP for a TL, it was a mistake. TL is a nice, reliable car, but as far as comparing it to any BMW, I'd take BMW any day, even if it means it has some reliability issues.
08-13-2009, 10:06 AM
#89
Moderator Alumnus
SiGGy I gather you've never sat in a 3 series or a C-class if you think you can say that BMW/M-B interiors are of better quality than the 4G TL. They are crap...total crap. The BMW, in particular looks like a morgue -- dark, stark and forboding...the M-B just looks plain cheap. Fit and finish is not even close to the Acura standard. Now if you want to talk about interiors I'd agree that the Audi interiors are clearly in a class of their own, but M-B/BMW??? File this under - GMAFB.
And lay off the drinking the German KoolAid. It's making you sound silly.
And lay off the drinking the German KoolAid. It's making you sound silly.
Making me sound silly? A 60 year old defending your purchase like Acura is equal to MB/BMW/Audi in terms of fit and finish and quality of materials used. You're redefining the word silly.
Acura was shooting for a tech savvy look on the new TL. Which is OK, but it's not really luxury with all of the plastic. The plastic holders on the doors really take away from any luxury appeal it had IMO. Not to mention cheap button feel and fonts.
MB/BMW are going luxury/class/sports not tech savvy. Real wood, multi-tone leather seats, leather wrapped door panels and dash pieces.
I mean Acura pretty much copied BMW's I-drive (not verbatim), also copied BMW dash layouts specifically the way the navigation is done. Leaders lead, others follow.
Difference between you and I; I state these are my opinions. You keep blasting back like what you say are the golden facts. Honestly, get over yourself.
Last edited by SiGGy; 08-13-2009 at 10:09 AM.
08-13-2009, 10:30 AM
#90
AZ Community Team
Sure it mounts to the door sheet metal; I mean it has to at some point. But that wasn't my point. My point was it isn't reinforced.
Pull on the handle on a TL. The entire door panel pulls with it. And I don't mean pull like your trying to break it. That wouldn't be fair; I'm not trying to unfairly compare.
Then try the same thing on a 3 series for example.
As well my door handles always never fit flush after 3-4 years with the cars because of this flexing. The top parts of the mold where the handle meets will no longer be flush after 3-4 years because of the design. They start to flare out.
I mean you can even see the door panel flex as the windows go up and down.
These are just differences I have noticed over the years; I'm not nitpicking. I still find the TL as a great value; but these are differences I have noticed over the years being in a lot of vehicles.
Pull on the handle on a TL. The entire door panel pulls with it. And I don't mean pull like your trying to break it. That wouldn't be fair; I'm not trying to unfairly compare.
Then try the same thing on a 3 series for example.
As well my door handles always never fit flush after 3-4 years with the cars because of this flexing. The top parts of the mold where the handle meets will no longer be flush after 3-4 years because of the design. They start to flare out.
I mean you can even see the door panel flex as the windows go up and down.
These are just differences I have noticed over the years; I'm not nitpicking. I still find the TL as a great value; but these are differences I have noticed over the years being in a lot of vehicles.
I pulled on my door last night the upper section does flex, the lower section does not. You gave the impression that the door handle put the full tension load on the plastic door panel clips. That is not the case.
I'm going for a drive now, I'll see how much my panels flex when the window goes up and down. Honda/Acura do some cost cutting in unusual ways that the vast majority on this site will never see. I.E. they use steel pipe which they cast iron over for camshafts' instead of casting the entire piece out of iron. This not only saves material costs but machining costs as well. Does the cheaper part make the cam any less durable or quality, no.
These discussions are informative, it just grows weary when folks make blanket statements about the quality of a BMW or a Lexus. Then both of those use MacPherson struts for front suspensions (some Lexus's and all BMW's) and Acura uses double wishbone on the TL, the MDX uses MacPherson front though. And yet folks make it sound like Acura cut corners?
In terms of the BMW driving experience, that I agree on. A E90 is superior to my 3G TL.
08-13-2009, 10:36 AM
#91
Moderator Alumnus
It's true that Audi builds some *true* luxury cars, but the A4 is not one of them. It's an entry level budget luxury car just like the TL. I see more A4s, 328s, IS250s, and C230s than Civics, Camrys and Accords.
If the OP can afford a *true* luxury car, then I think the best value car would be the 535.
If the OP can afford a *true* luxury car, then I think the best value car would be the 535.
Audi A4
3.2 FSI Prestige quattro
Total price
$ 55,075.00
Basic price $ 43,750.00
Options $ 11,325.00
One negative thing I found was (perhaps it was me) I couldn't get the 6MT with the 6cyl engine. Not sure what I did wrong.
Last edited by SiGGy; 08-13-2009 at 10:51 AM.
