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The thing is that why are 5 of the 6 ports completely covered in soot and then 1 of them is COMPLETELY clean like it just got made at the factory. This threw up a red flag to me ...1/6 of the cylinders isnt doing what its supposed to is what i'm thinking. My TB works fine. I have cleaned it and it doesnt stick or anything. It actually looks really good.
The thing is that why are 5 of the 6 ports completely covered in soot and then 1 of them is COMPLETELY clean like it just got made at the factory. This threw up a red flag to me ...1/6 of the cylinders isnt doing what its supposed to is what i'm thinking. My TB works fine. I have cleaned it and it doesnt stick or anything. It actually looks really good.
I could never tell that mine didnt work but it actually never did properly. For that same reason I never suspected it.
If you have a hard time maintaining speed on the highway and the car feels like its braking on its own and feels somewhat heavy, sluggish... its either the app sensor or the Throttle body. In your case its the TB. Ive rad it on the TSX forum where a guy fixed his also. I totally gave up on mine until you started posting and I started reading and looking for threads and it just pointed me in the right direction and its fixed. Im not talking about small changes like i usually think at first and what not but this now is a different car completely. My wife noticed the big difference , my father also and they all thought before that it was just in my head... If it was the injector or the coil and such you would feel the difference and it would throw codes for sure... My car now idles perfectly, there are no dips in idle when the AC cycles and even the exhaust is so much quieter at idle.
As far as the manifold, well you just have air rushing trough there really. The way it looks its absolutely normal, is it funny, yes but Ive seen it around here exactly like you describe it many times.
The car doesnt have any problems if im at highway speed. It seems to go away. Only when im starting to hit stop and go, or around town driving.
I am taking it back to Acura on Wednesday. The lead tech there said he wants to feel how the car is acting so I am going to take him on a test-drive. He mentioned hes worked there longer then anyone he knows and not alot gets by him as to problems. Hopefully they can help me out.
my manifold is not as dirty in general, its an 05 but it only has around 59 000 on it though... but there is one cylinder port that looks new in comparison to the others
as i said it seems to be normal from what ive seen sofar
Well I ended up cleaning the runners and intake manifold with a parts washer so it all looks brand new now. Car is on its way back to the stealership Wednesday. I can't deal with the loss of power anymore. It has gotten way to bad.
Update: I seem to notice the sound of Air rushing in or rushing out when the problem starts to happen. Almost like the car gets to a certain temp and starts to leak air somewhere. The only problem with this theory is that my idle is still fine and still starts fine. Car backfires alot either from being lean or rich. Any ideas guys?
Might just be me.. but like mentioned before, when problem starts, my check gas cap light comes on shortly after. The problem hasnt been there in 4 days, with no cap light. The instant my car starts to bog down, my check gas cap light came on. Hmm....
if your caliper bolt has seized you can still remove the caliper
1. loosen lugs
2. jack car up
3. remove wheel
4. remove bolts that hold caliper onto caliper pin (#13) (#11 and #17 will remain on bracket)
5. remove caliper from bracket and hang on your spring
6. remove 2 bolts that hold caliper bracket to hub (#18)
7. Since Acura/Honda does not sell the caliper bracket separate from the caliper and they do not recommend reusing a bracket where a pin has seized, you will have to replace the caliper assembly (#7,8)
question: What about if you drive it in tiptronic mode? in gear one, does it still lag when driving in this fashion?
also with the timing belt change just curious how many miles on your car? did they also (please say yes) change the water pump, tb tensioner, idler pulley, tb pulley, etc?
Gas cap light doesn't have really anything to do with the PCV. Gas cap warning lights typically would mean your EVAP canister purge valve is bad. Don't know if that would cause the loss of power you're experiencing, though.
I want to get it on a dyno and take a look at fuel pressure under throttle. I threw P0171 and P0174 today at the same time. Erased them and they came back on within 2 minutes. Maybe a fuel pump going out...
I know its not a leak because I just replaced the intake manifold gasket, and idle is completely fine. I will most likely be ordering a new pump here shortly. Hopefully it will yield results. I appreciate all the input!
