4drviper

So... I don't know what is going on but my car is being weird. Some might simply say "it pulls to the right" but it's not exactly that.
It feels like as if the car wants to keep the steering where it thinks is the center, but it thinks the "center" about 1" turned to the right side. So it doesn't pull forever, but pulls a bit and keeps tracking that way without pulling any further.
It ends up going in a verrrrry wide circle clockwise.
Does the thing toward right side on both lanes on the 2-lane interstate (left and right road crown)

I know my caster is a little wonky but it has been that way since I bought the car and it always drove straight.
Front has A-spec, rear has Type-S suspension. Front has Skunk2 Camber kit to introduce more negative camber, which hasn't been touched in 4 years, rear has SPC camber kit to reduce negative camber that also hasn't been touched in 2 years.

Camber -0.9 -0.8
Caster 2.8 1.8
Toe 0.00 0.00

Camber -1.5 -1.2 (was -0.9 -0.9. When I was troubleshooting rear noise 2 years ago I told the tech to make the ball joint sit straight, so he did exactly that, without bringing camber back to where it was... and it has been there without causing any pulling)
Toe 0.01 0.00

I don't think the small cross camber would cause a pull that noticeably makes my arm tired compared to driving a car that doesn't pull so I am lost here.
I was thinking maybe the new tech "pushed" the car while working with the jamb nut and somehow misaligned the car while it appears aligned on paper and threw the toe off while the advisor tells me it will pull to the right a bit because of caster, which it never did!

Any suggestions on where to start looking would be greatly appreciated.

fullboost833

That caster difference definitely will cause a pull moreso to the right. Tire wear will also cause the car to pull as well. Have you swapped tires around and also how are your front lower control arm compliance bushings?

4drviper

all new LCA bushings 40k miles ago which weren’t torn but I did anyway.

new Michelin PIlot Sport AS3+

fullboost833

Ok the caster for sure will cause the car to want to pull. Also 0 toe all around will naturally make the car more susceptible to wander with the slightest road imperfections. Id say try to toe it in more all around of course within spec and that should help but if you go again and the castor is still off like that then you might want to get arms to fix that. Now I say "see if its still off" as if it will magically change. Thats not the case. Some times things happen whether it be tech error or just equipment error (dirty target on wheel) and the machine can pick up a not so good reading. A good alignment tech should be able to do a before and after drive of the car to get a feel for what the car is doing then compare that to what comes up on the screen and if things arent right do a re-sweep. I know I do many factory and custom/racecar alignments.

fullboost833

I literally just put 4 new tires on and aligned my TL yesterday. Like you my caster is off as well in this reading but i always toe my wheels in all around to make the car more stable during straight line speeds. I can let go of my wheel on level, arrow straight roads with little imperfections and the car still stays straight.

4drviper

I understand your opinion about toe but according to the manufacturer the 3G TL is supposed to have zero toe all around, and I have driven it that way for 9 years and 120k miles and counting with no wandering problem, on and off racetrack. If you really do a lot of factory and custom alignments you should know that the bushing doesn't rip unless the driver loads it sideways fully then bump it, which is rare, which is why just as many people are reporting their compliance bushing is doing fine after 100+k miles which was also my case. I don't just swoop the car around without checking the pavement first.

I don't like the toe-in "stability" because it makes car dull.

But thanks for the discussion. It sounds like I should check for tire conicity since that's the only thing that has changed other than slight increase in rear camber. I shall report back...

fullboost833

Ok what does the car do on and off throttle. Does the car stay straight with the wheel centered coasting off throttle then on throttle the front end kind of shifts a "smidge" to the left or right then continues straight but the steering wheel is now a tad off center? If so then that's a motor mount(s) or transmission mount going/gone bad. TL's with bad mounts will cause a pretty noticeable sort of torque steer

WDPanda

My source or torque steer was the tires.

nfnsquared

That's news to me. Got a link?

4drviper

Ok I'm back from swapping wheel+tires around. No change. Exact same problem. I didn't suspect conicity problem from manufacturers like Michelin but I still did and eliminated it.

