klkitts

My '05 Manual Transmission TL has always had a slight "notch" in third gear. In other words, often when shifting into 3rd gear it does not quite go into gear. You have to push or take it out of gear and put it back in. I talked to the Acura dealer today - and he seemed to be very honest and forthright about the situation. He said that 7 other customers had also reported the problem to him - and that with all of them it was always 3rd gear. He also said that Acura had not published any official service bulletin on the matter. He said that for customers that reported the problem, at the current time, they are just replacing the transmission fluid and that seemed to fix the problem.

Has anyone else experienced this problem?

Thanks,

Kevin

willz822

Do a search....quite a few people have had the same issue and they all swapped out the MTF fluid with the GM Synchromesh fluid. They all swear by it so it might help your situation as well.

klkitts

I think that the dealer, in fact, did say that "syncromesh" was the transmission fluid he was going to use. I'm a little skeptical of a "fix in a bottle" - but since it is in getting an oil change today anyway I told them to go ahead and do it.

Kevin

Scribesoft

I had the exact same problem w/ 3rd gear. Count me in as one of the folks who changed my MTF to GMSFM and will swear by it. For the 3rd gear issue, it really was a "fix in a bottle" for me.

Here's a link with a picture of the stuff and the part number of you want to try it: GMSFM

ALSO - Do a search for "friction modified" on this site if you want to read about other TL driver experiences with this change in tranny fluid. Lots of good stuff!

willz822

They're probably going to use factory Honda MTF fluid, which would help a little but not as well as using the GM MTF fluid. You might want to switch it yourself or have a shop do it for you. Not too sure if the Acura dealer would swap the fluid to another that is not recommended by Honda.

DavidPax

I was just wondering, if I am not having any problems with my transmission shifting, should I change to it anyways? It seems like a lot of people have... just wondering? Any Opinions?

willz822

I changed my fluid even though I wasn't having any problems with shifting. It's more for peace of mind to get rid of all the metal that can accumulate since it is a brand new car.

klkitts

I just got back from the dealer - they replaced the transmission fluid with "BG Syncromesh" - anyone ever heard of that? I've only just drive a few miles back from the dealer but the problem seems completely gone - we'll see if it hold up over time.

Actually, I must say that I was very impressed with the honesty and forthrightness of the dealer. They said at least 7 other customers had reported the problem - all mentioning 3rd gear - they the dealer had reported the problem to Honda and that they were hoping for a more "permanent" fix. They honesly admitted that they did not know if the transmission fluid change would permanenty fix the problem - but that everyone else had reported positive results from the change.

klkitts

BTW, my '05 TL was purchased exactly 1 year ago - and has 9000 miles on it. It's had this problem from the beginning - but I forgot to mention it at my first oil change.

Kevin

willz822

Hope everything works out. I have 9000 miles as well and it's been buttery smooth so far.

Adobeman

Who is the dealer ?

Anyway I know that the Honda dealers near me all push BG products. I recently just changed replaced my 6MT's g-box with Honda MTF and my 3rd gear problem is gone too. (ref https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125346)

I don't doubt the benefits of the GM stuff. I just wanted to stay with the Honda stuff while in warrantee (I know, nervous Nelly). The fact is when I picked up the Honda MTF at a Honda dealer they mentioned the BG fluid also as something they used for their customers.

My guess is you will be "good to go" for quite a while.

clsdave

I had the third gear problem occasionally as others are stated here. So last weekend I changed my transmission oil at only 2000 miles. I used the GM Syncromesh Friction Modified transmission oil (# 12377916) and it now shifts perfectly all the time. The old oil had some metal flake in it that seems to be very common in the first drain. I'm very happy with the GMSM-FM so far.

klkitts

The dealer was Chevy Chase Acura in Bethesda, MD. I've been impressed with them so far.

Kevin

stevel

I developed this problem on my '05 after around 3K miles. my dealer reproduced the problem repeatedly I guess. they said they contacted Acura and were advised to replaced the gearset, synchronizer, and shift fork for third gear. they did that. then not more than 50 miles later it recurred again and has still been happening. I met personally with their zone rep and he said he contacted "product engineering" and they claimed they have never heard of this concern. now they currently have my car again and are keeping it until it is fixed now, or I will procede to get the car replaced if need be. They don't seem to mind leaving me in the loaner, an automatic transmission TSX.

dampfnudel

Hi stevel, welcome to the board.

mlpnya

I have the same third gear problem, 05 with 26k - its not getting better as dealer said, it is getter worse. I will take back in next year.

Of course they said they have never heard of the problem, but most of these cars are autos so its possible the problems are not seen too often.

i'll try to follow up here if i get any where with the dealer.

nate

trancemission

Hey Nate, I have the exact problem. My car only has 2.5K on it. I will be asking to get the syncromesh on my first service. Every so often it just pops out of gear, not just all of a sudden, its just when I first get it in there, I kept thinking its me.

johnny--2k

good info!!

mlpnya

Hey, just a comment regarding the use of different tranny oils to fix the 3rd gear issue

I am not sure if everybody's problem is the same, but mine is intermittent. now if it was a lubrication issue, would it not occur all of the time, or when it is hot? Also in other gears as well?

not sure of course but i think it is more of a mechanical issue, like the linkage or synchros - which is scarier....

any thoughts?