Just have to figure out if I can use an aftermarket one due to costs... 280$ for a OEM replacement seems a bit excessive.
Holy cow. I hate to see people getting taken at the dealership. If anyone is near west central ohio, I can do those timing belts all day long for $500, and that's including parts AND labor. Ive done ALOT of these. I do alot for coworkers, too (I work at Honda R&D)
Was at the dealership yesterday and most of this morning again. Got a call saying my "aftermarket exhaust'' is "most likely'' causing it. I got quite a kick out of that. He tried to explain to me that the car isn't designed for aftermarket applications.
Bringing it in tomorrow morning free of charge to pull the fuel pump and filter to see whats going on in there..
My suspicion on your intake manifold port being so clean is fuel IS getting into that area, where it is not on the other 6. The pic is of the lower intake runner, correct? If so, I'd expect the carbon buildup until it gets to the cylinder head where fuel is injected. Every one of mine looked like this:
If you shine a flashlight down the runner though, it gets clean after the injector going into the intake port. Since one of yours is clean all the way up, I'd suspect fuel is getting into runner somehow, but if it were an injector issue, I'd also expect a code of some sort.
Was the aftermarket exhaust diagnosis from the Acura tech that you said can diagnose any problem? I'd question his driveability diagnosis skills if so, as that is the most absurd thing I've ever heard.
It's hard from text to discern exactly what you are experiencing. I think I saw you posted a video earlier in the thread. I'll check it out to see what it looks like. My thought is that the techs that have been diagnosing it are not true driveability techs, but just parts swappers waiting for the computer to tell them what the problem is.
I could astound you with the number and type of issues that can cause driveability problems with no codes though. I recall you replaced the battery and the issue resolved if only temporarily. I was going to suggest checking all of your grounds. You may even want to add a ground wire, it's cheap insurance against electrical 'ghosts'.
It's sooo hard to quantify what is happening from the video, but I'd almost think it is running excessively rich, and bogging down. Did you ever get an OBD2 data logger? Being able to log what the engine is seeing and doing while it is happening is the ONLY way you will be able to figure it out, unless you just get lucky.
I have to the conclusion that if the "technicians" at Acura can't figure it out within the first 15 minutes, they automatically tell me its the aftermarket applications. They even noted in the paperwork "Advise the customer to return car back to factory original condition and continue troubleshooting efforts from that point".
I did find it odd that one of my intake ports was completely clean... I replaced the injector in that port and it did nothing. Only other thing is maybe a COP going bad, but I am certain I would throw a code.
When the problem starts to happen, the entire sound of the engine and exhaust completely changes to an extremely deep sound, and the exhaust pops. I cant exactly seem to figure out if its lean pop or backfiring from running too rich. My concern is continually growing because at some point I am going to destroy my motor. I got into it with the dealership this morning because they want to keep turning me down or telling me they cant feel it. I had my fiance drive the car and mind you shes the one who would drive all the way home with a flat and not even notice. She even said to me "What is wrong with it, it wont go anywhere when I press the gas". So to tell me they cant feel it is completely bullsh*t. They have datalogged it for over 50 miles now and say their computers don't show anything out of normal.
I do not even know where to go from here. If it was a clogged fuel filter I would be receiving miss-fire codes or have trouble starting of some sort I suppose. I have replaced countless parts.. so I only have so many more to replace.
I really appreciate the help though... I am going back tomorrow to the dealership and I am not leaving until one of them is on a test-drive with me and notices the problem.
Is the car under warranty? I'd think it has to be with their reluctance to do any sort of troubleshooting. Driveability is a high paying diag, since it is straight time - if it takes them 6 hours to figure out, you pay for 6 hours.
It doesn't show a clean plug, but a spark plug that has been in for a long time and looks clean is an indication of coolant entering the combustion chamber and steam cleaning the electrode during the combustion process.