08-13-2009, 10:42 AM
#92
Moderator Alumnus
The door handle pulls on Honda's are extremely similar to BMW's, Hyundai's, Chevy's,... the door handle in the center has a stamped metal structure that has semi-hard/semi-soft foam cast around it, then has a hard/soft polymer plastic around that.
I pulled on my door last night the upper section does flex, the lower section does not. You gave the impression that the door handle put the full tension load on the plastic door panel clips. That is not the case.
I'm going for a drive now, I'll see how much my panels flex when the window goes up and down. Honda/Acura do some cost cutting in unusual ways that the vast majority on this site will never see. I.E. they use steel pipe which they cast iron over for camshafts' instead of casting the entire piece out of iron. This not only saves material costs but machining costs as well. Does the cheaper part make the cam any less durable or quality, no.
These discussions are informative, it just grows weary when folks make blanket statements about the quality of a BMW or a Lexus. Then both of those use MacPherson struts for front suspensions (some Lexus's and all BMW's) and Acura uses double wishbone on the TL, the MDX uses MacPherson front though. And yet folks make it sound like Acura cut corners?
In terms of the BMW driving experience, that I agree on. A E90 is superior to my 3G TL.
I pulled on my door last night the upper section does flex, the lower section does not. You gave the impression that the door handle put the full tension load on the plastic door panel clips. That is not the case.
I'm going for a drive now, I'll see how much my panels flex when the window goes up and down. Honda/Acura do some cost cutting in unusual ways that the vast majority on this site will never see. I.E. they use steel pipe which they cast iron over for camshafts' instead of casting the entire piece out of iron. This not only saves material costs but machining costs as well. Does the cheaper part make the cam any less durable or quality, no.
These discussions are informative, it just grows weary when folks make blanket statements about the quality of a BMW or a Lexus. Then both of those use MacPherson struts for front suspensions (some Lexus's and all BMW's) and Acura uses double wishbone on the TL, the MDX uses MacPherson front though. And yet folks make it sound like Acura cut corners?
In terms of the BMW driving experience, that I agree on. A E90 is superior to my 3G TL.
And since that top part flexes, after awhile that molding a the top of the handle slowly mushrooms and will no longer be flush with the door panel.
Try it on a 3 series.
I have a serious attention to detail and probably notice things that most people don't. It's not some huge issue really. It just shows the design differences between manufacturers; and what kind of thought and attention is put into their designs.
I have never found the back doors on the TL exhibit this behavior though. But they are much shorter.
Last edited by SiGGy; 08-13-2009 at 10:47 AM.
08-13-2009, 11:57 AM
#93
Ya, I went and priced an A4; and it can actually get pretty $$ with the adapting cruise control and upgraded 4wd systems. Not to mention wheels and other packages.
Audi A4
3.2 FSI Prestige quattro
Total price
$ 55,075.00
Basic price $ 43,750.00
Options $ 11,325.00
One negative thing I found was (perhaps it was me) I couldn't get the 6MT with the 6cyl engine. Not sure what I did wrong.
Audi A4
3.2 FSI Prestige quattro
Total price
$ 55,075.00
Basic price $ 43,750.00
Options $ 11,325.00
One negative thing I found was (perhaps it was me) I couldn't get the 6MT with the 6cyl engine. Not sure what I did wrong.
In contrast, I got a deal on the base 2009 A4 for $27500.
Last edited by cornelius; 08-13-2009 at 12:01 PM.
08-13-2009, 12:59 PM
#94
AZ Community Team
I'm 47K miles and still on the original dusty OEM pads and rotors, it's just hard to understand when someone calls Brembo brakes shitty and cheap. In terms of them warping it's more than likely your driving or service habits (water splashed on hot rotors or mistorqueing lug nuts). I know two other 6Mt owners, besides the enormous amount of brake dust both love their TL brakes.
There's been quite a few 6MT's that have gone through the transaxle rebuild. Mine shifts fine, probably in the majority but the 6MT synchro's could have been tolerance/machined better.
There are at least 6 3G TL's at my gym, all the dashes look about the same. Slightly faded, no cracks but Acura should have worked a little better on the polymer color agents and the vendor.
Your comments make accusations that Acura was cutting corners to make the products cheaper. If that was the cast single piston brake calipers are far cheaper than 4 piston Brembo. Likewise it's easier to build a engine subframe out of steel tubes versus having to TIG/MIG weld alluminum. Same goes for the limited-slip differential, and alot of other features. I've seen several things on my TL which make me cringe (as I've extremely detail oriented being a engineer). The sloppy wire harness routing, the large gap between the dash and the front door panel but overall Acura is still superior in building a quality product that is fun to drive, low cost of ownership and lasts awhile.
No one in this thread said they were perfect, but their reputation is still superior to many car manufacturers priced above them in CR and other publications.
