mr_rhino

Thought I'd share this with the community. Maybe something good will come out of this. Apologies in advance for the length.

Got our 6MT at the end of August (VIN 67xxx). Has the EL42s (TU2 version, which I understand is the later version of the tire) with manufacture date (wk/yr) 10/04 & 11/04 in rear, 25/04 and 26/04 up front. Currently have roughly 3K miles on them. Three vibe issues (all with all windows and sunroof closed), which others seem to have also observed to some degree or another:

1. Noticeable "thumping" (25-55MPH) for the first 3-5 miles, somewhat temperature-dependent, seems to be getting less noticeable over time. When new, was intolerable. BTW, since taking delivery, we're consistently losing 2psi/week in the front tires, 1psi/week in the rear (normally 35psi cold in front, 32psi cold in rear). At first I couldn’t believe it, but have verified using two different tire pressure gauges. Nothing like this on my other two vehicles.

2. Once tires have warmed and have been driven >10 miles, first vibration starts around 55MPH, goes away at around 60MPH. This also is becoming less noticeable with miles, and has become somewhat intermittent. Not felt in the steering wheel, but is heard throughout the cabin, and felt in the seat of your pants.

3. Once tires have warmed and have been driven >10 miles, second vibration that used to become moderate in the steering wheel (not like a side-to-side shimmy, but transmitted throughout the car to the entire steering column) and very strong in the seat of your pants, and heard throughout the cabin, starting at 75MPH and above. Like the other vibe issues, seems to be less noticeable with additional miles on the tires, and is not always repeatable. Seems somewhat more pronounced when decelerating from 75+MPH than when accelerating above 75MPH, regardless of what gear (5th, 6th, or N). At one point, it was so bad (900 miles on car) that we were about to turn around and head straight to a dealer while we were on a 1500-mile 12-day roadtrip.

Brought the car to the dealer last week for these and other small issues (i.e.- major intermittent brake squeal). Tech took a drive with me to listen; basically he heard/felt the same vibes, though as I indicated, the problems are intermittent, and that day they seemed to be relatively insignificant. Nevertheless, service department has ordered a new set of four EL42s (why couldn't it be something else without nylon belts?), saying that I have the "older" version (which I know is incorrect; the older version has a "PVC" inscription on the sidewalls, the newer has "TU2"), and that the current tires have flat spots. Will let everyone know what happens, but at this point, based upon what I’ve experienced, what I’ve read on these posts, and my engineering background, I suspect the following:

1. Flatspotting is a function of tire design ("twin steel belts reinforced by spirally wrapped nylon" on the EL42s), tire temperature before stopping, how long the car sat, and tire temprature once I got going again. I have BS RE950s ("twin, high tensile, steel belts with spiral-wrapped, jointless belt edge strips") on my ’94 Camry, and BS Winter Duelers on my Tacoma. Love them both, so I have no bones to pick with BS. Never detected any flatspotting on the tires on either of those vehicles. Looking into possibly replacing the EL42s on the 6MT with RE950s - awesome wet weather traction, extremely quiet (no road noise like the EL42s, though this could be a function of the taller - 5.25” vs 4” - and softer - H-rated vs. W-rated sidewalls on the Camry vs. TL), and excellent wear. Anybody had experience with RE950s on the TL? Any flatspotting? Quiet? Good road manners? Local Firestone/Bridgestone dealer (company-owned) may give us $80/tire credit for new tires, but would charge us $159/tire net cost (W-rated RE950) before mounting. Ouch! (By comparison, online best price seems to be $182/tire incl shipping)

2. Proper tire balancing is critical to ensuring that no vibrations are able to start up. It’s an engineering marvel that a car like the TL can be designed with the potential for such a good, comfortable ride, yet also be so well planted when doing some spirited driving. It is highly likely that the TL suspension can be modeled as a very-complex high order mechanical system that, under the right conditions, can become "unstable" (oscillate), which we may be observing as vibrations. Unfortunately, some of these conditions are outside of our control, like the quality of the road surfaces that we drive over. But others can be addressed, like the tire sidewall stiffness (a function of tire pressure, tire construction, tire temperature, tire speed rating, and actual sidewall height) which has an affect on the “tuning” of the complex mechanical system that we know as the TL suspension. But by changing the “tuning” of the suspension, we would probably only affect the speeds and temperatures at where these vibrations start to occur. If the suspension, which is likely untra-sensitive, is about to become "unstable", we need to take out whatever is causing it to become "unstable" in the first place. And that folks, IMHO, is probably the tire balancing issue. I won’t even pretend to assess responsibility for this, should it be found true. All I’m looking to do is resolve theses vibration issues so that my wife and I can go on enjoying the vehicle that we spent some good hard-earned cash on.

