How to interpret alignment readings?
04-24-2012, 12:32 AM
#1
How to interpret alignment readings?
jumped on Firestone lifetime alignment today and had my first alignment done.. above is the print out after the alignment.. I have no clue how to interpret it. I asked the tech and basically he explained to me that if the arrows stay within the line that he drew then the alignment is good?
how i feel: Before the alignment the car pulled to the left... after the alignment the car still pulled to the left but less aggressive..
would anyone be able to help me understand those numbers and pictures better? is there anything in particular i need to look at for every alignment? thanks in advance!!!
how i feel: Before the alignment the car pulled to the left... after the alignment the car still pulled to the left but less aggressive..
would anyone be able to help me understand those numbers and pictures better? is there anything in particular i need to look at for every alignment? thanks in advance!!!
04-24-2012, 03:26 AM
#2
for toe setting all around, you want it to be 0.00
and camber, for example: left rear should be BETWEEN -0.5 and -1.5, and yours is -1.6
there are no rear camber adjustment tho. If I were you, i'd get a camber kit to bring it within spec because left is -1.6 while right is -0.8
ALSO... i would take it back, or go somewhere else, because it seems they didn't do any adjustment for toe
04-24-2012, 07:09 AM
#3
Instructor
^^^ this.
when I have mine alignments done, toe is at 0.00. I cant say thats why your car is pulling though.
Like stated, camber isnt adjustable on these cars without aftermarket parts, and other than your rr (which is only .1 away from being within factory specs), the alignment looks pretty good other than the tech being lazy and just getting it "within specs" for toe.
hows tire wear on that rr? are the 2 front tires wore pretty evenly between sides?
when I have mine alignments done, toe is at 0.00. I cant say thats why your car is pulling though.
Like stated, camber isnt adjustable on these cars without aftermarket parts, and other than your rr (which is only .1 away from being within factory specs), the alignment looks pretty good other than the tech being lazy and just getting it "within specs" for toe.
hows tire wear on that rr? are the 2 front tires wore pretty evenly between sides?
04-24-2012, 05:04 PM
#4
for toe setting all around, you want it to be 0.00
and camber, for example: left rear should be BETWEEN -0.5 and -1.5, and yours is -1.6
there are no rear camber adjustment tho. If I were you, i'd get a camber kit to bring it within spec because left is -1.6 while right is -0.8
ALSO... i would take it back, or go somewhere else, because it seems they didn't do any adjustment for toe
^^^ this.
when I have mine alignments done, toe is at 0.00. I cant say thats why your car is pulling though.
Like stated, camber isnt adjustable on these cars without aftermarket parts, and other than your rr (which is only .1 away from being within factory specs), the alignment looks pretty good other than the tech being lazy and just getting it "within specs" for toe.
hows tire wear on that rr? are the 2 front tires wore pretty evenly between sides?
when I have mine alignments done, toe is at 0.00. I cant say thats why your car is pulling though.
Like stated, camber isnt adjustable on these cars without aftermarket parts, and other than your rr (which is only .1 away from being within factory specs), the alignment looks pretty good other than the tech being lazy and just getting it "within specs" for toe.
hows tire wear on that rr? are the 2 front tires wore pretty evenly between sides?
04-24-2012, 07:41 PM
#5
You need to get a camber kit. anything with more than a .5 camber split can cause a pull. With your rear so far out, the back of the vehicle is wanting to go the opposite direction as the front, hence the pull. It's called dog walking.
04-24-2012, 10:17 PM
#7
Sigh. Look at the total toe. If you don't know what you're looking at, refrain from commenting and throwing some technician under the bus when they did nothing wrong.
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04-24-2012, 10:54 PM
#8
^your logic makes no sense... so if one side was -.05 and other side was .05, total toe = 0, then you would accept those specs? :smh:
toe should be EVEN on both sides...not positive on one and negative on the other. If it was ME, I would have it redone for even tire wear. Choose what you want fry, im just giving OP my opinion.
Why pay for an alignment if nothing is getting aligned..
toe should be EVEN on both sides...not positive on one and negative on the other. If it was ME, I would have it redone for even tire wear. Choose what you want fry, im just giving OP my opinion.
Why pay for an alignment if nothing is getting aligned..
04-24-2012, 11:03 PM
#9
Instructor
heh. i wouldnt worry about camber. -1.6 isn't bad. no need for a camber kit. what would drive me nuts is the rear toe settings. i bet combination of the lopsided camber and rear toe adjustments pointing left is causing that pull.