There's been quite a few 6MT's that have gone through the transaxle rebuild. Mine shifts fine, probably in the majority but the 6MT synchro's could have been tolerance/machined better.
There are at least 6 3G TL's at my gym, all the dashes look about the same. Slightly faded, no cracks but Acura should have worked a little better on the polymer color agents and the vendor.
Your comments make accusations that Acura was cutting corners to make the products cheaper. If that was the cast single piston brake calipers are far cheaper than 4 piston Brembo. Likewise it's easier to build a engine subframe out of steel tubes versus having to TIG/MIG weld alluminum. Same goes for the limited-slip differential, and alot of other features. I've seen several things on my TL which make me cringe (as I've extremely detail oriented being a engineer). The sloppy wire harness routing, the large gap between the dash and the front door panel but overall Acura is still superior in building a quality product that is fun to drive, low cost of ownership and lasts awhile.
No one in this thread said they were perfect, but their reputation is still superior to many car manufacturers priced above them in CR and other publications.
Warped 3 times in 35k miles. I work out of my house, and hardly drive. And I don't race around like a moron.
I started a thread on it wondering if I just had bad luck and the consensus was Honda builds shitty brakes. Some people chimed in and said every Honda (Acura) product they have owned has warped.
My manual transmissions shifts like crap, known issue on their manuals with the TL. The only fix is to change the fluid out for a GM fluid. Last Acura prior to this I went through 4 automatic transmissions.
My dash board paint failed within 9 months on my TL. Had to have it sealed with a product.
Acura's leather seats always end up cracking and peeling.
Again no product is perfect; but don't put Acura on a pedestal.
I started a thread on it wondering if I just had bad luck and the consensus was Honda builds shitty brakes. Some people chimed in and said every Honda (Acura) product they have owned has warped.
My manual transmissions shifts like crap, known issue on their manuals with the TL. The only fix is to change the fluid out for a GM fluid. Last Acura prior to this I went through 4 automatic transmissions.
My dash board paint failed within 9 months on my TL. Had to have it sealed with a product.
Acura's leather seats always end up cracking and peeling.
Again no product is perfect; but don't put Acura on a pedestal.
08-13-2009, 01:25 PM
#95
Moderator Alumnus
I'm 47K miles and still on the original dusty OEM pads and rotors, it's just hard to understand when someone calls Brembo brakes shitty and cheap. In terms of them warping it's more than likely your driving or service habits (water splashed on hot rotors or mistorqueing lug nuts). I know two other 6Mt owners, besides the enormous amount of brake dust both love their TL brakes.
There's been quite a few 6MT's that have gone through the transaxle rebuild. Mine shifts fine, probably in the majority but the 6MT synchro's could have been tolerance/machined better.
There are at least 6 3G TL's at my gym, all the dashes look about the same. Slightly faded, no cracks but Acura should have worked a little better on the polymer color agents and the vendor.
Your comments make accusations that Acura was cutting corners to make the products cheaper. If that was the cast single piston brake calipers are far cheaper than 4 piston Brembo. Likewise it's easier to build a engine subframe out of steel tubes versus having to TIG/MIG weld alluminum. Same goes for the limited-slip differential, and alot of other features. I've seen several things on my TL which make me cringe (as I've extremely detail oriented being a engineer). The sloppy wire harness routing, the large gap between the dash and the front door panel but overall Acura is still superior in building a quality product that is fun to drive, low cost of ownership and lasts awhile.
No one in this thread said they were perfect, but their reputation is still superior to many car manufacturers priced above them in CR and other publications.
There's been quite a few 6MT's that have gone through the transaxle rebuild. Mine shifts fine, probably in the majority but the 6MT synchro's could have been tolerance/machined better.
There are at least 6 3G TL's at my gym, all the dashes look about the same. Slightly faded, no cracks but Acura should have worked a little better on the polymer color agents and the vendor.
Your comments make accusations that Acura was cutting corners to make the products cheaper. If that was the cast single piston brake calipers are far cheaper than 4 piston Brembo. Likewise it's easier to build a engine subframe out of steel tubes versus having to TIG/MIG weld alluminum. Same goes for the limited-slip differential, and alot of other features. I've seen several things on my TL which make me cringe (as I've extremely detail oriented being a engineer). The sloppy wire harness routing, the large gap between the dash and the front door panel but overall Acura is still superior in building a quality product that is fun to drive, low cost of ownership and lasts awhile.
No one in this thread said they were perfect, but their reputation is still superior to many car manufacturers priced above them in CR and other publications.
And actually you can design a single piston caliper that perform wonderfully on the street. BMW does it... 3 series, 5 series and 7 series all use single piston calipers, even the M3 (although not all BMW models do, but most of them). Checkout BMW's GVWR and stopping distances. Although a lot of it has to do with the time BMW spends engineering the weight balance of the vehicle too.
