Recently had my transmission rebuilt it currently has about 1,000 miles on it.
I tend to be in traffic a lot on my way home from work so that means the car shifts from 1st to 2nd more than it should. I noticed that after it happens about 6-7 times, I'll notice a faint shudder that occurs.

I want to mention that when its shifting from 1st the 2nd the car is barely moving (maybe just above 2k rpm, don't know the exact rpm). I'm sure the temperature of the tranny during that time is pretty high which I believe to play a factor. I could be imagining this, but sometimes it seems that the needle for the rpms shakes before it shifts into 2nd. Again, I'm barely giving the car any gas when the shift occurs.

If I were going normal speeds it would shift fine, sometimes producing a quick shift. Not sure if that's because of new parts or what not...

Is this normal at all due to the circumstances?

 

Hope you got a warranty, sounds like the problem my Thunderbird had before the tranny crapped out.

 

Yea I do have warranty, I just wanted to get others opinions on this matter. Especially anyone who sits in stop and go traffic.

I'm not sure what they can replace to fix the 1st and 2nd gear shudder? the clutch pack?

 

I don't know about the shudder, never really paid attention. I normally use SS Mode and put it in 2nd gear in stop and go traffic, so it doesn't go through 1st, 2nd over and over.

 

that's a really smart idea in stop and go traffic - good suggestion

 

I also do the same, but i think once it gets up to 4th and you come to a complete stop it'll go back to 1st. Sometimes the traffic is already moving again so i'll press the gas and it'll quickly shift to 2nd in SS mode. Hopefully that last part makes sense.

 

^it will automatically shift back to 1st anytime you leave 2nd. This is for years '04-06, not sure on '07-'08's...

 

Thanks! I stand corrected

 

Shudder can't be normal. I have never had a shudder in my car. I surely hope your tranny issues are over. For some reason there are so many stories of even the 2nd tranny having issues soon after replacement.

People are lucky if the original tranny stays trouble free, it always seems to last the longest.

 

Yea I really hope I don't have to keep going through tranny issues. Maybe a bad motor mount? but I honestly don't think that's the issue. I'm going to have them checked when I get my compliance bushings installed.

I may wait another 1000 miles before I call the shop up and discuss my issues I'm having. Didn't pay all that money for nothing...

Anyone else that drives through stop and go traffic on a consistent basis please chime in!

Edit to my initial post, it shifts below 2k when in traffic

 

How do you keep it in 2nd in SS? when my 06 is in SS it always upshifts to 2nd so in stop and go traffic its constantly shifting between 1st and 2nd gear, you can hold 1st in auto shift. oops I should read down to post #8

 

i would call the shop as soon as possible to let them know
the sooner they know, the better... i would think

 

Did you went to the shop? If so, what did they say?

 

you don't, you have to place the shift lever into 2nd

 

Good point, I'm just afraid I'll take it there and then I won't be able to reproduce it. I guess I could make the car shift from 1st to 2nd a bunch. That's why I wanted to wait a bit longer.

No I haven't, see above. I wish I had another tl to drive to compare how it shifts in general compared to my car. Or have someone drive mine to compare since it is under warranty.

 

Shudder is never normal under any circumstance. It sounds like they didn't catch what caused the failure before so now you have new clutches and are only getting a shudder on the 1-2 because everything is new. Once the clutches wear from the shudder and they wear excessively every time there shudder, it will probably fail the same way as it did before. I would start with having the shop to back through the valve body. Hopefully all seals and rings are new. I would hate to think they threw some clutches at it and it was a dynamic ring failure causing a lack of pressure to the 2nd gear circuit.

 

Everything seems fine but the 1st to 2nd gear shift. Once my brother brings back my car I'll type out what they did to the car.

I had a feeling that because there were new clutches and rebuilt TC that it's basically masking the shudder so it's not as bad as it was before it failed. From what I recall I do remember them saying something about all new seals and rings. Again, I'll post everything they did from the receipt once I get it.

I also notice I can still smell tranny fluid (like I did before it failed) from the driver side wheel well, I'm assuming I shouldn't be smelling that?

 

So here's everything they did.

