JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Found the knock sensor wire connector on the passenger side of the intake manifold. It was pretty easy to reach in and disconnect it. Im going to go give the car a quick drive with the knock sensor disconnected.

James

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Did some tinkering this morning tried driving with the knock sensor disconnected and that did not change anything. Infact it was the first start of the day and it hesitated worse than it ever has the first time I accelerated then got back to normal hesitation after that.
Then tried disconnecting the IAT sensor.. Same lurchy aceleration.
Lastly I disconnected the EGR and again same thing.

So I dont know if that helps eliminate anything or not but if it does the same thing with those things disconnected I would think that eliminates them as possibilities.

I picked up 6 cheap autolite copper spark plugs and I think im gonna put those in just to eliminate the possibility of it being the plugs. I will hold onto my original NGK's incase new plugs dont change anything.

James

nfnsquared

Did you give up on trying a new APP sensor?

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Well the main reason I have been doing all this other stuff first was because I dont want to throw parts into this car if I dont have to. Or I would like to atleast eliminate as many possibilities as I can first. The reason I didnt dig too deep into the APP sensor was because from what I can see the throttle works perfectly smooth. I removed the intake tube and had my wife move the throttle in the car several times (slow, fast, constant etc etc) and the blade worked 100% smooth. So wouldnt that right there eliminate the APP sensor? Or does the APP sensor do other engine control stuff based on where the pedal is? and has nothing to do with actually sending the signal to open and close the throttle?

ALso, and for what its worth I tried doing some acceleration using cruise control and it seemed that the shakiness still occurred which I thought would eliminate the APP sensor as well.

James

nfnsquared

The throttle cable runs from the pedal to the APP sensor. The APP sensor sends voltage signals to the ECM based on pedal (cable position). (The APP sensor is actual dual sensors, each sending a voltage signal to the ECM. The ECM compares the two voltage signals. If they're different, then the ECM puts the car into limp mode.) The ECM then controls the throttle actuator based on the voltage received from the APP sensor.

I supposed if the APP sensor is sending sporadic voltages to the ECU (due to a sensor fault or a sticking/jerky cable movement), this could be causing your problem. Sticking/jerky cable movement could be caused by either the mechanical dial/wheel in the APP sensor or improper cable adjustment.

Have you checked the cable for proper adjustment?

Yes, as I understand it, cruise control bypasses the APP sensor. Cruise control is just the ECM controlling the throttle actuator based on given speed, not voltage input from the APP sensor.

nfnsquared

^^^ I should add that I think the APP sensor is a long shot, but others have reported remarkable changes with a new sensor.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Alright well I have tried absolutely everything that I can without spending much money and/or free.

To date here is what I have done.

-Changed oil to Mobile 1 synthetic 5W20
-Ran a few tanks of high quality premium 93 octane fuel and first tank I used a bottle of techron
-Reset computer
-cleaned IAT sensor and throttle body
-inspected throttle blade visually and watched movement while wife pressed pedal (movement seemed perfect and smooth)

Those were the simple and most obvious things.

Today I did the following
-Swapped coils with my wifes 04 Accord V6 (identical parts) and this did not fix the problem.
-I then installed new spark plugs which did nothing as well.
-drove with knock sensor disconnected....no change
-drove with EGR disconnected...no change
-drove with IAT disconnected...no change (all of these done seperatly)

Ok so now im out of ideas. What do I do to get my dealership to fix this car and say I do not want it back until its fixed. Two times already the car came back with "it drove fine" "no check engine lights" and this was after I got the service advisor AND tech to both tell me they felt the shaking.

So now what? :-)

James

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Ahh F it. I have done everything I can imagine to the car and nothing. I swapped in the EGR from the wifes car and that did nothing. Tried driving with the 02 sensors disconnected so it would leave it in open loop once again did nothing. I give up. Is it possible that something with the clutch could be doing this? I dont notice any slippage I have done some pretty quick shifting it it holds nicely will chirp the gears going into 2nd and 3rd. Fucking car

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

have you tried the "higher octane" suggestion?

