Someone with a '07 or '08 6mt Type S. Need you to test something for me.
05-13-2011, 01:48 PM
#81
Safety Car
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
JTS - i would still try to rule out the gas component that IHC initially raised... if you can't find high octane gas, I would recommend posting a thread in the region specific forums... perhaps a few of your locals will know... good luck and keep us posted... i could def see how this would become annoying...
I live close to Chicagoland speedway in Joliet, IL I get they got it there. Just though of that :-)
James
Last edited by JTS97Z28; 05-13-2011 at 01:50 PM.
05-17-2011, 10:16 PM
#82
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Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
Made a post on the corvette forums about local gas stations with race fuel. Turns out Gas City has a lot of stations with race fuel in my area. Within the next few days I will put in a few gallons of 100. I will report back with results. Stay tunes.
James
James
05-19-2011, 12:44 AM
#84
Cruisin'
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im extreamly curious to see what you can come up with i am experiencing the exact same thing,, except i started to throw cel's wich read multiple randome misfire,, and misfire on cylinder bank 1-6 but most common was cylinder bank 4 so i decided it must be an ignition problem so i changed all plugs and ran great for about 20 min and was back same hesitating throttle ,, im not sure im thinking possible coil pack going bad,,,, not sure how the car would run if i jumped timing 1 deg ,, i would think it would run much worse than a little hesitation. i also notice a slightly rough idle at times almost like the car is starving for fuel, im thinking of changing the fuel filter, but im stumped , i have an 05 base 6mt with 92k some im doing timing belt water pump and accesorie belt, so i figured i should do the plugs any way and fuel filter wouldnt hurt, im going to try to do all that this weekend so if anything fixes it i will be sure to let you know
05-19-2011, 11:52 AM
#86
Safety Car
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
im extreamly curious to see what you can come up with i am experiencing the exact same thing,, except i started to throw cel's wich read multiple randome misfire,, and misfire on cylinder bank 1-6 but most common was cylinder bank 4 so i decided it must be an ignition problem so i changed all plugs and ran great for about 20 min and was back same hesitating throttle ,, im not sure im thinking possible coil pack going bad,,,, not sure how the car would run if i jumped timing 1 deg ,, i would think it would run much worse than a little hesitation. i also notice a slightly rough idle at times almost like the car is starving for fuel, im thinking of changing the fuel filter, but im stumped , i have an 05 base 6mt with 92k some im doing timing belt water pump and accesorie belt, so i figured i should do the plugs any way and fuel filter wouldnt hurt, im going to try to do all that this weekend so if anything fixes it i will be sure to let you know
Not sure how far into my thread you read but I did try new plugs and swapped the coils with my wifes accord V6 which were identical parts to my 08 Type S. No change whatsoever so it was not plugs or coils. Also, im not so sure our issues are similar as even though I might make it sound like my car has a serious issue, it really is very minor infact if I were to give you a ride you probably wouldnt even notice it unless I specifically point it out to you. Either way though its something that annoys me and I have never experienced this surging with any car I have owned...and I have had a lot of cars.
Im still going to do the 100 octane race fuel but its going to be a day or two until I run my current tank low enough so that I can run the 100 without diluting it too much. I will report back then.
James
05-21-2011, 07:46 PM
#87
Safety Car
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
On my way to work today I put in 40 bucks worth of 100 octane race fuel which came out to about 6.8 gallons. The tank was at 1 mile to empty so however much gas that means was left is what I mixed almost 7 gallons of 100 with.
My drive from the gas station to work was only 5 miles so I haven't driven much yet. So far unless something changes after more miles of running the race gas it does not seem the surging is going away. I will say the car feels VERY strong and responsive though. I didn't even have a lack of power issue to begin with and I can still feel a difference. As weird as this may sound I swear the car even sounds different when it gets into vtec. Would be great if I can run race gas all the time with that ethanol crap in it. Anyway though, so far the surging is still there after 5 miles driving with the race gas. On my 20 mile drive home tonight I will play around with it more and see what happens.
James
My drive from the gas station to work was only 5 miles so I haven't driven much yet. So far unless something changes after more miles of running the race gas it does not seem the surging is going away. I will say the car feels VERY strong and responsive though. I didn't even have a lack of power issue to begin with and I can still feel a difference. As weird as this may sound I swear the car even sounds different when it gets into vtec. Would be great if I can run race gas all the time with that ethanol crap in it. Anyway though, so far the surging is still there after 5 miles driving with the race gas. On my 20 mile drive home tonight I will play around with it more and see what happens.
