little brad

I just got this 2005 TL 6MT with nav about a month ago to replace my identical 2004 that was totaled.

Everything has been good, but recently I noticed that sometimes the VSA and VSA-off lights will come on and stay on, usually when just driving down a regular dry road.

After a few seconds, my tachometer and speedometer will drop to zero. Sometimes my temp and fuel gauges will too. Also, the trip computer avg MPH and MPG flatline. The time and total mileage remain accurate.

After a few seconds of that, the gauges start working again. Sometimes they'll quit and come back, intermittently.

A few days later, my MIL came on so I went to AutoZone to get the codes read. I had something about the primary cat (bank1) and then another code that said something like 'lost connection to meter'. I'll get the exact code when I get home.

Has anyone else expierienced this? I'm wondering if I should start by trying to get to the gauge cluster connections or somewhere else. I don't want to take anything apart that I don't need to.

Thanks!

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Hope you get it solved!
sounds like electrical gremlins!

rossv1

Hopefully the issue isn't anything too serious.

little brad

It hasn't happened since the day I posted this. Temps have been a little warmer here the past few days, so I'm thinking there is probably just a loose connection somewhere.

I was hoping someone may have dealt with this before so I'd know where to start. I haven't seen the back of a Honda gauge cluster since my 96 Civic, so I'm not sure what all is going on back there these days, or how difficult it is to access.

Chessie724

Mine just did this today. Same car, '05 6MT. Had the brakes overhauled about a month ago, so maybe a wire harness came loose. Still no recurrence, OP?

little brad

It has been happening intermittently since I originally posted this thread. I found a thread from a few years ago that listed the exact same symptoms after he had an aftermarket audio system installed.

The OP never updated the thread to say if the issue got resolved or not, but there is evidence that my car once had an aftermarket system in it as well. My tweeters have been replaced, and I believe I came across some audio wiring in the trunk.

I started a new thread in the electronics subforum asking about grounding points, thinking that maybe a ground that serves the gauge cluster, the VSA system, air conditioning (sometimes when I get the VSA/VSA-off lights and flatlining gauges, my AC stops working too). I also noticed my engine respondes more sluggishly just before, and during the time the lights/gauges do their thing.

Here's the other thread, complete with a video of it happening. I have checked a few grounding points to no avail.

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-audio-bluetooth-electronics-navigation-94/common-grounding-points-888557/

Glad to see I'm not alone... I replaced my rear brakes recently, but long after the issue began for me. I can't seem to pinpoint anything that triggers it. It used to only happen while I was moving, but it has also happened while I'm sitting at a light. The lights will come on, gauges will drop, then come back... then tach only will drop, then speedo, then temp, then all 3 come back, and then all 3 go out at once, etc... so frustrating and makes my car feel like a POS.

Was there anything else that happened/you did to the car shortly before you started having the problem?

little brad

So, I did some digging around in the trunk and under the dash. Found a few things, but nothing that points to a bad/weird connection so far.

I pulled the lining away from the ceiling of the trunk, and noticed a curious wire grounded to the frame with 3 screws. o_O. It wasn't connected to anything. I took the screws and wire out.





I also had been planning to replace the trunk light bulb, as it's been burnt out ever since I got the car. I pulled the bulb out and noticed some more curious wires wrapped around the metal place where the bulb slides in. They were cut. Strange, but still doesn't explain my issue.



I pulled the lining away from both sides of the trunk and made sure those grounds were tight. They were, and I didn't notice any additional/non-OEM connections.

There is a main power wire connected to the battery with an in-line fuse (in tact). It's maybe 8AWG. It runs in through the firewall, down past the fusebox, and under the rear seat cushion into the trunk. I haven't traced it further than that, yet.

Also, it appears that a remote wire (for an amp) is tapped into a factory wire near the fuse box. The whole bunch of wires is wrapped in electrical tape and I needed an extra set of hands to help get it un-done. That's the first I've seen of any evidence of the factory wiring being tampered with. That wire runs along with the power wire into the trunk somewhere. I don't think there is an aftermarket amp installed anymore..