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Nope. Its not something I can easily just go and fill up with. I dont know where to get higher octane fuel around Chicago. Not only that but I thought disconnecting the knock sensor would have the same effect?

speedytypes

I admire your perseverance, i've mentioned in your previous post that I have the same problem, maybe not as noticeable as you seem to describe it. But i too notice a fluctuation in power during accelaration while holding my foot in the same position. I sometimes notice that as i lift up slowly it surges and has at moments small bursts of power. Good luck with figuring this out and. I will try to feed this thing some octane booster and ill see if itll help smooth things out.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Humm I just thought of something. Since nothing I have done seems to fix this problem, another thread in this section made me think of something. In this thread: https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-problems-fixes-114/07-tl-s-squeeky-belt-noise-issue-807572/ its talked about of a squeeky belt on the 07/08 TL-S's and there is a TSB for this issue. It has something to do with the tensioner bolts coming loose over time and allowing excessive play in the belt. Well I have noticed that upon cold starts I do infact get this chirping/squeeling soound sometimes. I wonder if its possible that I am feeling this belt kind of grab and slip during acceleration causing a weird lurching feeling during acceleration? There is however no screeching or noises coming from under the hood when im feeling the jerky acceleration. Oh well just an idea and atleast there is a TSB for this that way I know for sure it can be fixed from the dealership. Ideas?

James

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

n/m on the above. Turns out the TSB is just for a bolt replacement and causes the belt to be slight mis-aligned and NOT loose.

I tried doing the ECU reset procedure again today (which I dont even know if it officially works or is the right procedure), but the car does seem to be driving pretty smooth right now. Could all be in my mind I dont know. Im starting to wonder if the original owner used regular grade fuels and now since I purchased the car its going to take some time for it to run good on the premium fuels and also clean up any deposits. I remember a post where I guy said the exact same thing and it took him like 4 tanks of gas before it started running right.

james

nfnsquared

Read this:

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-problems-fixes-114/replaced-app-sensor-today-817806/

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for posting that link. Interesting stuff now I gotta figure out what I want to do. I have an appointment tomorrow morning at a different dealership however there are a few other things I do want to get fixed with my car (TSB's) so I think I may still bring it in. Also, this dealership just got in a 07 manual Type S so it would give me the opportunity to drive another manual and compare and/or the dealership to compare. So do I tell this dealership someone replaced the APP sensor and the results were smooth acceleration? or do I just do it myself and buy the part? Im sure they wouldnt be a fan of a customer telling them what parts to replace, but at the same time the other dealership said the car was working fine.

james

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

UPDATE:

Just got a call from the dealership (2nd dealership I have tried with MUCh mroe helpful tech). Possibly good news is that after taking several vehicle "snapshots" and spending a day diagnosing they did find a lean condition and misfire. Thats all the details I have as of now as this information was coming from the service advisor and not the tech directly. From what the advisor said no parts were replaced however updated software was installed and as of now the tech cant get any hesitation or surging to occur. Im pretty confident because I spend literally 45 minutes driving my 08 6mt Type S and a 07 6mt Type S that they had on the lot for sale so he should be very familiar with what I was talking about and how to best get it to happen. They were doing a couple other minor things and are waiting on a replacement key so I probably wont be getting the car back till friday morning but as of now im pretty excited. Acura tech Scott at Joe Rizza Acura in Orland Park is VERY helpful for anyone else in the Chicago area.
I can post more info about what was happening with the car when I speak to the tech directly about the issue.

Thanks,
James

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

UPDATE:

Just got a call from the dealership (2nd dealership I have tried with a MUCH more helpful tech). Possibly good news is that after taking several vehicle "snapshots" and spending a day diagnosing they did find a lean condition and misfire. Thats all the details I have as of now as this information was coming from the service advisor and not the tech directly. From what the advisor said no parts were replaced however updated software was installed and as of now the tech cant get any hesitation or surging to occur. Im pretty confident because we spent literally 45 minutes test driving my 08 6mt Type S and a 07 6mt Type S that they had on the lot for sale so he should be very familiar with what I was talking about and how to best get it to happen. They were doing a couple other minor things and are waiting on a replacement key so I probably wont be getting the car back till friday morning but as of now im pretty excited. Acura tech Scott at Joe Rizza Acura in Orland Park is VERY helpful for anyone else in the Chicago area.
I can post more info about what was happening with the car when I speak to the tech directly about the issue.

Thanks,
James

I hate cars

That's great news. A lean condition will no doubt cause surging. I have a program for mpg for the GN and its so lean that if the freeway is not perfectly flat it will surge badly. Maybe this is the answer for the pinging problems so many of these car have. I'm surprised it didn't throw a CEL but it might not have met the time requirements to throw a light or its a software issue. Either way looking forward to the final results.

cjTL

iTrader: (2)

Glad to hear you're finally getting this figured out. Funny, what seems like a small issue always turns out to drive you nuts!

nfnsquared

Hmmm....Did they find an actual lean condition.... or did they find that the ECM was sensing a lean condition? What testing methodology did they use to make this finding?

I'm confused because if you had an actual lean condition the ECM should have detected it and thrown a code.