I had a truck once that was making a popping noise, it never backfired on me but I could hear one of the cylinders pop every time it fired and it was actually water getting into the chamber through a cylinder head bolt that I noticed when I pulled the valve covers one time and saw some emulsified oil in there in just one spot by a few rockers right on one of my cylinder head bolts. My oil still looked perfectly fine whenever I changed it in that truck though and I would've never noticed if I hadn't pulled that valve cover.
Are you loosing coolant at all?
Does it smoke under load? White or light blue?
I also remember you had an electrical problem before, have you checked the battery negative to chassis connection? That's the main ground for the electrical system, the terminal at the battery should be clean and the end bolted to the inside of the fender should also be clean.
How did they check out when they were tested?
It might be worth a shot to clean up that ground connection, both where it connects to the battery and to the fender. Whatever you do don't use vaseline or some type of petroleum jelly on those connections, that stuff is an insulator and will actually inhibit the battery connection. If something is used to prevent corrosion it should be something more like NO-OX-ID which is a conductive grease that prevents corrosion.
Also have you taken a look at the timing marks to see if they're all lined up on TDC?
Would have to remove the crank pulley and lower TB cover to check the crank TDC mark, but it is pretty easy to check the front and rear cam marks, set the front one to TDC on cylinder #1 and the rear one should be lined up to TDC as well.
The rear tends to be off a slight bit reading it off the cover, so I usually remove the top timing belt cover to check the marks off the marks on the block and top of the cam gear vice on the timing belt covers.
But the covers should at least be pretty close, if not dead on, and they have a little rubber inspection hole that can just be popped out real quick.
That ones kind of easter egging, but it's an easy check.
Since it appears that you can reproduce it, or it happens with enough frequency that you can video it, can you go to an area where you an do a test? Or you may already have. When you go to take off and it bogs like that, if you put it in neutral, will it rev free, or does it continue to have that 'bogged' feeling? Just curious if it is only happening under a load or not.
Thanks everyone for their input. I would check TDC but timing belt and all that was done recently, and the problem accuring before and after that change.
Acura told me they can't measure fuel pressure or test the fuel pump. THey said if it was a pressure issue or a bad fuel pump I would ahve an engine light for it. Kind of confused me... I threw P0171 and P0174 last week at the same time. I cleared them a few times and they havnt came back.
Car doesnt smoke, smell funny or anything. Temps stay exactly at the same spot. Oil was changed 2 days ago and looked completely fine.
When it is bogging down, if I put it into neutral it will rev freely. It is only happening upon giving the car load.. but like I have mentioned, sometimes the car will do this for 30 minutes then out of no where completely stop in the middle of the trip and run like its brand new.
I am still lost... I thought maybe its a COP dying.. but I think I would of thrown a code for that? I posted a pic of one of my intake ports being completely clean and people were saying that normal? That looks to me like eitehr fuel isnt getting there, or too much fuel and no spark. I don't think one of the 6 ports should be completely clean when the other 5 have carbon buildup.
As I said I also have that one port that is a lot cleaner in comparison.... bothered me always but like you I have received answers where people told me that it is actually normal.
Ever since the Throttle body change my car runs better then ever. Well it doesn't hesitate like before. The only thing really is that i always think that the low-end could be better but then again its a honda so maybe I am expecting to much.
Today I tested the fuel pressure, wasn't fun as i couldn't find the proper connection, the Tl doesn't have a port to attach the fuel pressure gauge but instead you have to disconnect the quick connect on the fuel line right underneath the throttle body and T-tap. I made it to work and measured 58 psi while the engine was running and 54psi with the pump primed and key left in second position. After three minutes it dropped to 50psi, 5min it was at 48 and after 30min it was at 30psi.
Is it normal... not sure but then again the gauge could be losing pressure or maybe some place else, although while engine running and checking for pressure it never dropped at all.
Mind taking pictures of your setup? I am going to use a little bit longer hose and prop it up outside of my hood when its closed so I can test pressure under throttle and load. It is going back to the dealership tomorrow for another round of Diagnostic time. Free of charge this time..