Finally, I tightened the ground under the driver seat. nothing looks amiss there. I understand there is another ground under the passenger seat, but there is a bunch more stuff on that side and I couldn't seem to reach it.

mzilvar

iTrader: (3)

Alright, so its not as simple as you might think.

The gauge cluster communicates across serial networks on the car between various ECUs. The car has a couple of them, the B-CAN & F-CAN are the major ones.

There's a block diagram.

Included are some of the tests that can be done on the gauge cluster to see if its your problem.

SM states to troubleshoot the B-CAN & F-CAN networks with a HDS, which most of us don't have.

Translates to taking it to a dealer.

There is a sort of, up, up down down, contra type code to get the gauge cluster to go into a 'test' mode. It involves turning your key, turning the headlights on and off at certain intervals and some other button presses.

Attached are some service manual scans, hope it helps out. Hopefully it's just a connector loose.

I know the scans are small, just save them or open it in a new tab. Not sure how to make them appear full-size in the post.


















Big problem with yours is its intermittent. Which means a test may or may not identify the problem depending on if it wants to act up during the test or not.

pohljm

I would make sure your sunroof drains are clear and the AC condensate line is clear. Check the ECU for signs of water infiltration.

Testsbyseth

Curious, does your cruise control work? If it does, then you've got issues within the cluster, ground is more then likely the culprit. But if you put on your cruise and it either won't engage or shuts off randomly, it may be your ECU.

little brad

Thank you SO much for your help! As I was going through the scans, I was thinking to myself... 'Do I have to run these tests after the symptoms occur?'

It seems to happen pretty often these days. Used to be I could go weeks without an issue, and now I'm lucky if I take a 20 min drive and it doesn't come on. I can probably get it to happen after just a little driving around my neighborhood.

Also, I assume you have access to the entire service manual since you provided those specific pages. Could you provide me with the entire manual by any chance?

Thanks again!

little brad

Yaknow, I've never used the cruise control in this car.

Should I try to use it after the symptoms occur? I assume so-- everything works fine before the VSA/VSA-off lights come on. After that it's a mess. Sometimes I can feel the engine feeling more sluggish a few mins before the lights come on, but that's it.

Because of the engine sluggishness thing, I'm starting to think I might have a F-CAN problem.

Pohljm- I have not checked thoroughly, but when I was digging around for the ground wires in my trunk, I visually inspected what I could see of the sunroof drains. Nothing looked amiss, but I also could only see very little of the lines. I'll see about checking into that further as well. Thanks!

little brad

I went into the diag menu bit pressing/holding map/guide/cancel buttons and brought up the 'navi system link' menu. It did its chime and these two lit up red. I'm not entirely sure what it means. It did it while I was moving, sitting still, and with the engine off and key on.

little brad

Update: My cruise control works, both when the symptoms are, and are not present.

I printed out the service manual scans, and plan to try some of the procedures this weekend.

little brad

Update: My cruise control works, both when the symptoms are, and are not present.

I printed out the service manual scans, and plan to try some of the procedures this weekend.

Fadi81

I know this thread is a bit old, but did you guys figure out the problem, I just had the same issue today on my 04 TL automatic, I'm planning to check it tomorrow, and any help would be appreciated

little brad

I replaced the battery and thought it was fixed, as the issue did not return for a few weeks... but then it did.

I sold the car about a month ago. Never did figure it out. I wish I could be of more help!

Good luck.

sdcii00

I also have been having the same problems with the VSA light and the speedometer, tachometer, engine temp gauges as well as defrost not working nor the AC whenever the VSA light comes on, which is intermittent as well. I may have this problem daily or can go days, weeks or even months without having an issue. Overall, I have been having this problem for probably close to 2 years. I have a 2004 Manual Transmission TL. Has anyone found a solution to this issue?

ahbennett

Same problem has been popping up over the past few weeks, if I find anything out I will post about it. Have you found anything conclusive?

WyeKnott

I am also having this issue and would appreciate any updates.

atm

Have a 2006 with the same issue but also have TPMS error in addition to the gauges dropping, trip computer resetting, and VSA issue. Hopefully I can get it sorted out.

thoiboi

Try replacing your car's battery.


low or dying batteries manifest themselves in odd electrical issues

atm

Battery and alternator are good.