04-24-2012, 11:50 PM
#11
seems like they fixed up the front but for the rear they kinda made it worse, especially for the rear toes. the rear cambers were not fixed i think because you can't fix rear camber without aftermarket parts.
now that i have a better understanding of this I'll make sure they do it right next time.
thank you so much yall
now that i have a better understanding of this I'll make sure they do it right next time.
thank you so much yall
04-25-2012, 11:09 AM
#13
Okay starting over from the original question, here is my take...
Front: They brought the toe within spec, but it would have been better to get them even. LF has slight toe-out, RF has slight toe-in. This means your steering wheel will be slightly off center to the right, and you will be driving -.02 of total toe out. It is better than before (+.27 toe-in), but you generally want to err on the side of toe-in for stability sake.
Rear: IMO they did some odd stuff in the rear (maybe for the crown). They left the car with the same amount of toe-out in the back, but only altered the thrust angle. All this did was bring the ass of the car more (twice as far) to the right than it already was. And keeping that toe out tends to contribute to the car feeling unstable. When I switched from toe-out like that to a little toe-in, the car felt much better and stopped following lines & ruts in the road so much. Keep in mind this car was originally designed with a 0.16* (+/- 0.16*) of total toe-in in the rear as standard. Honda changed this due to a tire-wear issue that resulted from people loading up the rear of the car. Under load like that, the suspension compresses and toes-in even further which eating up the tires. That's when Honda switched to larger/stiffer rear bump-stops and zero toe-in. You can put your money on the fact the car probably HANDLES better with toe-in in the rear. Ideally you would keep it between +0.01 and +0.16.
Pull: Now your rear camber issue is probably causing the pull to the left. You have one tire tiled in twice as much as the other. Just like on a motor cycle, a tilted tire wants to turn in the direction of the lean, and your LR is pushing twice as hard as your RR. This will push the rear of the car to the right, which will steer the car to the left.
Suggestion: try loosening the chassis bolts on your rear subframe and giving it some good whacks/shoves to the right. This might help to even out the camber in the back. After you do this, head back and get another alignment. This time talk to the alignment tech and specify he errs on the side of very slight toe-in for both front & rear trying to get close to zero as he can. Hopfully this helps. Since you have lifetime alignment, you've got nothing to loose. Also see if he'll let you sit in the drivers seat while he works. This makes your cars weight distribution more accurate.
Just do your best to make friends over there. You're completely at their mercy...
Front: They brought the toe within spec, but it would have been better to get them even. LF has slight toe-out, RF has slight toe-in. This means your steering wheel will be slightly off center to the right, and you will be driving -.02 of total toe out. It is better than before (+.27 toe-in), but you generally want to err on the side of toe-in for stability sake.
Rear: IMO they did some odd stuff in the rear (maybe for the crown). They left the car with the same amount of toe-out in the back, but only altered the thrust angle. All this did was bring the ass of the car more (twice as far) to the right than it already was. And keeping that toe out tends to contribute to the car feeling unstable. When I switched from toe-out like that to a little toe-in, the car felt much better and stopped following lines & ruts in the road so much. Keep in mind this car was originally designed with a 0.16* (+/- 0.16*) of total toe-in in the rear as standard. Honda changed this due to a tire-wear issue that resulted from people loading up the rear of the car. Under load like that, the suspension compresses and toes-in even further which eating up the tires. That's when Honda switched to larger/stiffer rear bump-stops and zero toe-in. You can put your money on the fact the car probably HANDLES better with toe-in in the rear. Ideally you would keep it between +0.01 and +0.16.
Pull: Now your rear camber issue is probably causing the pull to the left. You have one tire tiled in twice as much as the other. Just like on a motor cycle, a tilted tire wants to turn in the direction of the lean, and your LR is pushing twice as hard as your RR. This will push the rear of the car to the right, which will steer the car to the left.
Suggestion: try loosening the chassis bolts on your rear subframe and giving it some good whacks/shoves to the right. This might help to even out the camber in the back. After you do this, head back and get another alignment. This time talk to the alignment tech and specify he errs on the side of very slight toe-in for both front & rear trying to get close to zero as he can. Hopfully this helps. Since you have lifetime alignment, you've got nothing to loose. Also see if he'll let you sit in the drivers seat while he works. This makes your cars weight distribution more accurate.
Just do your best to make friends over there. You're completely at their mercy...
Last edited by 94eg!; 04-25-2012 at 11:12 AM.
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04-25-2012, 01:34 PM
#15
^listen to this guy, everything in there is exactly what you want to do. My trusted alignment guy gives me +0.1 toe in for improved stability. If you don't care about stability as much as tire life, try to have your toe set at zero.
Toe angles will always be a trade-off between tread-life and road-holding.
Edit: I type too slow, I meant listen to 94eg lol
Toe angles will always be a trade-off between tread-life and road-holding.