Most folks that have posted in this forum have either changed their tires with a new set, replaced them with another brand of the same size, or in some cases have gone to larger tires and rims of another brand, yet are still experiencing the vibration problems. Sure, there have been some isolated cases of success going to a different tire where the replacement tires were probably very well balanced off of the production line, and they found an installer that has significant experience (and available time) in properly mounting tires and didn’t need the capabilities of equipment like the Roadforce balancer (Hunter GSP9700).

But a local tire dealer/owner left me with a lasting impression yesterday after a long-winded discussion – he couldn’t see spending the money for a GSP9700 after evaluating it for several weeks – basically (my impressions) because so few vehicles are sensitive to critical balancing, and (I suspect) few customers really care about vibration. The customers blame it on the tires if it occurs, while it could have been prevented if the installers had allocated/spent more time to do a proper balance (this same installer/business owner, with umpteen years of experience installing tires - bragged about his zero-vibration truck with huge tires that he balanced himself – but how much time and effort did it take him - not the poor laborer in the back being paid somewhere near minimum wage - to get it set up right? Would that same time and effort be expended for the average customer? What about profits?), and it depends on who is doing the balancing (their attitude, training, and experience). Sure, we all know that it can be done properly without today’s fancy hi-tech equipment. Case in point - how did racing tires get properly balanced before the hi-tech equipment that is available today? Today, a properly-trained tire installer can properly balance tires with the right (hi-tech) equipment every time and relatively quickly(15+minutes/tire), but is it worth the store owner’s investment in this equipment, employee training, and extra labor costs if they don’t believe that it’s necessary, or that they’ll readily recoup the costs?

Guess what – I’m taking my busines elsewhere in the future, to someone that has the right equipment, the right attitude, and is willing to deliver quality service to those customers that are willing to spend an extra dime to get the job done right the first time. After reviewing the success of those that have taken the Roadforce balancing route in this forum, I’m setting up an appointment to bring my 6MT to an installer that has a GSP9700 and uses it every day. I’ll let everyone know how I make out. One estimate is that for 4 tires it will run $75-$150, depending on whether the tires are currently “workable” in their current position on the rims. For the record, I don’t work for (nor am I affiliated with) Hunter. Check this link for a local installer near you: http://209.176.154.132/pub/search/findgsp9700.cfm. If you follow this route, please post your successes or failures in resolving your vibration issues to let others know.

Good luck to all.

Rhino

GTFISH

Look at the threads in my profile. The issue is not just the tires but a harmonic vibration that is endemic to the 04 model. Hopefully it is fixed in the 05 model.

dcarlinf1

The vibrations are trivial once you get good tires and have them balanced properly. Points to you Mr Rhino.

Vanwall

Please advise on your results.

My problems are similar to yours. I have an August build TL.

lroche

Take a look at this thread

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...1&page=2&pp=25

Stewie

Oddly enough, I trashed a tire the other day. Luckily it happened about 1/4 mile from house so I crawled home ok.

When I took the flat tire off I was amazed that after that after less than an hour of being flat I was complete unable I get it back into shape no matter how hard I tried. I think its permanently flat spotted!

I think these tires are just very susceptible to flat spotting for some reason.

mr_rhino

Followup to my previous post:

After 4 months (and 5K miles) of living with the EL42s (TU2, or "latest" version) on our August build '04 TL, enuf is enuf. We have the BS RE950s on a '94 V6 Auto Camry and couldn't speak highly enough about them (except possibly just OK winter traction - but the Limited Slip and Traction Control, along with FWD and 6MT, on the TL may help out). Wife continues to take wet off-ramps with confidence in the Camry at speeds that couldn't be approached with the TL/EL42s. We considered the Michelins but current experience with the RE950s swayed the decision.