What version did they use for the update? There is a TSB (08-043) for your car to correct a case of the ECM falsely sensing a lean condition and throwing a code. I'm curious if they just flashed that version of firmware (listed in the TSB) into the ECM.

Hopefully the re-flash solves your problem

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Well like I said I only spoke with the service advisor so I was getting the information from the middle man (in this case middle women Heather) so she was probably doing nothing more than read the brief description that the tech put into the sheet or computer. I do not pick up the car until tomorrow morning as they had a couple other things to finish and he also wanted to do a little more research on the original issue. When I dropped the car off I spoke with the tech, we drove around for literally 45 minutes in my type s and another manual type s that they happened to have on the lot. He was very helpful and he told me that he was going to start off by taking vehicle "snapshots" of my car and the other 6mt type s they had in stock. He said he was going to be speaking with the engineers or whoever it is that the acura techs deal with in these types of cases. At this point all I know is that the advisor Heather told me there was a lean condition and misfires found, new software was flashed onto the car, and after test drives the tech said the car drove very smoothly. Im going to keep my fingers crossed. Sometimes when my car jolted (depending on how I applied throttle) it felt exactly how a misfire would feel.

I will have more details tomorrow morning with what exactly was done to the car and if the problem is even fixed.

James

I hate cars

Don't worry, it really sounds like a lean condition. There's a set of rules required to set a code. This might have slipped through the cracks. A code is only a secondary measure anyway. If you can drive the car and see that it's running lean via the 02 milivolts on the scanner, it's running lean no matter if there's a code or not. A lean condition can cause a misfire. A misfire can cause a false rich condition and the ECU will mistakenly lean it out. Whichever came first, I have high hopes this is going to fix your issue.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Another update: No good news...

So my third trip to the dealership (different dealer than first) sounded promising but did absolutely nothing. I assume they put the software thats in that lean condition TSB on the car, but sure enough I felt the shaking/surging/jolting literally pulling out of the dealership. Service advisor claimed that tech felt no issues after the reflash but he was obviously full of shit. I did not go back as im getting real sick of dealing with these people.
So after that fiasco I decided I will try the APP sensor. My local dealer had one in stock so I bought it and tried it today. Problem STILL exists it drove no differently with the brand new sensor. I removed the new one packaged it up perfectly like its never been touched and im going to return it. Sooo that sucks but thats just one more thing eliminated.

Today is the first actual hot day here in chicago it has hit low 90's and I have noticed its slightly worse in the hot temps. Whats weird is its most noticeable accelerating through second now when I swear before it was 3rd. At any rate its more noticeable when hot outside, is sometimes intermittent as every once in a while I get a nice smooth acceleration which to me eliminates anything mechanical.

WTF

nfnsquared

^^^Well, then I'd say it's the IAT sensor, but....

It still might be worth trying a brand new IAT sensor...

I lost track, did you replace the EGR valve or pull it and blow it out?

What version did they flash? And exactly how were they detecting the lean condition?

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

I dont know what version the paperwork might say if thats something you really want to know that might help. He did not say how he detected these condition all he said was they take vehicle "snapshots" which shows everything. I didnt talk to the tech when I picked the car up. I probably should have but would have been funny to task him if he detected the lean condition and misfires after the new software update because the problem is still present.

As far as the IAT sensor I dont know because I tried swapping one in from my wifes accord which on the first drive did nothing so I just said screw it and put my original back in. What was weird is the car then triggered a CEL on first startup using my original. I looked up part numbers and they were the same between my car and my wifes 4 yr older accord so figured I could swap without a problem. I wonder why a CEL was triggered. Also, for what its worth using my Autotap software the engine was getting temp readings that seemed accurate.

I have cleaned the EGR that did nothing, I drove with the EGR disconnected did nothing, I put the EGR valve from my wifes accord and that did nothing.


James

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

I pulled both IAT sensors, the one from my 08 Type S and the other from my wifes 04 accord V6. Parts websites list the part number 37880-PDA-E01 for both cars so I would imagine even the original installed sensors would be swappable.
There are some numbers on the sensors which are different but those numbers might be unrelated to the actual part numbers im not sure. When I put the sensor from the accord into the type S I never reset the computer but I didnt think I would need to since I thought it gets its info real time and if the sensor was the problem it would have been fixed immediately had that been it. I could try her sensor again and reset the computer and drive longer I dont know.

Here is a picture of them side by side the one from my acura being on the right.