Ya, Acura is great bang for your buck; and the MDX and RDX are nice. But it's no luxury brand. Luxury is all about indulgence; Acura is all about cost savings. Acura does cut costs on ceaper materials/parts and design. It's how they get the costs down...
Last edited by SiGGy; 08-13-2009 at 01:30 PM.
08-13-2009, 02:59 PM
#96
Most of these complaints are more individual based problems and make it sound like German owners have none of their own. My take is that it comes with the territory on an Acura or Infiniti but shouldn't on a more expensive German but still does. A buddy of mine only buys BMW and everytime he does it goes back in for squeaky windshield, a few rattles, the badge always fades out, if it's not driven for a while the battery goes dead. Those are just annoyances they also have their fair share of reliability issues as well and it's not to say that Acura doesn't. Another friend has the base Cheyenne and it's quality is no better than the GM lego block interior in all honesty. A few bottons broke and the arm rest vinyl warped and his dealer experience was even worse. When you look at stuff like this and already question the extra dollar it makes it easy for me to decide. They can use better material but in a lot of cases the fit and finish is no better or worse and the bland designs don't have anyone really notice much difference anyway.
I am on my 2nd 3rd gen TL and I have had no problems as mentioned on either, I also might do a lot more maintenance then the next guy. For example, if you seal and treat the dash with good stuff you will have no problems. The warping rotors are a product of being of mis torqued and improper air inflation, I have an air pump and a torque wrench for that reason and it helps extend tire and brake life and ride straight and solid. The leather creases but it's soft and I prefer it even so but it needs frequent treatment because it's more delicate. You will prevent any major creases and it won't crack or peel. All of my seats look brand new with minor exception to the driver left side. My 6MT is flawless and is the best I have ever used to this date and that's no secret when it comes to Honda. Sure if you grind a few gears things may happen and if you change out the fluid to something a little better I hear it's a great fix but I don't see how that is an Acura TL only problem.
I drive my TLS agressively all the time and in excessive speeds on the highway. The chassis is solid, never does anything that discourages my confidence, brembos are strong and work much better than they feel and I find that a plus as I don't want a tugging feeling in a luxury sedan. Really is an amazing vehicle at price and considering it's a FWD and German owners feel the same way when thay get behind the wheel but the most frequesnt comment is the quality of the interior and how nice it is in comparison.
I am on my 2nd 3rd gen TL and I have had no problems as mentioned on either, I also might do a lot more maintenance then the next guy. For example, if you seal and treat the dash with good stuff you will have no problems. The warping rotors are a product of being of mis torqued and improper air inflation, I have an air pump and a torque wrench for that reason and it helps extend tire and brake life and ride straight and solid. The leather creases but it's soft and I prefer it even so but it needs frequent treatment because it's more delicate. You will prevent any major creases and it won't crack or peel. All of my seats look brand new with minor exception to the driver left side. My 6MT is flawless and is the best I have ever used to this date and that's no secret when it comes to Honda. Sure if you grind a few gears things may happen and if you change out the fluid to something a little better I hear it's a great fix but I don't see how that is an Acura TL only problem.
I drive my TLS agressively all the time and in excessive speeds on the highway. The chassis is solid, never does anything that discourages my confidence, brembos are strong and work much better than they feel and I find that a plus as I don't want a tugging feeling in a luxury sedan. Really is an amazing vehicle at price and considering it's a FWD and German owners feel the same way when thay get behind the wheel but the most frequesnt comment is the quality of the interior and how nice it is in comparison.
08-13-2009, 03:27 PM
#97
This is why people say that Audi is overpriced.
In contrast, I got a deal on the base 2009 A4 for $27500
It's no secret that the A4 3.2 was way overpriced as is the A5 3.2. That is maybe another reason the 3.2 is now gone in the A4. When I priced a 3.2 and when well equipped or equally equipped to a TL SH tech it was $50, the A5 is $54, for $57 equal I could have gotten an S5. I think now they raised the price for 10' and it costs $59. I am not suggesting that every Audi model is overpriced but the 3.2 was and is by far.
In contrast, I got a deal on the base 2009 A4 for $27500
It's no secret that the A4 3.2 was way overpriced as is the A5 3.2. That is maybe another reason the 3.2 is now gone in the A4. When I priced a 3.2 and when well equipped or equally equipped to a TL SH tech it was $50, the A5 is $54, for $57 equal I could have gotten an S5. I think now they raised the price for 10' and it costs $59. I am not suggesting that every Audi model is overpriced but the 3.2 was and is by far.
08-13-2009, 04:01 PM
#98
AZ Community Team
Brembo makes many levels of brakes. The calipers are fine, but the rotors are undersized and they warp easily.