Edit: I type too slow, I meant listen to 94eg lol
04-25-2012, 03:23 PM
#16
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jwr0ng626 (04-25-2012)
04-25-2012, 10:59 PM
#18
and btw.. i heard that i drop the car with koni yellows and H&R sports then I would need to follow H&R alignment specs and not the stock Acura spec anymore? is this correct?
if yes can someone help me determine what is the specs for H&R sports, i bought the springs used and have no paperwork for it... thanks!!!
if yes can someone help me determine what is the specs for H&R sports, i bought the springs used and have no paperwork for it... thanks!!!
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umakemekissu (04-26-2012)
04-26-2012, 08:04 AM
#20
Instructor
^^^ exactly. always use the car manfs recommondations unless you know for a fact otherwise. regardless of how its lowered, you normally want to use those same specs for alignments.
all car companies have a spec range for thier vehicles alignments. most alignment shops just get your car within those specs unless you specifically tell them before hand that you want something different. above in the pix, its normally the little numbers on each side of the vehicles readings (first pic, upper left hand number the manf spec are 0.0 to -1.0 with the car being at 0.7). the alignment shops have programs that tell them what each individual car is, so when they put it on the rack they instantly know what numbers are needed for each car. normally they just get it in that range and ship it. honestly, in most cases that fine. with a car that has negative camber to begin with, a little toe (in or out) can be a lot more devastating to the tire. Even moreso with a awd vehicle as they tend to "drag" the rear inside corners in slow tight corners, like in parkinglots.
with modified cars, getting the alignment just right is a bigger deal, or if a stock car has somehting out of wack and its pulling like op stated, the alignment guy should try to adjust for that best he can (customer is ALWAYS right) instead of just getting it within specs. that or see if something is bent or like stated mabe jossle various parts around to see if they could get it closer. However, that would be my concern with lifetime alignments is that your car turns into the "of fuck this guy again" scenario and they just get it in specs and ship it when in all actuality, it needs a little more tlc.
all car companies have a spec range for thier vehicles alignments. most alignment shops just get your car within those specs unless you specifically tell them before hand that you want something different. above in the pix, its normally the little numbers on each side of the vehicles readings (first pic, upper left hand number the manf spec are 0.0 to -1.0 with the car being at 0.7). the alignment shops have programs that tell them what each individual car is, so when they put it on the rack they instantly know what numbers are needed for each car. normally they just get it in that range and ship it. honestly, in most cases that fine. with a car that has negative camber to begin with, a little toe (in or out) can be a lot more devastating to the tire. Even moreso with a awd vehicle as they tend to "drag" the rear inside corners in slow tight corners, like in parkinglots.
with modified cars, getting the alignment just right is a bigger deal, or if a stock car has somehting out of wack and its pulling like op stated, the alignment guy should try to adjust for that best he can (customer is ALWAYS right) instead of just getting it within specs. that or see if something is bent or like stated mabe jossle various parts around to see if they could get it closer. However, that would be my concern with lifetime alignments is that your car turns into the "of fuck this guy again" scenario and they just get it in specs and ship it when in all actuality, it needs a little more tlc.
04-26-2012, 03:44 PM
#21
Find out why the camber is different on the left rear, bent components, collapsed bushings, damaged subframe. If correction is costly, install an adjustable camber link on the left rear and dial it in to equal the camber on the right rear.
Following toe in degrees:
Set the front toe to the same spec each side -.15/.15
Set the rear toe to the same spec each side 0.0/0.30
Following toe in degrees:
Set the front toe to the same spec each side -.15/.15
Set the rear toe to the same spec each side 0.0/0.30
04-26-2012, 04:50 PM
#22
^^^ exactly. always use the car manfs recommondations unless you know for a fact otherwise. regardless of how its lowered, you normally want to use those same specs for alignments.
all car companies have a spec range for thier vehicles alignments. most alignment shops just get your car within those specs unless you specifically tell them before hand that you want something different. above in the pix, its normally the little numbers on each side of the vehicles readings (first pic, upper left hand number the manf spec are 0.0 to -1.0 with the car being at 0.7). the alignment shops have programs that tell them what each individual car is, so when they put it on the rack they instantly know what numbers are needed for each car. normally they just get it in that range and ship it. honestly, in most cases that fine. with a car that has negative camber to begin with, a little toe (in or out) can be a lot more devastating to the tire. Even moreso with a awd vehicle as they tend to "drag" the rear inside corners in slow tight corners, like in parkinglots.