James
Last edited by JTS97Z28; 05-21-2011 at 07:49 PM.
05-22-2011, 02:55 AM
#88
Team Owner
I wasn't going to suggest this but since everything else has failed and the dealer can't help, I would pursue the lean condition.
On most cars and I'm pretty sure Hondas included, they will go rich if the 02 sensor is unplugged. I still think you have a lean condition. You can try unplugging the two primary 02 sensors and drive it under the conditions you experience the problem. If this fixes the problem, plug one bank back in and see if the problem comes back.
Don't run any tests any longer than necessary and make sure you have a way to clear the inevitable codes it's going to set.
The dealer should have been able to see if it was running lean by the live data and even better, they should have watched the sensors for at least 5 cross counts per second during light throttle to see if one is getting lazy. Unfortunately they didn't do it or didn't know how so you have to blindly try stuff now.
You can always try running it hard for a few minutes, go through the first 3-4 gears at full throttle a few times then drive normally and see if it still surges. If the sensors are just a little lazy, the heat can wake them up for a very short time. 02s and exhaust in general can cool quickly so it's best to do your last run at heavy throttle from first to third and then back off in third at your normal low rpm, light throttle and see how it does. This could be something as simple as an 02 heater problem that shows itself when EGTs are too low to keep the sensor fully functional without the assistance of the heater.
On most cars and I'm pretty sure Hondas included, they will go rich if the 02 sensor is unplugged. I still think you have a lean condition. You can try unplugging the two primary 02 sensors and drive it under the conditions you experience the problem. If this fixes the problem, plug one bank back in and see if the problem comes back.
Don't run any tests any longer than necessary and make sure you have a way to clear the inevitable codes it's going to set.
The dealer should have been able to see if it was running lean by the live data and even better, they should have watched the sensors for at least 5 cross counts per second during light throttle to see if one is getting lazy. Unfortunately they didn't do it or didn't know how so you have to blindly try stuff now.
You can always try running it hard for a few minutes, go through the first 3-4 gears at full throttle a few times then drive normally and see if it still surges. If the sensors are just a little lazy, the heat can wake them up for a very short time. 02s and exhaust in general can cool quickly so it's best to do your last run at heavy throttle from first to third and then back off in third at your normal low rpm, light throttle and see how it does. This could be something as simple as an 02 heater problem that shows itself when EGTs are too low to keep the sensor fully functional without the assistance of the heater.
05-22-2011, 07:59 AM
#89
Safety Car
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
Ok so 40 more miles on the race gas no changes.
I Hate Cars,
Good suggestions thanks. I did try driving one time with the front main 02 sensor unplugged but it didn't change anything. I only did one drive like that though and the car still surged. Not sure if I need to drive several sessions or if it's something that should happen right away. I did not disconnect the main bank sensor on the other side since I couldn't reach it. I will try again and drive the car with both main 02 sensors unplugged. Unfortunately I got rid of the diagnostic software I had so I no longer have a tool to turn the CEL off. I guess that's ok since I can disconnect the battery if need be or let it go off on it's own. Or buy a cheap scan tool I guess.
Can the rear 02 sensors have any effect whatsoever on drivability or no?
On my corvette forums one guy said they had a BMW that did some weird stuff and turned out to be due to a bad catalytic converter? I do on occasion get the egg smell after WOT, but I figure most Hondas do that. Atleast every one I have been in does. I also would have no clue how to checkfor this either without a lot of work, plus if that was it I probably would have gotten a CEL.
Last but not least, do you think there is anything with the clutch assembly that could be causing this? Reason I ask is another way to describe this surging is almost exactly like the feeling if for example you let off the clutch too quickly and the car kind of shakes for a second... Feels sorta like that but while in gear during normal acceleration only. I have noticed no clutch slipping issues and the clutch seems engage just fine and overall feels perfect. I don't know if this could be it I'm just trying to think of all possibilities. Otter things to think of such as fuel injectors or fuel pump. Who knows.
Thanks again and I will report back after driving with both pre-cat 02 sensors unplugged.
James
I Hate Cars,
Good suggestions thanks. I did try driving one time with the front main 02 sensor unplugged but it didn't change anything. I only did one drive like that though and the car still surged. Not sure if I need to drive several sessions or if it's something that should happen right away. I did not disconnect the main bank sensor on the other side since I couldn't reach it. I will try again and drive the car with both main 02 sensors unplugged. Unfortunately I got rid of the diagnostic software I had so I no longer have a tool to turn the CEL off. I guess that's ok since I can disconnect the battery if need be or let it go off on it's own. Or buy a cheap scan tool I guess.