And actually you can design a single piston caliper that perform wonderfully on the street. BMW does it... 3 series, 5 series and 7 series all use single piston calipers, even the M3 (although not all BMW models do, but most of them). Checkout BMW's GVWR and stopping distances. Although a lot of it has to do with the time BMW spends engineering the weight balance of the vehicle too.
Ya, Acura is great bang for your buck; and the MDX and RDX are nice. But it's no luxury brand. Luxury is all about indulgence; Acura is all about cost savings. Acura does cut costs on ceaper materials/parts and design. It's how they get the costs down...
And actually you can design a single piston caliper that perform wonderfully on the street. BMW does it... 3 series, 5 series and 7 series all use single piston calipers, even the M3 (although not all BMW models do, but most of them). Checkout BMW's GVWR and stopping distances. Although a lot of it has to do with the time BMW spends engineering the weight balance of the vehicle too.
Ya, Acura is great bang for your buck; and the MDX and RDX are nice. But it's no luxury brand. Luxury is all about indulgence; Acura is all about cost savings. Acura does cut costs on ceaper materials/parts and design. It's how they get the costs down...
Actually most of BMW's braking performance is large rotors (for thermal managment), decent brake pads (fade-resistant formula's) and large sticky tires to get large static friction coefficient. Nothing magic, but using single piston calipers is a pure cost savings engineering. The head of M-Group had to semi-apologize for lack of mult-piston calipers when they released the E60 M5 and the auto press made comments about the E55's 8 piston front calipers and 4 piston rear calipers. Multi-piston calipers provide better modulation and control, and lower unsprung weight.
All car manufacturers (in business) cut costs on cheaper materials/parts and design. It's how they get the costs down. That's the basic nature of the majority of for-profit businesses, if one wants to think only Acura does then fine we agree to disagree.
08-13-2009, 05:27 PM
#99
I feel strongly both ways
I've driven ALL of those cars.
Making me sound silly? A 60 year old defending your purchase like Acura is equal to MB/BMW/Audi in terms of fit and finish and quality of materials used. You're redefining the word silly.
Acura was shooting for a tech savvy look on the new TL. Which is OK, but it's not really luxury with all of the plastic. The plastic holders on the doors really take away from any luxury appeal it had IMO. Not to mention cheap button feel and fonts.
MB/BMW are going luxury/class/sports not tech savvy. Real wood, multi-tone leather seats, leather wrapped door panels and dash pieces.
I mean Acura pretty much copied BMW's I-drive (not verbatim), also copied BMW dash layouts specifically the way the navigation is done. Leaders lead, others follow.
Difference between you and I; I state these are my opinions. You keep blasting back like what you say are the golden facts. Honestly, get over yourself.
Making me sound silly? A 60 year old defending your purchase like Acura is equal to MB/BMW/Audi in terms of fit and finish and quality of materials used. You're redefining the word silly.
Acura was shooting for a tech savvy look on the new TL. Which is OK, but it's not really luxury with all of the plastic. The plastic holders on the doors really take away from any luxury appeal it had IMO. Not to mention cheap button feel and fonts.
MB/BMW are going luxury/class/sports not tech savvy. Real wood, multi-tone leather seats, leather wrapped door panels and dash pieces.
I mean Acura pretty much copied BMW's I-drive (not verbatim), also copied BMW dash layouts specifically the way the navigation is done. Leaders lead, others follow.
Difference between you and I; I state these are my opinions. You keep blasting back like what you say are the golden facts. Honestly, get over yourself.
Secondly I have no idea WTF you are talking about "different fonts." I just drove for ove 6 hours and I carefully inspected every button on the dash and the fonts match perfectly.
As for the issue of "opinions," yours are absurd, baseless and they just plain suck...mine are correct so stuff that in your pipe and smoke it.
BTW, just how the hell did a Honda/Acura hater like yourself get to be a mod on this board???
08-13-2009, 10:34 PM
#100
Perhaps my wording misled you; sorry if it did. But yes, the handle and door skin pulls out when you pull on it. Which definitely receives stress each and every time you use the handle.
And since that top part flexes, after awhile that molding a the top of the handle slowly mushrooms and will no longer be flush with the door panel.
Try it on a 3 series.
I have a serious attention to detail and probably notice things that most people don't. It's not some huge issue really. It just shows the design differences between manufacturers; and what kind of thought and attention is put into their designs.
I have never found the back doors on the TL exhibit this behavior though. But they are much shorter.
And since that top part flexes, after awhile that molding a the top of the handle slowly mushrooms and will no longer be flush with the door panel.
Try it on a 3 series.
