JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

I posted over in the problem forums of a slight issue so it seems with my newly acquired 08 Type S 6mt. Overall the car is wonderful however I noticed mostly in 3rd gear that the engine kind of surges slightly. Didnt get many ideas over there so I finally took the car to Acura this morning. I was able to easily duplicate the issue to the tech when we went for a ride and he clearly stated he felt the surging and simply inconsistant acceleration. This is NOT a transmission issue this is not during shifting, its completely while in gear with foot off clutch there is a slight pulsating to the acceleration kind of like the feeling when you can feel your a/c compressor going on and off but this is a more noticeable and happens many times together.

So since the 6mt Type S is very hard to come by its not like I can just go drive another one so I was wondering if anyone with a 6mt Type S could do the following. This is how I can get the car to do it the most.
In 3rd gear get to a constant 1800rpm or so. Then while there give the car moderate throttle input (do not floor it, I would say best is between half throttle and 3/4 throttle). Does your car accelerate perfectly smooth or do you feel some uneveness or surging? If you give it throttle quickly my car almost actually jolts sometimes.

Thanks very much for your help guys.

James

RainSupreme

I personally have never felt what your describing, always have smooth acceleration, but I can't say that I have done exactly what you are explaining to do. My car is currently at the dealership so when I get it back I can pay particular attention to this and report back to you

SilverJ

Ill give it a try for you when I go out for lunch. FYI--I have a 08 type S manual. I dont know how to change my signature.

SDSilverM3

I'll report back shortly.

egprelude

iTrader: (1)

Do you have a hard time engaging the clutch smoothly when in gear?

SilverJ

OK changed the sig.
I tested it in 3rd gear--1800rpm, hit the gas. Smooth all the way thru up to about 6000 rpm. Tried it in 4th too.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

No, besides this issue the car drives 100% amazingly. Very smooth, very quiet, the transmission works flawlessly as does the clutch. Just this weird pulsating/inconsistant acceleration that is mainly felt in 3rd gear and sometimes 2nd at somewhat lower rpm's.



Alright thanks very much for taking the time to do that. So there is definetaly something going on with my car. Tech told me after the ride he has no clue what it could be but he said its obviously not tranny related.


Anymore input is greatly appreciated.

James

mau108

My 07 has smooth acceleration.

SDSilverM3

No problems here. No surges or lurching all the way up to redline.

7twenty7

James,
My TL-S is automatic but if it's not tranny related: does it happen between certain speeds? Let's say between 20-30 or 30-40mph?
I had a similar experience with my '05 Accord and the issue was a bad left drive axle and a bearing.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Well apparently is does happen between certain speeds because I can sometimes feel it while accelerating through 2nd gear, but its most noticeable accelerating in 3rd gear. So whatever speeds your at during normal acceleration in 3rd gear is when it happens and seems to smooth out and stop doing it above 3500rpm. I do not recall it doing any surging whatsoever in 1st, or 4th, 5th, or 6th. So right there would kind of point it towards being some sort of tranny issue, but how could that be? It works perfectly...possibly clutch related? but I couldnt explain that either as I notice no slipping whatsoever, clutch engages perfectly and smoothly etc etc. No check engine light, car drives absolutely perfectly otherwise..Gets great fuel economy, and ideals incredibly smooth.

Another way to possibly describe the feeling is as if the motor is pulling timing and putting it back in quickly. I only use premium fuels, mobile one 5w20 synthetic oil....

I will also report back as soon as I hear from the dealership. Hopefully its not going to be the dreaded "we cannot find anything wrong Honda says its normal operation" kind of call. All I know is that when I had the tech sitting next to me I got the car to do it a couple times that was very noticeable..infact I saw his head kind of move front and back when the car was surging lol. Im like did you feel that and he said "yup".

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Wellp I got the call from the dealership. As I kind of figured they cant find anything wrong with the car. They had 3 different techs look it over and drive, hooked it up to the computer, visually inspected everything including motor mounts. Cant find anything wrong. The service advisor who dealt with me was helpful and said he has had many manual tranny Honda's including his current S2000 and he did mention maybe it could be because of the clutch delay valve, but then I dont see how that would effect the car while in a gear accelerating. But at any rate there is nothing they can do at this time so im gonna be picking the car up. Just for your information its by no means horrible, the car is perfectly driveable its just something I notice, but figured I would give it a try and see if something was infact wrong. Oh well what can ya do. I think what im going to do is next time I see a manual Type S for sale locally I will test drive it and see what it does when I do the exact same thing I do in my own Type S.

Thanks for all the help guys.

James

long4928

I have an '08 and mine does the exact same thing. Thought I was losing my mind. Dealer told me nothing was wrong because they could not duplicate. They said the same about the hard shifting into 3rd gear. They wanted nothing to do with my car. They can kiss my ass.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Im trying to dig as deep as I can into these forums and came across yet another thread with what seems to be explained as very similar to what im experiencing. See this thread:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...light=lurching

I will try and PM that user and see if he ever got anywhere with his fixes.