I hate cars

These guys don't need to take snap shots, they need to stare at the monitor real time when it's doing what it's doing. Did they actually say this fixed the lean condition? There's no way you're going to have a lean condition, fix it, and the car drive the same way as before. These guys' incompetence is amazing but expected.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

No they did not actually say it fixed the lean condition. All the advisor said was after the reflash the tech felt no surging (or whatever you wanna call it). That was BS because it did it as I left the dealership. So the original claim of a lean condition and misfires was never mentioned once they said the car was ready for pickup. So did they fix this so called lean condition and misfire? Not likely.... Did they fix the surging? Fuck no

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Well I guess I need to call this dealership back and ask them if this so called lean condition and misfire was even fixed. And also tell them the main problem is still present. I think I need to speak with someone higher up at Acura and demand this car is fixed and do not want it back until it is. The surging is very obvious now in this outside heat.

nfnsquared

Did they confirm fuel pressure was normal?

I hate cars

This is exactly what my car does and it's always temperature related. Below 78 degrees it runs fine. Above, it surges and sometimes I have to nearly floor it just to keep up with the flow of traffic on a 105 degree day. I'm well aware that any car falls off as the temp rises but this thing gets dangerously slow.

Mine is detonation. I've verified it with the scanner and it goes away with a mix of 100 octane. Maybe mine is detonating because it's running lean, I didn't have enough time with the scanner to find out.

The thing is, this is soooo simple. The tech rides in the car, he gets it into the surge condition. He monitors the 02 milivolts in this range to see if it's running lean. He compares bank 1 and bank 2 to see if you might have one bad 02 sensor, he looks at long and short trim fuel trims. Whether or not it's running lean can be diagnosed in a few seconds after the car starts surging. If both banks are running lean, it's not injectors and probably not 02s, it's fuel pump or regulator. If one bank is running lean, it could be an 02 but it could be injectors.

If could be a false rich causing a lean condition. A misfire will show a false super rich condition so the ECU leans it out to compensate. The problem is, it's not really running rich so now it's too lean. Either way, this can be diagnosed by comparing the two banks and you may have to get old school and pull out the IR temp gun and shoot the exhaust to get a temp. No matter what, this is something that can be pin pointed in a couple hours if they know what they're doing.

Just keep in mind that the 02 sensors check the upstream sensors' calculations. If the IAT was bad you would see a shift in LT fuel trim and it would eventually self correct.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Well the car by no means gets as bad as you said yours does, I never have to floor it to keep up with traffic, infact it still scoots along real nicely. This problem is 100% during NORMAL driving and remember it still does it when its cool outside, but since we finally hit 80's/90's I noticed its more prevelent now and can really be felt in 2nd gear depending on throttle position. My question is why is this issue only most felt in the 2nd and 3rd gear range? If it was some sort of fuel issue wouldnt it do this in any gear no matter what?

To answer nfnsquared questions I have no idea they didnt confirm anything with me.

I hate cars

It's harder to feel issues like this in the higher gears since the engine has less leverage on the wheels. On the flip side, first has so much torque that it would be hard to feel there too.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Since the birth of this thread, I'm interested in seeing if a mix of 100 octane would fix the surging.

nfnsquared

Well, one of the first things they should have done if a lean condition was detected was to check fuel pressure. Need to have that ruled out....

Also, I'm still suspect of their method used to detect the "lean condition"....

vr6vdub

Add me to the list. My car surges exactly as you describe. Now that the weather is warming up, I also get very bad knock retard after sitting in light traffic for a few minutes.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

nfnsquared,
Well next time I bring it in I will for sure speak more to the tech and explain to him basically everything you and "I Hate Cars" have talked about. I will mention fuel pressure and I will also ask about real time monitoring while we take it for a drive instead of what he refers to as "vehicle snapshots". I will ask him if the so called lean condition and mis-fires were actually fixed, because my main problem certainly wasnt.

I did a lot more driving today in 91 degree outside temps. What I find weird is that occasionally acceleration is perfectly smooth through all the gears and sometimes it does the whole shaky shaky thing (sometimes worse than others). What gives? What could cause this to be an intermittent thing? Considering how this issue has kind of changed from being felt most in 3rd gear, to now mostly 2nd, feels a little more significant in hotter outside temps, and sometimes accelerates perfectly smooth really does sound like a computer/fuel type issue....I guess.... Any comments on what I just said about it being intermittent?

James

I hate cars

It's a long shot but try turning the traction control off. I swear sometimes this seems to greatly help it when mine gets very bad.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

JTS - i would still try to rule out the gas component that IHC initially raised... if you can't find high octane gas, I would recommend posting a thread in the region specific forums... perhaps a few of your locals will know... good luck and keep us posted... i could def see how this would become annoying...