I have a serious attention to detail and probably notice things that most people don't. It's not some huge issue really. It just shows the design differences between manufacturers; and what kind of thought and attention is put into their designs.
I have never found the back doors on the TL exhibit this behavior though. But they are much shorter.
08-13-2009, 10:57 PM
#101
Three Wheelin'
Siggy, honestly it is seldom that I agree with "mods" on ANY car forums but I agree with all your statements. My passion in life is cars, cars and cars. At the moment in my gargage/storage units I have cars that are worth more than most people will earn their entire lifetimes and I have to agree with you on every part. I bought the 2009 TL in May and I have a total of 600 miles on the car and I already sold the car. I literally could not stand to get in the car. To many what seemed like the best interior in the class, I honestly found it to be CHEAP! From the gauges of the speedo and tach to the "brushed" aluminum just felt cheap. The only thing that I loved about this car was the shifter, it just looked classy!! This was supposed to be my beater car but I just couldn't stand to drive it for a long time before I just got tired of the lack luster interior! When I get back from my vacation home I hope to pick up anoter toy for my garage!! Can't wait. But again, I definately agree with you about EVERY single post in this entire thread. Great mind's think alike! J/K
What? After only 600 miles, you already sold your car?! Well, I won't tell you what to do with your own money, but c'mon, you didn't even give the car a chance! Were you blind-folded during your test-drive? You rich bastards make me sick!
08-14-2009, 01:31 AM
#102
Even if I give the benefit of the doubt the A4 has the 30-50 and 50-70 advantage the TL still has the 5-60 therfore 0-60 advantage in everyday driving situations as well as being able to run 0-100 mph faster. In most cases that would leave the TL better in the low and high range for everyday and the A4 better in the mid to top end. So I would say the TL is a better city car and A4 a better highway based on what's on paper so it's fairly even becuase they trade off. No overall perfromance advantage for either based on the data here.
I think your finally understanding what we have been discussing in this thread. I only responded to you originally because of a comment you made back on page one.
"It's a classic misconception. Gearing and brake torque manipulation are in great favor of the A4 and are the TL's weak points. Aside from what's on paper, the TL is clearly the stronger candidate, with greater passing power and top end even if some numbers seem close."
Putting the facts aside that show the A4 to be slightly better in acceleration (which we obviously disagree on and have been beating to death), You agree that overall the A4 is still equal to the TL in everday driving with the exception that the A4 has better Passing power.
This is what the OP assumed and this is what I have said earlier also (with the exception that I think the A4 is also quicker). All I was trying to point out and prove was that "the TL isnt clearly the stronger candidate, with greater passing power and top end even if some numbers seem close."
When you then add in the fact that the A4 2.0T has better fuel consumption and is almost half (1.7L smaller) than the size of the 3.7L TL, you can see where the A4 actually has the overall advantage.
Last edited by cp3117; 08-14-2009 at 01:34 AM.
08-14-2009, 04:16 AM
#103
I still stand behind my own personal observations and I don't take magazine results as gospel. I won't dispute the comparo but I really don't like that fact that no other test has the TL that slow be it passing or from a stop but a few others and some track slips have the A4 at that time. I really would like to confrim C&D's report of that on my own someday minus the 19's on the TL and in multiple drive modes for comparison.
08-14-2009, 09:08 AM
#104
Moderator Alumnus
First of all, just what the hell does my age have to do with my positions? Can I assume that you feel 60 year olds have nothing to contribute in this arena?
Secondly I have no idea WTF you are talking about "different fonts." I just drove for ove 6 hours and I carefully inspected every button on the dash and the fonts match perfectly.
As for the issue of "opinions," yours are absurd, baseless and they just plain suck...mine are correct so stuff that in your pipe and smoke it.
BTW, just how the hell did a Honda/Acura hater like yourself get to be a mod on this board???
Secondly I have no idea WTF you are talking about "different fonts." I just drove for ove 6 hours and I carefully inspected every button on the dash and the fonts match perfectly.
As for the issue of "opinions," yours are absurd, baseless and they just plain suck...mine are correct so stuff that in your pipe and smoke it.
BTW, just how the hell did a Honda/Acura hater like yourself get to be a mod on this board???
I like Honda's and Acura's but they're not a BMW/MB/Audi; that's all I stated in this thread.
Acura = bang for your buck; not luxury. That's all I have stated and some of the design/engineering differences. I NEVER said Acura's suck or Honda's suck; in fact I said you can't beat the deal.
The problem here is you're so *blindly* proud of your Acura when I mention anything you consider negative you see it as hate regardless of the validity.
And sure you can compare entry level Audi, BMW & MB to Acura. But that's about it. Acura has no game past that. And again reference my engineering/quality of materials posts. And most of those "entry level" cars have options the Acura doesn't...