James

7twenty7

James,
That is really weird and I know it could be very annoying. I hope it is nothing major, perhaps some sensor or settings are not up to par. Have you tried to reset the ECU or disconnecting the battery?
Good luck to you and give out some updates

SilverJ

I had an 04 TL manual tranny prior to this one. Traded in at 122k so I am familiar with pretty much anything that goes wrong with these cars.
Do you feel a vibration under your drivers side seat ? Any vibration in the steering wheel ?

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Nooo nothing like that. Car is 100% smooth, drives like a new car in everyway except for what I am describing. Also for what its worth it is minor its me just being very picky but something I notice nonetheless. After even more driving time it almost seems that it is not related to a specific gear and more so just a lower RPM surging.
From all my researching these are what people mention the most for a surging/hesitating/lurching/bucking/studdering TL:
TPS
IAT
APP
EGR
PCV
knock sensor
02 sensors
etc etc I guess technically there are tons of things that can cause such an issue but these are what come up the most.

SilverJ

I dont think your being sensitive. YOU know something is wrong wiht your car, and if you feel it, its there. I did have the APP sensor replaced in my last TL--this was after 3 visits to the stealership(where they kept finding nothing) and I finally told THEM what to replace. The visits didnt cost me, but time is money and I burned a lot of time going back and forth there, leaving the car, being late for work, etc.
The check engine light would come on for the APP sensor though and the car would go into limp mode (cant rev over 3k rpm's or so)

paki_munda

Does this happen only when the car is cold?

I notice a similar issue, like a hesitation/jerking when accelerating. But I mostly notice it when the car is cold, so I've been ignoring it for this reason. That being said, I drive like an old lady when the car is cold to not put any stress on it, so that combined with trying to keep the RPM low when cold may have something to do with this. Now, things change once it's warmed up, so I've never tried to reproduce the issue once it's warmed up, but I can't recall experiencing this other than when it's cold.

I hate cars

It makes me so mad that the dealers are so imcompetent.

The app sensor is a good place to start. Inconsistent acceleration is a symptom. Have you tried cruise control under the same conditions, using the accel feature? Although this won't completely eliminate the app sensor, it definitely makes it less likely.

If you don't mind spending the money, you can get a few gallons of 100 octane unleaded and throw it in the tank when it's nearly empty just to rule out timing.

The techs should have been able to figure it out but as I've said I've had to walk them through their own diagnostic equipment. When looking for a pinging issue, they looked for codes instead of knock retard in real time. I had to show them the knock retard function on their own equipment. They just don't know how to read and interpret live data.

If it's detonation it would show as knock retard. If it's was a lazy 02 sensor but not bad enough to set a code they could check cross counts. They could compare bank 1 vs bank 2 to determine if you might have a dirty injector or a lazy sensor. They could look at the EGR DC%. They could look at throttle opening % and see if it's steady. They could look at LV8 values. LT fuel trims, etc.

The live data is very valuable if they know how to read it and usually you can find some kind of problem but I think most of them use the tools as a code reader only. The car can run pretty bad before any one sensor is out of range enough to set a code.

I hate to say to start throwing parts at it but unless you have access to live data to look at for yourself, this might be one of the only options. You can start with the 100 octane though. I would wait until the low fuel light comes on and add a few gallons. You want to make sure you have at least 96 octane because this is the minimum required for mine to show no knock retard. I know it sucks to throw money away like that when it probably won't fix the problem.

I hate cars

Almost forgot, is this a real sharp sensation? Have you ruled out ignition? Usually it will get worse under heavier loads and when hot but not always. It can misfire a little before setting codes. If it's only every few seconds it might not set a code, at least not right away.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Well here is some additional things I have found out with even more driving time. It seems that this surging occurs a little more heavily while the engine is cold and still warming up (just seems to be more obvious then). It does it even while at full operating temp as well, just not as prevelant. Before I said it was only in third gear however I have found that it seems to happen in any gear just most obvious in 3rd. What makes it happen the worst is medium to moderate throttle starting at around 1800ish rpm and I would say under somewhat heavy load. It is not a sharp sensation more of a gradual feeling of timing being pulled and re-applied. So since it seems I can feel it in any gear under load I think it is for sure engine related and nothing to do with the clutch or transmission.
Again, I want to state that it is not bad per say, and if you drive the car perfectly normal you probably wouldnt notice it, but say you need to give the car a little more gas while at 1800rpm or so...you can just feel some surging and overall unsmooth acceleration. I have tried the accelerate with cruise contorl method and it seemed to still do it.

What really sucks about the dealership is I gave a tech a ride and my service advisor and both of them for sure felt it and even admitted to me they do. I told them I had other type S owners do the same thing with 100% smooth results.

I would try the high octane thing but no clue where to get that around here in the southwest Chicago burbs.

James

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

No work today so im just tickering around with the car trying to diagnose that hesitation issue I have been having with my 08 TL-S 6mt. I pulled a plug out for the heck of it to see how it looked. Car has 44,000 miles it appears the iridium tip is still in place and from my experience the plug looks fine but what do you guys think? Seems like a plug change is simple but do I waste 60 bucks on new NGK's if the car really doesnt need them? I just want to fix the hesitation and im not getting any help from the dealer on this one.
I only pulled one plug so I assume the rest look similar but obviously dont know unless I pull all of them.
So do I leave the plugs alone and look elsewhere?