Mark - Detroit

With 2500 miles on an '05 I notice the same thing. In my opinion it is a synchro issue, it's affected by cold temps, & I believe could be improved or eliminated with the lube change. (I'll do that in the spring)
I've notice between 2nd and 3rd gear shift the engine rpm's don't drop very quickly. The emmision control system keeps it that way, especially in the cold. The notch seems to occur as the synchros try to work against the higher rpm.
I find, when it is cold, if I wait 1 second for the rpm's to start to fall then it is totally smooth like it should be (or like a double clutch). Just watch the tach & see if you think I am right.
I think the cold lube is just too slippery for the synchro rings to grab. The warmer oil works better.

Just my opinion. Any comments appreciated.

Temp is falling in Detroit,
Mark

vingengi

Mark - I totally agree. I have about 1,500 miles on my TL. When the car gets going and "warmed" up, the shifting from any gear is smooth. But it is on the first 5 to 10 minutes on a cold day that shifting sucks! I'm still contemplating whether to change the tranny fluid. What is holding me back is the fact that the car is still soooo new. I'm assuming when the warm weather rolls around that this will be a non issue -

However, on my first oil change, I might take the car to Chevy Chase Acura in Maryland where the creator of this thread took his. I will inquire about it. The dealership changed his car's fluid to the BG synchromesh stuff and he's been happy ever since.

trancemission

So I brought my car into my dealer on Wednesday morning. I sat with my service manager and their head technician. I sat at his computer and we all read this thread together. The head tech (who was a really cool guy to start with) and I talked in great detail about what I was feeling and what was happening. He started to explain that it has a double syncro and thats what I could be feeling when I shift into third. So we talked about it for a while and he said "let me go ahead and take out the factory fill, run it through a strainer and see what I can come up with. He told me that 95% of the TL's that he gets in are Autos so this is really the first hes heard of this, but since reading the thread he realizes that Im not making this up. So he strained the fluid and put the Honda MTF in. He informed me that the factory fill is a mobil synthetic and usually good for a number of miles. I forget how long he said. So anyway, he test drove the car and I had told him to really get on it, he came back and told me everything was a-okay. He was also a bit immpressed with the CAI. Anyway Ive been driving like normal and it has been like a whole new world to me, really. There was once when I felt just a slight notch going into third but I can tell you without a doubt just getting the factory fill out helped me. He said that if I ever have the issue to let him know. I have his email. Im telling you, this is why I love this dealer, every single time I go in there this is the treatment I get. Just top of line treatment each and every time. I am a mechanic myself and they know that so its obvious to me that they were being very sincere about my issue. I hope this helps you guys out...

Brettg

From the many threads in the past, I thought the factory fill was NOT synthetic, and NOT mobil 1, but honda dino oil based stuff with a honda part number.

The GMmtf-fm stuff has eliminated all my hard shifting problems for some time now...

Brett

trancemission

Im just telling you what I was told Brett.

Brettg

I think the manual trans fluid in the TL is the same stuff they use in the s2000 cars, same honda part number, and people have had the S2000 stuff analized, and its dino based.
The S2000 guys all swear by the GM stuff, as does everyone that tried it in their TL. It made a huge improvement in our car.

I would not beleive anything the dealers tell me without proof.

Brett

trancemission

and the proof would be that so far its shifting fine for me.

DMZ

https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...40&postcount=1

stewie20068

I had some tranny trouble out of my TSX 6MT 5000 miles ago. I would actually bounce off of 2nd gear if I was shifting at high rpms. The dealer switched me to a synthetic fluid called Redline. Shifting is definitly better, but still not like the day I took it off the lot. Do you guys think the GM fluid would work better than the Redline?

Freecell

Just a warning to those that change to a different brand trans fluid. The fluid Honda uses is spacifically designed for the trans if you add a different fluid you potentially could burn or damage the gears. At that point if your under Acura warranty they take a transmission fluid sample for contamination and if the discover that its not the correct fluid you could void your warranty

trancemission

^^^ I agree, I know that the GM syncomesh is fixing everybodies problem but I really think its covering it up more than fixing it...

Brettg

The GM stuff looks and smells just like the honda stuff, and is the same viscosity as far as one can tell, so how would acura know its not honda fluid?

Manual transmissions are not complex things, and all manual transmissions are very similar inside, big gears, syncros, shafts and bearings.
they do not have pumps, clutches, valve bodys, or hydrolics like auto boxes do, so the lube you put in is not critical.
Besides, many acura dealers put in other lubes when people complain, some have got BG stuff from the dealers.

I doubt the honda fluid is designed for the TL trans, its likely for ALL honda product transmissions.

Its designed to be cheap and fuel efficient (thin), and that does not mean there is nothing better you could use.

From your remarks about burning or damaging gears, it sounds like you have not had many transmissions apart and worked on them....