I purchased another Acura even after 4 transmission failures on my prior one, cheap leather (which persists today) and MANY other design flaws because I enjoy "bang for you buck" and the dealer I went too took great care of me. I spend most of my $$ on my hobbies, which isn't my A->B sedan.
Re-read what I said. I said IF you can afford the next step up go for it; everyone has different financial priorities in life. You seem to believe Acura is the final step in luxury compared to BMW and MB
Guy just because you find yourself buying/owning an Acura doesn't mean you have to be an ignorant fanboy of their deficiency's... Even my BMW/Lexus/Audi friends bag on some of the quirks to their own cars, but they don't get all bent out of shape about it like you do.
Last edited by SiGGy; 08-14-2009 at 10:38 AM.
08-14-2009, 10:02 AM
#105
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC - USA
Age: 82
Posts: 7,674
Received 2,599 Likes
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Wow, I can honestly say at this point you're simply a moron. Honestly... My comments on your age is you talk like a child, and argue like one. Instead of bringing up intelligent arguments/points you resort to name calling and ridicule. Which sadly I now have done in this paragraph; but this is my last response to you.
I like Honda's and Acura's but they're not a BMW/MB/Audi; that's all I stated in this thread.
Acura = bang for your buck; not luxury. That's all I have stated and some of the design/engineering differences. I NEVER said Acura's suck or Honda's suck; in fact I said you can't beat the deal.
The problem here is you're so *blindly* proud of your Acura when I mention anything you consider negative you see it as hate regardless of the validity.
And sure you can compare entry level Audi, BMW & MB to Acura. But that's about it. Acura has no game paste that. And again reference my engineering/quality of materials posts. And most of those "entry level" cars have options the Acura doesn't...
I purchased another Acura even after 4 transmission failures on my prior one, cheap leather (which persists today) and MANY other design flaws because I enjoy "bang for you buck" and the dealer I went too took great care of me. I spend most of my $$ on my hobbies, which isn't my A->B sedan.
Re-read what I said. I said IF you can afford the next step up go for it; everyone has different financial priorities in life. You seem to believe Acura is the final step in luxury compared to BMW and MB
Guy just because you find yourself buying/owning an Acura doesn't mean you have to be an ignorant fanboy of their deficiency's... Even my BMW/Lexus/Audi friends bag on some of the quirks to their own cars, but they don't get all bent out of shape about it like you do.
I like Honda's and Acura's but they're not a BMW/MB/Audi; that's all I stated in this thread.
Acura = bang for your buck; not luxury. That's all I have stated and some of the design/engineering differences. I NEVER said Acura's suck or Honda's suck; in fact I said you can't beat the deal.
The problem here is you're so *blindly* proud of your Acura when I mention anything you consider negative you see it as hate regardless of the validity.
And sure you can compare entry level Audi, BMW & MB to Acura. But that's about it. Acura has no game paste that. And again reference my engineering/quality of materials posts. And most of those "entry level" cars have options the Acura doesn't...
I purchased another Acura even after 4 transmission failures on my prior one, cheap leather (which persists today) and MANY other design flaws because I enjoy "bang for you buck" and the dealer I went too took great care of me. I spend most of my $$ on my hobbies, which isn't my A->B sedan.
Re-read what I said. I said IF you can afford the next step up go for it; everyone has different financial priorities in life. You seem to believe Acura is the final step in luxury compared to BMW and MB
Guy just because you find yourself buying/owning an Acura doesn't mean you have to be an ignorant fanboy of their deficiency's... Even my BMW/Lexus/Audi friends bag on some of the quirks to their own cars, but they don't get all bent out of shape about it like you do.
08-14-2009, 11:59 AM
#106
Wow, I can honestly say at this point you're simply a moron. Honestly... My comments on your age is you talk like a child, and argue like one. Instead of bringing up intelligent arguments/points you resort to name calling and ridicule. Which sadly I now have done in this paragraph; but this is my last response to you.
I like Honda's and Acura's but they're not a BMW/MB/Audi; that's all I stated in this thread.
Acura = bang for your buck; not luxury. That's all I have stated and some of the design/engineering differences. I NEVER said Acura's suck or Honda's suck; in fact I said you can't beat the deal.
The problem here is you're so *blindly* proud of your Acura when I mention anything you consider negative you see it as hate regardless of the validity.
And sure you can compare entry level Audi, BMW & MB to Acura. But that's about it. Acura has no game past that. And again reference my engineering/quality of materials posts. And most of those "entry level" cars have options the Acura doesn't...
I purchased another Acura even after 4 transmission failures on my prior one, cheap leather (which persists today) and MANY other design flaws because I enjoy "bang for you buck" and the dealer I went too took great care of me. I spend most of my $$ on my hobbies, which isn't my A->B sedan.