Can the rear 02 sensors have any effect whatsoever on drivability or no?
On my corvette forums one guy said they had a BMW that did some weird stuff and turned out to be due to a bad catalytic converter? I do on occasion get the egg smell after WOT, but I figure most Hondas do that. Atleast every one I have been in does. I also would have no clue how to checkfor this either without a lot of work, plus if that was it I probably would have gotten a CEL.
Last but not least, do you think there is anything with the clutch assembly that could be causing this? Reason I ask is another way to describe this surging is almost exactly like the feeling if for example you let off the clutch too quickly and the car kind of shakes for a second... Feels sorta like that but while in gear during normal acceleration only. I have noticed no clutch slipping issues and the clutch seems engage just fine and overall feels perfect. I don't know if this could be it I'm just trying to think of all possibilities. Otter things to think of such as fuel injectors or fuel pump. Who knows.
Thanks again and I will report back after driving with both pre-cat 02 sensors unplugged.
James
05-22-2011, 01:49 PM
#90
Race Director
I'm still not convinced you have a lean condition, but without knowing what the dealer did to detect the so called "lean condition", it's hard to know for sure. And exactly where did they discover this so called "lean condition". Was it on the front bank (4,5,6), the rear bank (1,2,3), a single cylinder, multiple cylinders....??
Also, it still would be helpful to know if they actually measured fuel pressure.
As far as A/F sensors, the front sensor sends feedback to the ECM for cylinders 4,5,6. The rear sensor does the same for cylinders 1,2,3. I'd really think you'd get a MIL if one of the sensors was at fault (i.e. the A/F sensor is sending a false "rich" signal to the ECM causing the ECM to drive the injectors to lean), but you could try unplugging the other A/F sensor and see if that makes a difference. (I don't know what value the ECM defaults to when not receiving any A/F sensor inputs from a particular bank, so I'm not sure that's a good test.)
Bottom line, IF you REALLY have a lean condition, here are the possible causes:
1. Low fuel pressure (so far we don't know if this was actually measured)
2. Bad/fouled injector/s
3. Faulty A/F sensor/s sending a false "rich" signal to the ECM (try unplugging the other A/F sensor). Your autotap software showed both sensors indicating the same, so I kind of doubt it's an A/F sensor (or both of them are bad).
4. Faulty ECM programming (ECM supposedly has been reflashed with latest firmware).
5. Faulty ECM
So if you really have a lean condition AND IF the fuel pressure is good, there's really nothing left but the A/F sensor/s, the injector/s and the ECM. (Technically, valve clearance could also be a cause of a lean or rich condition).
Also, it still would be helpful to know if they actually measured fuel pressure.
As far as A/F sensors, the front sensor sends feedback to the ECM for cylinders 4,5,6. The rear sensor does the same for cylinders 1,2,3. I'd really think you'd get a MIL if one of the sensors was at fault (i.e. the A/F sensor is sending a false "rich" signal to the ECM causing the ECM to drive the injectors to lean), but you could try unplugging the other A/F sensor and see if that makes a difference. (I don't know what value the ECM defaults to when not receiving any A/F sensor inputs from a particular bank, so I'm not sure that's a good test.)
Bottom line, IF you REALLY have a lean condition, here are the possible causes:
1. Low fuel pressure (so far we don't know if this was actually measured)
2. Bad/fouled injector/s
3. Faulty A/F sensor/s sending a false "rich" signal to the ECM (try unplugging the other A/F sensor). Your autotap software showed both sensors indicating the same, so I kind of doubt it's an A/F sensor (or both of them are bad).
4. Faulty ECM programming (ECM supposedly has been reflashed with latest firmware).
5. Faulty ECM
So if you really have a lean condition AND IF the fuel pressure is good, there's really nothing left but the A/F sensor/s, the injector/s and the ECM. (Technically, valve clearance could also be a cause of a lean or rich condition).
Last edited by nfnsquared; 05-22-2011 at 02:01 PM.
05-22-2011, 04:51 PM
#91
Safety Car
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
Man I am really thinking about printing up all the excellent information you two have given me (nfnsquared and I Hate Cars) and bring that info to the dealership. I know for a fact they didnt go into as much detail and indepth as you guys are explaining.