I have front and side innovative solid mounts which I put in myself and made sure to relieve any bind multiple times 6 years ago. (I'd call these "Gen 2." Gen 1 was the one with bushing deformation like XLR8 mounts IIRC. And now they have whole new design with beefier pieces, which I'd call Gen 3).
Upper transmission mount and rear motor mounts have been replaced within past few years and I just checked to make sure they're still not cracked. The only thing I haven't touched is the lower transmission mount which no one changes.
Sadly, car behaves the same on and off power, in drive and neutral. I do not feel any shift of the front end as you described.

zero toe +/- 0.08in. according to the service manual. ... yeah some people don't even read the owner's manual but I went through the first part(specs) of service manual on top of owner's.




I'm friends with an advisor at a Honda dealership and he told me they calibrate their machine every month which I believe because the readings have been consistent throughout 9 years except when a new tech messed something up once and showed my -0.8 -0.8 front cambers as 0.0 and -0.5 lol... When an experienced tech did the measurement again right after, it came out to be exactly where I set it 4 years ago so I know it is accurate.

Sidenote ------
It doesn't "change every time you measure it" like some people claim. Your height changes every time you measure but it doesn't go up and down by 6 inches.
When I jumped a curb, I took it to a body shop specializing in frame/unibody alignment to get it checked out. That place also showed the same front caster of 2.7/1.9. Different machine, different people, same readings. So if your alignment except toe changes from time or places, then you hit something or the place you took your car to doesn't calibrate their equipment as often as they should.
/Sidenote -----

My next speculation is .. my use of tire history.
Since I bought the car, I immediately replaced the worn tires with Continental DWS which are known to have soft sidewalls. That's when I first noticed my left caster is 2.7~2.9 and right caster is 1.8~2.0.
Next I used Nitto Motivo which also has soft sidwalls.
Next I used Cooper RS3-A and RS3-S. The A is all season version and had softish sidewall too. S was a little stiffer but by much and certainly not as hard as I expect a true summer tire to be. The grip was flesh-stretching tho. (braking or turning, i could feel my cheeks stretch out from my cheek bones)

Now I put on the Michelin PS A/S 3+, it is impossible to ignore how stiffer the sidewalls are. (Same tire pressure cold. 35 front 32 rear) I notice every paint markings on the pavement, every cracks, I'd even go as far to say I can feel the texture of pavement lol... without being uncomfortable of course. I will never go back to DWS not to mention the dry/wet grip being at least 10% better according to my butt accelerometer. And I love the razor sharp steering (for all season tires).

Is there a possibility that these "stiffer" tires are being capable of showing the caster problem that soft tires have been shadowing over for the past 9 years of use until this point?

And another question..
Does caster problem keeps pulling steering until you hit the lock or does it only pull a certain amount then stops pulling like mine is doing?

I will try to re-word my problem as I'm not very word savvy.
Steering tends to turn about 1" to the right (from top center) and wants to stay there as if it's the center. But since the steering wheel is turned, car goes right.
To make it go straight, all I have to do is hold the steering from turning right, right at the center. It requires me some force to hold it since it wants to turn right, but it doesn't want to turn right forever. Car wants to hold steering 1" to the right as if it was the center.
I'd say it's a little speed-dependent but considering the roads were different, I haven't tried going 20mph on a road where it's legal to go 60+ yet. It would be a violation of minimum speed but I'll do it when no one is around.

nfnsquared

I'm well aware of what the SM specs are for toe, but that's hardly a manufacturer's recommendation for zero toe. I have yet to know any alignment shop that recommends setting zero toe...

4drviper

Ohhhh that’s what you meant... since it’s a dealership I go to, they go “by the SM specs” which I ended up liking. It does twitch more compared to having toes in when going over the top of road crown (i.e. changing lanes on a 2-lane interstate with left and right crown. Georgia has right only crown).

One time I didn’t say a word and just went in to get an alignment after my sister threw the rear toe off and they set the rear toe in by 0.08 and I didn’t mind it since it made the car less susceptible to go off track from my input or road input, but it was still too mushy for my preference when turning.

So with your words, I’ll take the SM values as “you can have it anywhere within”. It’s just that when I started caring about these, I asked my old timer touge racer friend (in Asia, not here) who only drove FWD cars, he asked about factory spec, then said he set his at zero toe all around and recommended that I go with 0.00 and start from there. He was pushing 40 at the time and now mid 40’s and retired from mountain carving, says he doesn’t know anything anymore.
But I actually liked it for the balance of fun and stability so didn’t think twice about toe-in. When I experimented with toe out, the car was like a hyper little dog panting “DO WE TURN NOW? NOW? NOW?”