I would suspect the GM stuff if it was much different than the honda product, or after running it a while I found wear metal in it, but I found no big difference in it or any wear metal.
The additive package is slightly different, and its semi synthetic, and it allows the syncros to work a bit better than the honda stuff.

What you are saying is like saying you must use honda engine oil, and honda filters, and in both cases, there is much better out there for less money.

Brett

Adobeman

Brett,
I hear you man but I'm still holding out for some real analysis on the GM stuff. We traded posts in my thread about using the Honda MTF and you said you did intend to dump the GM and look at it but that you didn't plan on having it analyzed. So without such analysis, how can you be so sure nothing is happening ? Visual and or magnetic inspection may not prove anything if the wear is to non-ferrous components. Obviously "chunks" would be bad but I don't think anyone is suspecting the GM stuff will cause major damage but more something that can't be seen or sensed w/o some better form of detection than the eyeball and such.

I'm not a transmission expert and I do value your opinion so please let me know how you are so confident. Seriously.

I think Michael Wan had intended to analyze someones S2000 that was using the GM stuff. Not sure if he did or if it is applicable to the TLs.

Brettg

I ran the gm stuff for a few thousand miles, then dumped it and put new GM stuff in.
After about 4000 miles, the honda stuff looked dirty, break in wear metal, although no big chunks of flakes in the bottom of the drain pan.

After a few more thousand miles on the GM mtf, i dumped it and it basicly looked like new, with no metal chunks in it.
Its been in for about 4000 miles total now with good results.

If the transmission had a problem with the GM stuff, wear metal would show up in the lube, as brass/bronze powder, chunks, or steel powder, in a dark looking lube.

Then there is the other theory, that NOT using the GM stuff, and having trouble getting the transmission into (say 3rd) gear, you are causing damage and wear from trying to force it in gear, or missing shifts.

Manual transmissions are simple brute force sort of things, depending on the HP of the engine and vehicle weight, they are large sturdy gears, shifter forks moving the gears back and forth, bearings, syncros.
In the old days, they used gear lube in manual transmissions, but to improve shifting and reduce power loss through it, they are using what is basicly engine oil with some extreme pressure lubricants added.
Differentials have gone the same way, from 90w140 to stuff like 75w90, much thinner stuff to reduce power loss.

Now, automatic transmissions are a LOT different, the fluid is now critical, the friction properties, the viscosity, are very important in how the clutches work, how the hydrolic valves work, etc.

The ZF tip transmission in my Passat used a special esso atf, and only potensin made a substitute that was approved.
Some tried one of the redline atf fluids and had mixed results with shift quality.

Brett

Adobeman

Ouch ! That's just the painful theory I have been contemplating lately. Does every "forced" shift eat up a bit of life. Shifting is much better but still fights occasionally.


Seriously, thanks for your explanation. Your logic seems to be well thought out and has excellent points. The garage is pretty miserable with sand, water, salt and cold cement this time of year so I probably will hesitate until warmer temperatures to make the switch. the switch to GMSF FM seems inevitable.

Brettg

Only if you really try to force it in gear might there be a problem, not with the gears, but with the parts that move the gears around.

Its supposed to get quite warm around here next week, 50F!
I dont plan on doing any car work though, except maybe a wash...

Brett

Enjoy6MT

6MT team:
I have an '05 TL-6MT with 8500 miles. I have experienced the 3rd gear "notchy" shifting issue from day 1. It seems to have become worse over the last 8500 miles. I saw several posts in this forum and the GM fluid that seems to resolve the issue for some and the Honda fluid helping others as well. I have not tried either one yet and am planning to do it next week.

However, just like everyone else, it concerns me a lot that a car that costs 31K+ should not have such issues under 10K miles. All of us in the 6MT camp bought the car because we love stick shifts and this seems unacceptable to me. I am planning to print this whole series of posts and write a formal complaint to the Customer Service department of Acura. I doubt whether I will hear anything else other than "Contact your dealer" but I wish to officially notify them.

I could not ignore the fact that several of us who have faced this problem & written messages in this forum seem to be in the MD, PA, VA area. I cannot get an exact count but that is a rather alarming coincidence that all of us from these states have reported this issue. It could be a batch of transmissions that have this issue.

Can anyone from other states let us know if you have faced this as well? And what your dealers said in response to your complaint?

Thanks!
TL-6MT from Maryland

bklynpanman

I've always had that problem.. I have teh GM fluid in there now. feels like sometimes it grinds when it goes in..

DMZ

So what are you waiting for?????

I wasn't too crazy about the shiftability either, but you must realize that at 8500 miles you have powder like metal shavings in there gumming up the works. Just put the GM Synchro Friction Modified in and say "Good Night Gracie".

mlpnya

I picked my car up in Jacksonville Florida, June of '05. I have had the problem since about 7500 miles. The dealer told me he had never seen this before - but most cars down here in retirement land are autos!!

good luck,
nate

trancemission

the dealer changed mine and put in Honda MTF, so far its been shifting a whole lot better...