Re-read what I said. I said IF you can afford the next step up go for it; everyone has different financial priorities in life. You seem to believe Acura is the final step in luxury compared to BMW and MB
Guy just because you find yourself buying/owning an Acura doesn't mean you have to be an ignorant fanboy of their deficiency's... Even my BMW/Lexus/Audi friends bag on some of the quirks to their own cars, but they don't get all bent out of shape about it like you do.
I like Honda's and Acura's but they're not a BMW/MB/Audi; that's all I stated in this thread.
Acura = bang for your buck; not luxury. That's all I have stated and some of the design/engineering differences. I NEVER said Acura's suck or Honda's suck; in fact I said you can't beat the deal.
The problem here is you're so *blindly* proud of your Acura when I mention anything you consider negative you see it as hate regardless of the validity.
And sure you can compare entry level Audi, BMW & MB to Acura. But that's about it. Acura has no game past that. And again reference my engineering/quality of materials posts. And most of those "entry level" cars have options the Acura doesn't...
I purchased another Acura even after 4 transmission failures on my prior one, cheap leather (which persists today) and MANY other design flaws because I enjoy "bang for you buck" and the dealer I went too took great care of me. I spend most of my $$ on my hobbies, which isn't my A->B sedan.
Re-read what I said. I said IF you can afford the next step up go for it; everyone has different financial priorities in life. You seem to believe Acura is the final step in luxury compared to BMW and MB
Guy just because you find yourself buying/owning an Acura doesn't mean you have to be an ignorant fanboy of their deficiency's... Even my BMW/Lexus/Audi friends bag on some of the quirks to their own cars, but they don't get all bent out of shape about it like you do.
In relation to the thread the new S4 is now priced at around $45,000.
08-14-2009, 12:43 PM
#107
The new S4 is now moving down to a V6 to compete with the 335i.
Anyways, Im totally down for bashing the 4G TL, but it just bothers me that
some people try to put these entry level luxury cars in the same category as the
premium luxury cars just because the same company makes it. Im pretty sure
the S8 owner would be laughing his ass off at the A4 owner that thinks he belongs in the same category. Im also pretty sure a GT-R owner would be pissed that his
car is put in the same category as a Sentra.
This thread is about TL vs. A4. It's not about Acura vs. Audi.
Anyways, Im totally down for bashing the 4G TL, but it just bothers me that
some people try to put these entry level luxury cars in the same category as the
premium luxury cars just because the same company makes it. Im pretty sure
the S8 owner would be laughing his ass off at the A4 owner that thinks he belongs in the same category. Im also pretty sure a GT-R owner would be pissed that his
car is put in the same category as a Sentra.
This thread is about TL vs. A4. It's not about Acura vs. Audi.
12-10-2009, 12:11 AM
#108
.... .... .... ... ....
time to bump...
siggy reason being...you keep purchasing a TL
get a RL...
total different car and i can tell you....
fit and finish in this car is 10times better than the TL
kthnxbye
siggy reason being...you keep purchasing a TL
get a RL...
total different car and i can tell you....
fit and finish in this car is 10times better than the TL
kthnxbye
12-10-2009, 04:58 AM
#109
Safety Car
12-10-2009, 07:18 AM
#110
Grandpa
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Virginia, Besieged
Age: 68
Posts: 7,596
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One of the things that I noticed when shopping for cars (bought a 2010 TL SH-AWD 6-6 Tech on 11/20/2009) was that you had to spend quite a bit more money to get the equivalent of this car in any other brand.
It makes sense that Acura marketing is dropping the "Tier One" idea in favour of one that promotes parts of the Acura line as the only logical and sensible choices in a certain segment.
Performance is measured a lot of different ways. One way to measure "performance" is to gauge how well a car behaves to the standards that its designers have set for it, and how reliably it performs to these standards on the long haul of hundreds of thousands of miles.
I think that Acura has a market, and for people searching for that logical choice in a "luxury performance" hybrid market, their cars like the TL and ZDX could very well be the best thing to buy.
It makes sense that Acura marketing is dropping the "Tier One" idea in favour of one that promotes parts of the Acura line as the only logical and sensible choices in a certain segment.
Performance is measured a lot of different ways. One way to measure "performance" is to gauge how well a car behaves to the standards that its designers have set for it, and how reliably it performs to these standards on the long haul of hundreds of thousands of miles.
I think that Acura has a market, and for people searching for that logical choice in a "luxury performance" hybrid market, their cars like the TL and ZDX could very well be the best thing to buy.
12-10-2009, 03:49 PM
#111
The Sicilian
I think the difference between the Acura & the Audi is cost of maintenance and reliability. I think the Acura is going to be more reliable therefore cost you less to maintain in the long run whereas the Audi is not as releable and Audi parts are very expensive.
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