Went to reset ABS and VSA using the manual procedure but the VSA wouldn't reset, goes to check TPMS message instead of blinking twice to indicate codes are cleared.

I've done a search on the site and Google for the location of the TPMS receiver, but didn't find much. Given that it's fairly cheap I'm inclined to change it out. Already replaced the sensors at Costco (they were original TRW) but that didn't solve the problem.

atm

I'm still troubleshooting this. Have a lot of B DTC codes that reoccur after resetting them (all of which relate to loss of communication on the network). The diagnostic Navi screen shows intermittent FI-ECI Meter in red. When that occurs the B-can diagnostic and F-can diagnostic screens are in red as well. On the F-can screen before they all go red, they begin to alternate red and green around the screen). I've unplugged the VSA unit but still get the error eventually. Also swapped the gauge cluster and that made no difference.

rwgrab

Will be interested to hear what you find out! I have an '05 with a 6MT that's showing the same symptoms. Basically a bunch of codes all over the place that don't seem to tell a decent story. My car is at the dealership now, and what they've done so far is: checked all the usual electrical suspects, replaced some wire between the gauge cluster and the VSA, tried a different gauge cluster (did this one myself), and now they are suggesting replacing the VSA module. I'm not convinced that's the issue, so I'm instead having them replace the PCM with a working used one. It seems to me like it has to be some sort of weird com failure since the fault codes don't relate at all (can't communicate with the mirrors, etc.). We'll see what comes of replacing the PCM. At least they're cheap and not too labor-intensive to swap out, but it sucks that the dealership has to do the programming.

Incidentally, my experience with this dealership has been terrible. They accidentally installed the PCM from a 5AT in my car and it took them a day to figure out why it wasn't programming! They claim the parts supplier sent the wrong part, but even if that were the case, the part numbers between the two are pretty different. The service manager assures me this hasn't done any lasting damage to the car, but I guess we'll see. The guy didn't even apologize for the error, but of course I'm still without my TL while they wait for yet another part to come in.

atm

Given your experience I'm now reluctant to take to the dealer to have them troubleshoot. How much have they billed so far?

I may swap the battery and alternator (although I doubt either is the problem at this point as the voltage appears correct in testing) and see if I can get a used ECM/PCM and someone with a tool and experience to reprogram it for a reasonable price. MICU (interior fuse box) replacement seems unlikely to fix and it is a pain to swap out with the back connectors.

I've fixed a couple items including the driver's side air mix motor that had a burned out circuit board. I installed a USA Spec BT45-HON3 and pulled the OEM Bluetooth module soon after getting the car this spring out as the previous owner said the Bluetooth OEM unit had failed and unplugged to stop a battery drain . I took it out of the loop to see if it could be that, but didn't make a difference. The car runs very well even when it starts throwing error codes other than the AC which may shut off until a restart.

Codes that are reoccurring after reset tend to be the following:
B1005
B1007
B1008
B1010
B1011
B1168
B1169
85-1 F-CAN failure on TPMS
86-1 F-CAN bus-off malfunction VSA

rwgrab

Yeah, so basically after about $700 in parts and labor and 3 weeks, the dealership tells me they can't fix the car. The PCM swap didn't make any difference, and the only other thing they can offer is to swap out the VSA module. But they can't guarantee that will fix the issue, so I'm hesitant to go that route since the part is a little more expensive.

I'm not sure what to try next. I may try another dealership in the area to see if they have any different ideas.

thoiboi

rwgrab

Thanks, I wish that's all it was, but the battery was replaced in January 2019.

atm

Thanks for the update. That's unfortunate to hear, I was thinking the ECM/PCM would be the next ECU I'd swap out but now may get a used VSA and try that first. I got a new code yesterday, U1022 F-CAN--Malfunction (VSA-ECM/PCM). I've had U1055 (F-CAN Malfunction-Gauge Control Module·(ECM/PCM) previously. With that the speedometer, tachometer, and fuel gauge drop to 0 temporarily and the MIL comes on but goes out as soon as they return to normal.

I continue to get: B1005, B1007, B1008, B1010, B1011 neCMarly every time as well. VSA is limited to 86-1 and TPMS is 85-1. I've never had any ABS codes or issues.