After I got home from work today I disconnected both primary 02 sensors as I removed the strut bar for easier access to the rear one. I did a trial run and surprisingly the car seemed very smooth and I started to get VERY excited. After some more driving though it seemed that some slight lurchiness came back during normal acceleration. So as of now I dont want to jump the gun and say the car drives smooth because I think its still there. Im going to keep them disconnected for a few more drives and see what happens. The other thing the car does is if you push the pedal down rapidly the car will give you a brief jolt. I am not referring to any drivetrain slack either this is after that occurs it will jolt then continue to accelerate sometimes normally and sometimes lurchy. I wish one of you guys were local to give you a ride so you know exactly what im talking about. Wanna take a day trip to Chicago? :-)
If the surging is still present after driving with the 02's disconnected which I think it will be I might do one last trip to the dealer insisting the car is fixed or I will not take it back. I will bring with me all the info in this thread from you guys and even get someone high up from Acura involved as well if need be. I do not want to think about selling this car because it really is nice and I love it, but I dont think I can keep this thing with this surging on my mind ALL the time.
Thanks,
James
After I got home from work today I disconnected both primary 02 sensors as I removed the strut bar for easier access to the rear one. I did a trial run and surprisingly the car seemed very smooth and I started to get VERY excited. After some more driving though it seemed that some slight lurchiness came back during normal acceleration. So as of now I dont want to jump the gun and say the car drives smooth because I think its still there. Im going to keep them disconnected for a few more drives and see what happens. The other thing the car does is if you push the pedal down rapidly the car will give you a brief jolt. I am not referring to any drivetrain slack either this is after that occurs it will jolt then continue to accelerate sometimes normally and sometimes lurchy. I wish one of you guys were local to give you a ride so you know exactly what im talking about. Wanna take a day trip to Chicago? :-)
If the surging is still present after driving with the 02's disconnected which I think it will be I might do one last trip to the dealer insisting the car is fixed or I will not take it back. I will bring with me all the info in this thread from you guys and even get someone high up from Acura involved as well if need be. I do not want to think about selling this car because it really is nice and I love it, but I dont think I can keep this thing with this surging on my mind ALL the time.
Thanks,
James
05-26-2011, 12:01 PM
#92
Safety Car
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
Another question for I Hate Cars and nfnsquared.
Still thinking of possibilities before I take the car to the dealership one last time. After more reading I wanted to be 100% sure that it was not the clutch doing goofy things since every now and then I do get a slight jolt after pushing the pedal down rapidly as well. I went and did a couple 3rd and 4th gear low RPM WOT runs and also applied the brake to keep speed constant. The clutch holds perfectly and have never experienced anything abnormal as far as that goes. Hold nicely on quick shifts too.
So the other thing I saw come up a lot in searches for hesitation and surging etc etc was oil. I changed the oil about a week after buying the car using OEM filter and M1 5w-20. I put in the exact amount as stated in the manual 4.5 qt however after checking the disptcik it actually seems to be over filled. Some of the threads mentioned that vtec works in conjunction with oil pressure. My car does not have any issues at the higher rpm's but is there any possibility that slight overfill can have some sort of effect that im getting? That question also leads me to ask, if the oil quantity is 4.5 qt's and I allowed it to drain for a long time is it possible that that much oil remained in the motor that didnt drain during the oil change? Draining some oil is easy enough but do you guys think its necessary?
The picture of the dipstick was taken this morning on a 100% cooled motor, but I also checked the oil after shutting the motor off yesterday and letting it sit for 5 minutes and it was at the exact same level. I have about 2,500 miles on this oil as of right now.
The other picture shows whats remaining in the 5qt jug after I filled the car.
I know this all may be completely unrelated but im trying to think of any and all possibilities. I honestly dont recall if the car did this when I bought it so its hard to say if it started after I bought it or has been doing it all along but I just didnt notice it until I got more comfortable with the car and more miles on it.
Thanks,
James
Still thinking of possibilities before I take the car to the dealership one last time. After more reading I wanted to be 100% sure that it was not the clutch doing goofy things since every now and then I do get a slight jolt after pushing the pedal down rapidly as well. I went and did a couple 3rd and 4th gear low RPM WOT runs and also applied the brake to keep speed constant. The clutch holds perfectly and have never experienced anything abnormal as far as that goes. Hold nicely on quick shifts too.