I rented it but pretty much i had to use a T-connection, one hose with clamps to connect onto the metal tubing that runs towards the fuel rail and a smaller hose to push inside that quick connect without using any clamps as its not possible. I just taped around a little bit to prevent it from backing out. I had one that fit perfectly inside and it didn't leak whatsoever.
As of right now the only thing that i suspect barely if at all, it would be the pressure regulator.
I just verified today that if I put the car in neutral, the car will rev freely. Seems to be happening under load, gets bad when I am on a incline. Problem randomly goes away for short periods of time too. LIke today it was doing it horrible and I pulled in to get gas, pumped, and left and when I pulled out it was like new. I stopped at a red light and after taking off from the light it came back. Gas mileage seems to be average. I havnt noticed a hit on it at all. Oil was clean when it was changed a few days ago. Coolant levels are fine and new. Doesnt smoke, has no problems on startup or idle.
Ok here is one more thing and I always keep going back to this as well. I had a 83-01 code for a long time now, its not a check engine code but when you connect a scanner and run it, it will always pull this code under the abs group.
Im visiting my in-laws for the past week and my brother in law is a mechanic so he has a scanner which i borrowed and I pulled that code again. This time i actually erased it and shortly after I received another two codes that actually wont go away anymore.
84-01 - Sensor logic failure
86-01 - Can relation failure
Now I have the VSA exclamation mark on all the time and as soon as i start driving for a little bit the VSA light shows up but goes off when restarting the engine.
Its all related to the VSA modulator i think which I mentioned has the ability to cut power when it feels too.
today i was around driving and while the car felt very responsive at first, after it warmed up it just felt like that initial low end just disappeared , i get it the car warms up and can never be like it is when its cold but it really loses a lot of torque where it kinda doesn't feel normal...
Because i always suspect something with the VSA i pull into the parking lot and take out both VSA fuses. Start the car and start driving and like night and day in terms of low end torque.
that VSA modulator has to do something with it.
Low end as it should be. the brakes seem to take less effort as well and steering feels lighter.
So today, I called my father and discussed the problems with the car. I mentioned to him a week or so ago I threw P0171 and P0174 which were both banks lean. The code has since gone away.
He asked me if the car will rev freely in neutral when the problem is happening and I told him yes, that it is only under load.
He immediately told me its a vacuum leak. No hesitation....
Now I have a few questions with this theory..
1. Wouldnt a vacuum have a rough idle?
2. Wouldnt the problem be there 100% of the time? (It isnt there 100% of the time)
3. Why doesnt it do it when I first start the car after sitting for a while.. only happens once car is warmed up.
Can anyone else chime in here? Problem just is getting horrible now. Won't happen unless I'm doing stop and go at lower speeds. If I drive all interstate home without traffic it won't do it.
The only things I can think of are maybe the transmission is heating up and malfunctioning but it will completely go away sometimes.
The entire sound of the exhaust changes when it starts.. Kind of like fuel trims are off but why wouldn't I be throwing codes for the trims being off if they were? The car bogs for a split second upon giving it a decent amount of gas kind of like its flooded the cylinder then burns it up and starts to go.. Could it be a coil going out that just isn't throwing a code? I've always had coils throw codes immediately if they are acting up.
If it was a clogged fuel
Filter I don't think I would be getting the problem only in stop and go kind of driving, just doesn't make and logical sense to me.
I checked extensively for vacuum leaks, and couldn't find anything.
Throttle body is brand new looking and appears to be in great condition.
Only thing that I've noticed is that one intake port being completely clean unlike the other 5.. This is the only area of concern for me at this time. So with that being clean, could this lead back to my coil
Theory? It's just getting a shit ton of fuel and not burning it? I have no idea but in my eyes, I believe all of the cylinder ports should look similar as in how much carbon buildup there is.
So there are two constants... Will not happen when the car is first started after sitting/ will only start happening in lower speed, city driving.
One more thing, I hear ALOT of air through my CAI when it is happening.. Normally the intake air noise goes away with a decent amount of throttle..but who knows. Input is greatly appreciate guys/gals!
09-28-2014, 08:19 PM