Thanks,
James

mau108

that plug looks like it has plent of life left in it. Regap and put it back in (regap all of them).

I hate cars

It looks ok. Will the deposits wipe off easily with your finger? They're probably fuel additives but make sure it's not aluminum from a piston. Very unlikely but it's worth mentioning.

nfnsquared

They look plenty good still, but do not regap them. Check the gap and replace if not in spec (0.044" IIRC). How many miles on them?

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Just got done doing some more screwing around. I checked all 3 front plugs they all look perfectly fine with at spec gaps. I also removed the throttle body to do some cleaning and it too and as far as I can see into the intake manifold was surprisingly clean. I also had the wife sit in the car with ignition on and cycle the throttle. The throttle blade moved 100% smoothly as she pressed and depressed the throttle.
Ok so doesn't appear to be spark plugs or the TB. I guess its gotta be some sort of sensor, but the damn thing isnt setting off the check engine light errrrrrrrrrr. I wonder if I go to autozone the code scanner might show some stuff in history I dunno?

James

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

I just got a reply from a forum member that I PM'ed a few days back regarding this issue. I searched and it seemed he had a similar issue as me and he did all sorts of diagnosing and replacing all sorts of parts. His reply was saying the IAT sensor was the culprit (the one mounted on the intake manifold) and that it will not throw an engine code if its bad, or atleast it didnt in his case either. Well I guess its worth a shot its only 28 bucks and easy to get to. Sounds like it could be possible if the engine is tuning for a temperature other than what it is could easily throw things off.
37880-PDA-E01 SENSOR ASSY., AIR TEMPERATURE

Any other ideas?

James

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Swapped out the IAT sensor from my wifes 04 Accord V6 which is the exact same part number and the problem was unfortunately still there. Oh well it was free and now I atleast eliminated one possibility.

james

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

EDIT: So since it didnt appear that the IAT sensor swap did anything I put the my original IAT back into the acura. First time I start the car the check engine light comes on. hummmm this is weird. Ok so I went to autozone to get the code and it was P0113 or whatever which was IAT sensor. Sooo I wonder why it threw a code once I put the original back in. Could it have sensed a good sensor from my wifes accord then once I went back to the original possibly defective sensor it decided to throw the code? It also seems to be hesitating slightly worse than before as well.
Either way I set up the appointment to bring it back to acura tomorrow morning and I could probably get a new IAT sensor out of the deal. We will see what happens out of all of this.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

wishing you luck, and hoping it is the IAT as you chased and chased for a while.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Got nowhere once again with the dealer.

Im thinking about buying autotap (http://www.autotap.com/product_learnmore.asp) and instead of throwing parts at the car use this tool to monitor what each sensor is doing. It seems pretty cheap and easy to use with my laptop in the car. Anyuone have any input on some of these types of things? I dont think I want one of those dash mount ones as they are probably more expensive and I dont think would give me as much info as a laptop based system that comes with special software.

James

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

might want to keep an eye on this thread.

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-problems-fixes-114/new-owner-2005-tl-6-speed-816737/

I know I dismissed the APP sensor, butt:

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Alright thanks I will be watching that thread.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Well I purchased autotap and tried it out this afternoon. Im a little disappointed because I didnt come up with much. For those not familiar its a OBD2 diagnostic tool that you plug into the car and use your laptop.
I wish I was a little more familiar with what I was looking at. Everything is labelled and you can view real time data. Everything looked fine I guess the throttle position went up and down smoothly. The 02 sensor readings seemed similar between the banks. If I had to pick one thing that seemed a little off was the knock retard figures. During normal acceleration in 3rd gear I did see some jumps in knock retard on the live graph, and the other side that gives the actual number seemed to be bouncing around a lot as well. Again, I dont know if this is normal or not, but figured it was worth mentioning.

Does anyone know is it possible to temporarily disable the knock sensor? I know it could potentially be dangerous if there was infact real knock, but my purpose would be just to see if that is my issue by doing a quick drive and if its smooth then im atleast getting somewhere.

James

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

I wasnt able to edit the above post but I didnt mean knock retard I meant timing.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

interesting.
waiting for some one with more experience to chime in.
But from what I just read, I believe the ecu is pulling back timing.

try mixing 100 octane with 93 to make 96 octane to see if it still surges.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Yeah I have been wanting to find some race gas but no clue if and where I can get it. I'm located in the Chicago area in Joliet and would much prefer to just fill up a few gallons from a gas station and not order a container of it lol. Any ideas?

I hate cars

It's normal for timing to move around based on load and rpm but there should be 0 knock retard. Does autotap not show knock retard? If not, the only solution I know is to unplug the knock sensor or add higher octane fuel. You can use toluene or xylene just to see of the timing values change.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Ok that's kind of what I was wondering. So if I disconnect the sensor then try driving it should not pull any timing due to knock (or a bad knock sensor). I know the sensor is hidden under the intake manifold but is there an easy way to disconnect it or "turn it off"?
And no it doesn't look like I can view knock retard. Just timing values.