For those of you that have been Non-Believers regarding my hypothesis for the vibrations with the EL-42s.....Guess What?......NO MORE VIBRATIONS at 50-80MPH - PLUS - NO MORE FLATSPOTTING! Am I just lucky? Maybe, but maybe not. Not all Bridgestones are bad, just the ones that are in their economy line. Once I located a local tire installer that uses the Hunter Roadforce GSP9700 for ALL of their balancing, I discussed the TL vibe issue with them, and ordered four RE950s. If I had supplied the tires, it would have cost $110 for all four to be mounted and properly balanced. Their senior guy (Bryan) had everything done in 75 minutes. I could tell that he wasn't rushing to get things done...he understood my issues and wanted to get everything just right. He only had to remount one of the four tires that wouldn't initially balance to his satisfaction.

I told them that I would predict that close to ten more TL owners with vibe problems in northern NJ would likely soon make their way to them, based upon the success of my tire replacement. PM me if anyone wants contact info for this (highly-recommended) installer.

The pleasure of a vibe-free (and less road-noise to boot!) ride in this car (even at 40F) has to be experienced. It's a shame that one needs to spend additional money on a brand new car to make it truly enjoyable, but at least I wouldn't consider it a lemon due to inherent faults that aren't readily correctable. Things could change as we put more miles on the car/tires, or as the weather gets warmer. I'll be sure to post any issues that pop up (if any), but as of now, my recommendations:

1. Replace the EL42s completely (forget the newer TU2 version). Base your selection on the road conditions you drive in and your comfort level in driving in adverse weather. Consider the reputation and quality control that a manufacturer has, and if they actually manufacture the tires or contract out for someone else to make the tire for them. If cost is a major consideration, then weigh against things like occupant safety, driver confidence, tread life, and likelihood of readily finding a replacement if you experience a blowout when traveling away from home. Do your homework, and you'll be happy with your decision.

2. Find a local tire installer that is willing to work with you, and respects the fact that your TL rims cost a fortune to replace. Have them show you their install process for expensive aluminum rims.

3. Get the replacement tires balanced on a Hunter Roadforce GSP9700 by someone that uses it daily.

4. Tell your dealer and Acura of your success. Send it in writing (unfortunately verbal has a way of never making it past the person you're talking to, unless it's a higher level person). It might shock them that someone isn't just contacting them to complain, but instead to (possibly) make their job easier.

Best of Luck to all that go this route-
Rhino

lbbrando

I noticed that the nissan maxima has the same tire.
Has anyone heard of this car having the same problem.
If it doesn't then I guess it's the car huh.

johnstl

wr_rhino...Thanks for the info. I have a very slight vibration 45-65MPH and again at 80-85MPH. You have done your homework and I will start checking around the San Diego area to have this done! The vibaration does bother me but I still love the car. I want to love it MORE!

Brewmaster

Mr Rhino - Thanks for the info. Even though I'm not having issues (aside from road noise) with the EL42s yet, I appreciate the time you took to a) list your concerns, b) follow-up with your solutions ... rep points for all your hard work!!

3PUTT

i fixed my "shimmy" by hand tightening the lugnuts. that is a nice and simple solution that you may want to try. it worked for me....

Ken7

Rhino, what did he charge you for the tires and what was their rating? I know in my area some dealers won't even consider selling & mounting a tire that is rated less than what Acura calls for. I think they feel they'll wind up with too much in the way of liability issues. Also, now that it's much colder, are you still experiencing no flat-spotting?

svtmike

The EL42 on the TL is "specially designed" for the TL, so it's not exactly the same tire as is found on the Max. I shudder to think of what those tires would have been like without the special design work.

Mike

gbriank

Mike:

I think the thumb nail image you have up (hand with rubber glove) says it all..... Bridgestone sux!

dheel

[QUOTE=mr_rhino]Followup to my previous post:

After 4 months (and 5K miles) of living with the EL42s (TU2, or "latest" version) on our August build '04 TL, enuf is enuf. We have the BS RE950s on a '94 V6 Auto Camry and couldn't speak highly enough about them (except possibly just OK winter traction - but the Limited Slip and Traction Control, along with FWD and 6MT, on the TL may help out). Wife continues to take wet off-ramps with confidence in the Camry at speeds that couldn't be approached with the TL/EL42s. We considered the Michelins but current experience with the RE950s swayed the decision.