with modified cars, getting the alignment just right is a bigger deal, or if a stock car has somehting out of wack and its pulling like op stated, the alignment guy should try to adjust for that best he can (customer is ALWAYS right) instead of just getting it within specs. that or see if something is bent or like stated mabe jossle various parts around to see if they could get it closer. However, that would be my concern with lifetime alignments is that your car turns into the "of fuck this guy again" scenario and they just get it in specs and ship it when in all actuality, it needs a little more tlc.
all car companies have a spec range for thier vehicles alignments. most alignment shops just get your car within those specs unless you specifically tell them before hand that you want something different. above in the pix, its normally the little numbers on each side of the vehicles readings (first pic, upper left hand number the manf spec are 0.0 to -1.0 with the car being at 0.7). the alignment shops have programs that tell them what each individual car is, so when they put it on the rack they instantly know what numbers are needed for each car. normally they just get it in that range and ship it. honestly, in most cases that fine. with a car that has negative camber to begin with, a little toe (in or out) can be a lot more devastating to the tire. Even moreso with a awd vehicle as they tend to "drag" the rear inside corners in slow tight corners, like in parkinglots.
with modified cars, getting the alignment just right is a bigger deal, or if a stock car has somehting out of wack and its pulling like op stated, the alignment guy should try to adjust for that best he can (customer is ALWAYS right) instead of just getting it within specs. that or see if something is bent or like stated mabe jossle various parts around to see if they could get it closer. However, that would be my concern with lifetime alignments is that your car turns into the "of fuck this guy again" scenario and they just get it in specs and ship it when in all actuality, it needs a little more tlc.
Find out why the camber is different on the left rear, bent components, collapsed bushings, damaged subframe. If correction is costly, install an adjustable camber link on the left rear and dial it in to equal the camber on the right rear.
Following toe in degrees:
Set the front toe to the same spec each side -.15/.15
Set the rear toe to the same spec each side 0.0/0.30
Following toe in degrees:
Set the front toe to the same spec each side -.15/.15
Set the rear toe to the same spec each side 0.0/0.30
04-26-2012, 04:52 PM
#23
gonna order the Koni's and seriously consider the Ingalls rear kit. $85/wheel is a pretty decent investment IMO.
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-tires-wheels-suspension-97/front-camber-kit-install-643459/
Looked at the DIY it seems pretty easy to install. But my question is after the installation of the camber kit, i would bring it to the alignment shop to have them realign as well as adjust the camber kit right? because i'm not sure how to adjust the camber kit
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-tires-wheels-suspension-97/front-camber-kit-install-643459/
Looked at the DIY it seems pretty easy to install. But my question is after the installation of the camber kit, i would bring it to the alignment shop to have them realign as well as adjust the camber kit right? because i'm not sure how to adjust the camber kit
04-26-2012, 04:57 PM
#24
Instructor
when i install camberkits. I remove old one and put it right next to the new one and match length and maybe add a turn/rotation before you reinstall it.
I havent seen the tl ones yet, but if it has a center piece that turns to adjust it, make sure you run both ends in and spin them both out equally.
I havent seen the tl ones yet, but if it has a center piece that turns to adjust it, make sure you run both ends in and spin them both out equally.
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umakemekissu (04-26-2012)
04-26-2012, 08:00 PM
#25
when i install camberkits. I remove old one and put it right next to the new one and match length and maybe add a turn/rotation before you reinstall it.
I havent seen the tl ones yet, but if it has a center piece that turns to adjust it, make sure you run both ends in and spin them both out equally.
I havent seen the tl ones yet, but if it has a center piece that turns to adjust it, make sure you run both ends in and spin them both out equally.
The Ingalls kit contains both the adjustable Camber and adjustable Toe rods so if the initial installation adjustment is close to the fatcory, this is a good starting point, but you'll need to have it put up on the rack to get it into spec.
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umakemekissu (04-26-2012)
04-26-2012, 10:26 PM
#27
Instructor
I always just try and get it as close as I can so the techs have less to do on my car.
was looking at SPC part numbers earlier and the TL uses the exact same kit as all the civics I have. Thats kickass cause I can just grab crap from inventory, lol.
04-27-2012, 06:04 AM
#29
oh ya 100%. Always realign when changing suspension components. Guess I should have clarified that. sorry
I always just try and get it as close as I can so the techs have less to do on my car.
was looking at SPC part numbers earlier and the TL uses the exact same kit as all the civics I have. Thats kickass cause I can just grab crap from inventory, lol.
I always just try and get it as close as I can so the techs have less to do on my car.
was looking at SPC part numbers earlier and the TL uses the exact same kit as all the civics I have. Thats kickass cause I can just grab crap from inventory, lol.
Here's some reading before the kit arrives:
http://www.ingallseng.com/Instructions/38725.pdf
Last edited by Turbonut; 04-27-2012 at 06:18 AM.
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