And I don’t know if it plays a role but I wanted the absolute maximum tire life.

Could you help me understand why you think the SM’s median value is hardly the recommended spec? Maybe I can use asymmetrical toe to offset this issue... maybe. I actually tried drawing some free body diagram of my car and lower control arm attaching points to see which side I would have to make toe in to compensate but didn’t think it would help the steering having tendency to lean to one side.

I learned a lot from your posts from here and other forums so thanks for those & in advance.

fullboost833

Like @4drviper posted 0 toe is actually what acura dictated as the optimum toe angle for the TL. Miatas, mostly all Subaru's, Evos and quite a long list of cars actually have 0 toe as the optimum toe angle or within the allowed range of toe angle as set per the manufacturer. Typical alignment shops will only set an alignment based on what is within the allowed range and will not go outside of that for liability reasons. Alignment shops that specialize in race cars or do custom alignment specs will do 0 toe all day long as that is the toe angle most circuit, auto-x drivers prefer for more favorable turn in response.

@4drviper How did you change your tires front to back or left to right? Maybe get the tires road force balanced and see if that helps. I still dont agree with such a large caster difference but you know the car and if it stayed straight before then it should continue to stay straight.

fullboost833

Funny you mention that as I had the same perception with Michellin BUT I had one case...a super rare case with some Pilot Sport 4s where the tire roll out was different across the 2 rear tires and made the car go one direction off throttle and the other direction on throttle.

kpayne111

I have a weird issue myself. My car was very darty over bumps and wants to follow an embankment at highway speeds (Ie. Wants to pull left in left lane on freeway). Getting an alignment fixed darting problem but latter problem still exists though not quite as bad. Also seems very easy to turn left but harder to turn right, almost as if the power steering keeps wanting to turn itself left. All suspension and steering components seem good. I'm gonna flush power steering with honda fluid (topped up with generic stp after doing timing belt) as well as change inlet and outlet orings on the pump and see if this changes anything. Otherwise I'm not sure what else it could be 🤔

nfnsquared

Again, I don't know of any official Acura recommendation for zero toe as the standard. Zero toe is fine, but on crowned roads which most of us drive on, a little toe in is what most alignment shops recommend.

fullboost833

Me and @4drviper both posted pics of the factory specs for the TL.

This is my first pic in the thread. The 2 circled numbers are maximum toe in and toe out. Max toe in is 1/32" and max toe out is -1/32". Within that range 0" toe has to be dead center which would be the optimum alignment spec from acura. This is a Hunter Hawkeye Elite btw

nfnsquared

Sigh.....

fullboost833

Give us an example of another make and model vehicle with the manufacturers' "recommendation of 'x' degrees or 'y' inches of toe as standard" to better understand what you are asking.

4drviper

Let's not go off topic. To be honest, most of the things you suggested except tires was related to the problem yet you keep posting stuff. And you just lost all credibility to me when you brought up balacing the tires. The equation that explains why tires needs to be balanced has nothing to do with the problem I experience.


My question is, and has been, WHY my car starts pulling when it's been driving straight with off caster and zero toe for 9 years as far as I know. And I'm asking because I don't have the funds or time to go ahead and start replacing everything until it's fixed. Any rich monkey can do that like you can plug in all numbers from 0 until the answer to get the question right and that's not a right way to an answer.

Since I only need 1 more degree of caster, I just need to push the LBJ forward or UBJ backward by pi*distance/180. Assuming the distance between LBJ and UBJ is 45cm(18") I only need to push one of it by 0.8cm(10/32"). Sitting at work I was thinking maybe I can just push the UCA bushings offset by a few milimteres if that's all it takes but a whole 8mm doesn't feel comfortable even though the TL is only a daily driver now. I just did ballpark measurement to get an idea but I'll have to measure it better when doing an oil change soon.

I THINK I should try to find a shop/body shop that is willing to shift the cradle around even just a few mms which I believe will help bring left and right casters close. Anyone moved the front subframe around to correct camber and/or caster problems on 3G TL/7G Accord/1G TSX?

fullboost833

I brought up tires and road force balancing because that has a huge effect on how the car feels/ reacts to the road and since your original post didn't mention it I brought it up as a means to pick your brain to try to come up with what could be done or could be the issue. Just because tires look good doesnt always mean that they are good. Hopefully you get the issue resolved or someone else can chime in