For those of you that have been Non-Believers regarding my hypothesis for the vibrations with the EL-42s.....Guess What?......NO MORE VIBRATIONS at 50-80MPH - PLUS - NO MORE FLATSPOTTING!



Did you get the RE950's in the H or W speed rating? Are you still not having any flatspotting with these, even after setting for a few days at a time?

mr_rhino

Update regarding our new RE950's:

Tires are W-rated. With that speed rating, sidewalls are significantly stiffer (and shorter) than the H-rated 950s on our camry. Recent research on the web indicates that since Firestone's issue with blowouts due to underinflated tires on the Ford Explorers, government standards have been revised to ensure that sidewalls remain adequately stiff (and heat-resistant) at less-than-normal tire pressures. It's a shame that because people aren't diligent enough to regularly check their tire pressure, and then they try to drive their SUV in the same manner as a much-lower (and lighter) car, that standards have to be "improved" to ensure safety for everyone. Well, now every tire manufacturer's only real choice is to incorporate spiral-wrapped nylon around the steel belts, with the result that ALL tires now flat-spot to some degree or another, like the bias-ply tires that used nylon many decades ago. Stiff, short sidewalls, like those on the TL, telegraph that vibration to the car better than softer, taller sidewalls from tires of the past decade. Yes, after having put nearly 2K miles on the new tires, we've noticed some flatspotting and ocassionally some vibration (mainly depending upon roadway material and surface finishing), but nowhere near the same degree as the EL42s. (But talk about holding the road under wet conditions! And also much quieter.) Others have also mentioned success with proper torquing of the wheel lugs. Slightly lower (or higher) tire pressure may improve things too, which I'll experiment with over the next couple of months.

Points to consider:

1. Forget about zero flatspotting with today's tires. Some are better than others.

2. Roadforce balancing works, probably with more noticeable improvement on tires (and rims) of lesser build quality (up to a point; some poor examples can't be adequately balanced on even a Roadforce Balancer).

3. If you want a cushy, super-quiet ride, consider getting 16 inch rims rather than 17 inch or larger. You'll trade off handling performance and appearance to get that cushy ride though. Or maybe a Lexus. Whatever floats your boat. It's all a matter of what's important to you.

4. Bridgestone is one of the few companies that actually makes their own tires, as opposed to contracting the build out to someone else. If someone feels that another manufacturer is better, it would be of value to the community to support their opinion with something other than "BS sux!"

5. Even the BMW 500 and 700 series cars have/currently use(d) the EL42s. Don't know what the aspect ratio was on those vehicles. Some folks have had zero issues with the EL42s on those vehicles. Just something else to confuse the issue.

CCns24

I took a new 05 TL out for a test drive last night and immediatly noticed the vibrations. It seemed to happen around 40-45 mph. Thanks for the write up on this issue. Now I know what to expect when I get my TL.

TL Fantasy

Not really...I've had it 3 months and was considering selling it because of the persistent vibration at 55+ mph, numerous rattles, and a ride so rough I thought I had cracked a tooth. However, thanks to the information in these forums and a receptive, straightforward, no nonsense service rep and manager at Palm Beach Acura, I'm driving what seems like a totally different vehicle.

All was fixed in one overnight visit to the service department. Told them the issues, the car was evaluated and when I picked it up the next day...I left 100% rattle free and riding much smoother thanks to a new rear strut and one new rim. Both of which were defective and covered under warranty.

The steering wheel vibe was now barely noticeable and the handling was much improved. The service rep acknowledged the EL42 tire issue and admitted these tires, in his opinion, "were a mistake at the factory for this car". Considering all the info on the forums, I wasn't even going to try to approach the topic of replacing the tires. I just got rid of those OEM POS tires, and put on some Falken 512's and WOW, what a difference!!! Now rides like it's on rails and NOT A VIBE TO BE FOUND!!!