FYI, I swapped the battery yesterday, it isn't the issue.

atm

atm

Navigation diagnostics F-CAN starts off all green but eventually goes red as does B-CAN and the FI-ECU Meter on the other diagnostic screen. Before that happens the boxes pictured start to alternate red and green before going all red. It's after that that I begin to get the DTC codes

atm

Should be U-0122 and U-0155

atm

I still haven't gotten to the bottom of this. During the winter it didn't happen much at all my daughter said but it has reappeared recently. It goes away on startup and if I clear the F CAN and B CAN codes the Navi diagostics clear to green as well. I'll do more troubleshooting when I have time but it's more of a nuisance than anything. I wish I had a better answer to give.

El_Cheapo

Never let a shop guess and check fixes with your money. Just because it's the dealership does not mean they know what they're doing. You should have looked around for a good reputable indy shop to do the diagnostics. I guess it probably does not do you any good now.


You will need a scope to actually see what is happening on the F-CAN and B-CAN networks.

atm

I don't have a scope or break out box to look at the signal levels. I'm not inclined to put $ or too much time into this unless it becomes a more frequent issue. If I find an answer to my issue I'll post and will continue to follow this thread hoping someone else may in the meantime.

flopjoke

After a couple of months of having this exact issue, I've finally managed to solve it in my car! I had speedo replaced, alternator and battery checked, trans replaced and speed sensor checked, everything I can possibly think of, short of replacing the ECU itself. I was about to order an ECU and start soldering away, when I went back to this thread again. Someone above mentioned something about ground loops aftermarket parts and related electricalielectrical which got me thinking. I had recently installed a Navtool unit and was in the process of installing a backup camera but had to stop for other smaller fixes (oil change, brake pads, etc.) Turns out, the incomplete installation had left a ground wire disconnected, and that was tripping the guages, the AC, the VSA, the locks, and even occasionally, causing flickering intin OEM navigation unit. I unplugged the Navtool and the problem went away. Been driving for quite a while and haven't seen the issue ever again.

So I would recommend:

1. checking fuses first and then checking wires if you have aftermarket parts: camera, navigation system, audio system, speakers, lights, anything that involved adding wires to the car. Ground wiring is necessary and stray groundwground that don't connect to the car's ground will definitely trip the car's electric system.

2. After that, check other loose connections to the OEM parts (speedo, Navi, sensor, ECU wiring)

3. And finally, check the ECU for water damage or leakage due to the AC drain.
​​​​​
Rule e out certain parts:

flopjoke

How to rule out certain parts:

1. It's not the alternator unless the battery symbol shows up or you have alternator related issues.

2. The instrument guage cluster is only faulty if ALL guages stop working, or the lights are flickering, or more obvious: the ODO reading is blank (reading dashes). It's usually not the guage cluster

3. The speed sensor failing (located on the trans) is shown as only the speed + RPM dial failing. If others are failing, including the AC and VSA sensor, it's not related to the speed sensor

4. You can do a free battery and alternator test at AutoZone to check if those are actually failing or need replacement. Usually unrelated to this specific issue .

Important: DO NOT GO TO ANY DEALER OR WORKSHOP, THEY WILL ONLY TAKE A LOT OF YOUR MONEY AND SAY THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S WRONG. this issue is very specific to those cars that have some aftermarket parts improperly installed, and in some rare cases, the ECU failing. Removing the aftermarket parts or fixing the wiring should resolve this issue. At least, it did in my case.thr very few posts I've seen related to this on this forum and other places around usually mention some audio wiring or similar done by the previous or current owner which leads to this issue.

flopjoke

One more tip: reset ECU after fixing this issue (pressing gas pedal for 35 secs, disconnecting battery, etc.). It'll clear out all bad readings while the guages were tripping and restore factory settings, making the car shift and drive a lot better than before.

atm

Thanks for your update. The issue started with everything stock. I have followed a similar path, new speed sensor and gauge cluster but have yet to find the issue. I'll go back to chasing ground wires. I did rewire one of the wires for the back up lights as it had broken from open and closing the trunk over the years but haven't found anything else on the wire harness to indicate the issue.