1. Master Overhaul Kit
2. Rebuilt Torque Converter
3. New, Main Valve Body assembly
4. New, Regulator Body Assembly
5. New, Servo Body Assembly
6. Cooler Return Filter
7. Both Pressure Switches
8. Dual Linear Solenoid Assembly
9. Single Linear Solenoid
10. End Plug Kit

 

did they clean up the area? If not you would still be smelling the old leaked out fluid

 

Not sure, I'm assuming no if I can smell it. Any good cleaners of the top of your head?

 

This is exactly what I experienced before my torque converter gave out and the tranny took a dump. I would get a shudder at the slower speeds when I wasn't gunning it and right at the 2k rpm mark at like 35 to 45 mph mainly...

 

Can anyone briefly explain what is happening when the shudder occurs? Also what is causing it?

So when I eventually take my car back to the tranny shop I can discuss the matter in more detail...

Thanks an advance!

 

Shudder is slip, intermittent slip. Picture a manual's clutch and pressure plate is it makes it easier. I'm sure some people here have experienced shudder with their manuals as the clutch is almost gone or the surface gets ruined.

You have a clutch pack with several clutches separated with a steel between each clutch. How some manuals have a dual clutch assembly for more holding power in a smaller package, an automatic clutch pack is similar in that they use multiple clutches and steels to get the desired holding power while keeping diameter small, usually from 3"-6" in diameter. The alternative would be to use a large diameter single clutch and steel plate as a manual does but obviously you could never fit 2-5 12" clutches in an auto. A hydraulic piston on one end applies and compresses all of the clutches and steels together, the same as taking your foot off the clutch in a manual does in order to engage the appropriate clutch pack. Some use a band around a drum just a like a band brake instead of a clutch pack but I don't remember any in the TL though it's been a long time.

The shudder is the clutches slipping and grabbing. They will grab and then slip and then grab again. This is the vibration you feel as shudder, it's the rapid grabbing and slipping of a clutch pack or torque converter clutch.

If it's a clutch pack, usually reducing the fluid FM level will help (DexIII or Type F). If it's the torque converter clutch which is made to slip a little, increasing the FM level will help (Lubegard Black and sometimes Red, Z1, DW-1).

The underlying cause is usually low line pressure if it's the transmission clutches and less FM in the fluid is a band-aid but an effective one. Less FM in the fluid gives the clutches more holding power (more friction) so if they're slipping or shuddering it can cure it at least temporarily. I use the term low line pressure generically. It can be main line pressure which affects all gears. It can be a leaking seal on a certain clutch pack's apply piston. The shafts have dynamic sealing rings where pressure can bleed off. These allow fluid to pass through a hollow shaft and apply a piston and they seal in the pressure even though the shaft might be rotating on a stationary shell. There's a ton of rubber seals used in an auto, used to hold back some pretty significant pressure. Many of the apply pistons (just a piston with hydraulic pressure on one side) use rubber seals and they slide back in forth in their bores on these seals. Movement is usually limited to a fraction of an inch but still.

Basically, there are TONS of places an auto can lose pressure. All it takes is for the builder to cut a lip on a rubber seal during assembly or reuse a dynamic metal or teflon seal which is common and it might have been the one that caused the failure in the first place.

An auto has a very limited break-in period. Once it goes through the gears a few times, it's not going to change much if any from the first 30 minutes of use.

I've rambled on and on again but basically shudder is caused from rapid slip-grab from the clutches. It IS slippage in it's first stage. Auto trans clutches are not designed to slip so it takes very little slippage or shudder to burn them up or screw up the clutch face and reduce holding power (think of glazing a manual trans clutch and pressure plate).

The only clutch designed to slip a little is the one in the torque converter. If the wrong clutch lining was used in the torque converter replacement you can have shudder. For example if they used a traditional cellulose lining which is not made to slip you can get shudder. Most modern converters made to slip should have a clutch made of some kind of carbon or kevlar compositon (or whatever they're running today) but most of the time they will all physically interchange with one another.

I would try and confirm it's the actual 1-2 shift and not the converter locking. Does it happen immediately as the shift is taking place or is it right after the shift?

Unlike a lot of autos I've worked on, these lock the converter in 2nd at a relatively low rpm and even when cold/cool otherwise I would rule out the converter.

I would get it fixed as quickly as possible because it will eventually do damage.