So the other thing I saw come up a lot in searches for hesitation and surging etc etc was oil. I changed the oil about a week after buying the car using OEM filter and M1 5w-20. I put in the exact amount as stated in the manual 4.5 qt however after checking the disptcik it actually seems to be over filled. Some of the threads mentioned that vtec works in conjunction with oil pressure. My car does not have any issues at the higher rpm's but is there any possibility that slight overfill can have some sort of effect that im getting? That question also leads me to ask, if the oil quantity is 4.5 qt's and I allowed it to drain for a long time is it possible that that much oil remained in the motor that didnt drain during the oil change? Draining some oil is easy enough but do you guys think its necessary?
The picture of the dipstick was taken this morning on a 100% cooled motor, but I also checked the oil after shutting the motor off yesterday and letting it sit for 5 minutes and it was at the exact same level. I have about 2,500 miles on this oil as of right now.
The other picture shows whats remaining in the 5qt jug after I filled the car.
I know this all may be completely unrelated but im trying to think of any and all possibilities. I honestly dont recall if the car did this when I bought it so its hard to say if it started after I bought it or has been doing it all along but I just didnt notice it until I got more comfortable with the car and more miles on it.
Thanks,
James
05-26-2011, 02:13 PM
#93
Safety Car
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
Drained the oil to be exactly at the top of th hash marks. I isn't measure what came out but if I were to guess it was around half a quart to 3/4's of a quart to get it at full mark.
Drove the car to work and was pleasantly surprised with a very smooth drive although later in the drive I did get some minimal surging accelerating in 2nd gear. I have a feeling the nice driving was mainly due to the much cooler temps outside today. It's only 53 degrees out there. So it does seem this issue is effected by outside temp. Well it was a shot anyway.
Thanks,
James
Drove the car to work and was pleasantly surprised with a very smooth drive although later in the drive I did get some minimal surging accelerating in 2nd gear. I have a feeling the nice driving was mainly due to the much cooler temps outside today. It's only 53 degrees out there. So it does seem this issue is effected by outside temp. Well it was a shot anyway.
Thanks,
James
05-26-2011, 02:34 PM
#94
Team Owner
Sorry, I've only got a second but having it that far over won't hurt a thing. You can be off by a lot and still be ok.
05-26-2011, 03:10 PM
#95
Race Director
You'd been fine without draining...not a chance that that slight of an overfill would be causing your issues.
05-26-2011, 03:25 PM
#96
Safety Car
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
Ok thanks a lot for the input guys just wanted to make sure. Who knows maybe I should still try a new IAT sensor since there only around 30 bucks. Only reason I didn't consider it was because autotap software showed what seemed to be correct readings and obviously no check engine light. So I just assume it's working as it should.
I think we have pretty much exhausted every possibility that I can do relatively easily on my own. If I ever figure it out I will for sure post it.
Thanks guys,
James
I think we have pretty much exhausted every possibility that I can do relatively easily on my own. If I ever figure it out I will for sure post it.
Thanks guys,
James
08-29-2011, 03:07 PM
#98
Im not sure how i got sucked into reading this thread, i think all the IHC knowledge sucked me in! Anyways, i doubt i know 1/10th of what IHC knows, but through reading all of this one thing keeps popping into my head. Air Intake! It almost sounds like when you start getting on it and/or when vtec kicks in, the car is pulling in hot air. We all know our cars run better when its cool outside and its because colder air is more dense. Is there a chance that little shield between the driver side headlight and the battery is missing? It is there to divert the flow of air from the stock cold air intake into the rest of the air intake system. If it is there then have you checked the rest of the air intake system? If you arent sure what im talking about let me know and i will take a picture. If i am way off base then im sorry, lol!
07-08-2014, 09:19 AM
#99
Hi All,
I know old thread... but my manual '07 type s is experiencing this same surging problem below 2k rpm in gears 2-6. I'll try some of the suggestions (cruise control, APP, IAT) but curious if JTS97Z28 ever solved this problem.
The dealer just did a valve adjustment at 53k miles and I noticed a power improvement and then this surging issue started, not sure if it was "hidden" or if the valve adjustment somehow caused it.
Anyhelp is always appreciated, thanks-
I know old thread... but my manual '07 type s is experiencing this same surging problem below 2k rpm in gears 2-6. I'll try some of the suggestions (cruise control, APP, IAT) but curious if JTS97Z28 ever solved this problem.
The dealer just did a valve adjustment at 53k miles and I noticed a power improvement and then this surging issue started, not sure if it was "hidden" or if the valve adjustment somehow caused it.
Anyhelp is always appreciated, thanks-
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