You can try starting off in 2nd manually to determine if it's the trans or the converter. If it still shudders at about the same speed, with no shift, it's the converter.

 

Thanks for the in-depth information its kinda hard to follow since I'm in no way shape or form a mechanic but I can get the gist of what your saying.

I believe that the shudder occurs after the shift happens, I'm not exactly sure on this but I will pay more attention tomorrow morning when I drive to work. I'm not following the part where you talk about leaving it in 2nd gear, so i'm suppose to start from 2nd and not shift the car into 3rd and see if it shudders? Could you elaborate on this point.

This shudder usually happens after cruising on the highway. After getting off I'll stop at the light, once I go and the 1st to 2nd shift happens I feel the faint shudder. I've also noticed that sometimes the tranny feels like its loaded/heavier if this makes any sense. When I push the throttle the tranny feels more responsive and heavier, but other times it feels light and not as responsive.

Lastly, I'm not sure if this is normal but when I slow down before I make a turn then press on the gas (semi moderately) it does this slight delay like its winding up and then it'll start going. When I first got the car back after the rebuild and I was in the same scenario the car would already be in a gear and wouldn't do the delay, I could get on the gas and it would go with no hesitation. Is this normal for the car?

Hopefully what I'm saying makes sense...

Thanks for the help once again!

 

The fluid level is fine, right?

I would definitely put it in 2nd manually while sitting at a stop, accelerate normally and see if it shudders. If it does it's 90% for sure the torque converter. If that's the case, swap the fluid with DW-1 or a red or black bottle of Lubegard.

The winding up feeling can be several things including a going bad sprag (one way roller) clutch.

 

So I tried out the 2nd gear in SS mode and I did not feel a shudder. Yes, the fluid level is good to go. I know they used the black bottle of lubeguard when they filled up the tranny.

I tried to gauge when the shudder occurs and I want to say its after? but it seems like it happens right when it shifts there will be a slight shudder then the rpms drop. It was hard for me to gauge when it actually occurred, I'll try again tomorrow.

Idk how consistent the shifts are suppose to be but mine do not feel consistent at all. Sometimes the shifts are very quick, other times it feels like the tranny holds on to the shift (makes you lean forward a bit). Could this relate back to the pressure issue you mentioned?

Going back to the winding issue, today I was going about 40 mph and I hit the gas you could feel the front of the car tuck down while the engine was winding up then it finally took off. I know I read something about the computer regulating this but I've never felt delays like this in any other car. If I was trying to make a quick pass or switch lanes I'm pretty sure this delay could cause an accident.

 

I hate to say it but it probably will need to come apart again.

If it's actually pushing you forward a little and not just "not accelerating" you have a bind where two sets of gears are being applied at the same time.

An auto does not "shift". To change gears in an auto you have a clutch pack for each gear.

When you go from 1st to 2nd, the 1st gear clutches release and the 2nd gear clutches apply.

If the 1st gear clutches release before the 2nd gear clutches apply you get a flare.

If the 2nd gear clutches apply before the 1st gear fully releases you get a bind where the two fight each other and it will throw you forward a little.

Shift timing is just about the most important in an auto for longevity. I believe you noticed problems shortly after going with the Racing or D4 fluid before the rebuild. This is the one case where those fluids will cause more wear. If you have two sets of clutches fighting each other, one has to lose and slip and it wears. Using the fluid with less FM can cause more wear under these conditions.

Can you try the 4-2 automatic full throttle downshift? That's the one that usually has the biggest problems. See if it throws you forward a little.

Even if it's downshifting very quickly before the engine has a chance to wind up, something is off.

If it pushes you forward on an upshift you have a problem beyond a doubt.

This is a case where the DW-1 is probably better.

 

It sounds like this tranny needs to be junked. I'm going to ask my friend if I can drive his TL and see how it feels.

The tranny was doing the thing were it felt like it was holding a shift longer or the bind you mentioned before it failed the first time. It has definitely done the 4-2 downshift maybe twice, I usually will put it in SS when I think it's going to occur.

So what do you think is the possible fix to these problems? I feel that if I were to bring this stuff up to the shop and they drive the car they're going to say nothing is wrong with it. I know I read something about updating some kind of computer that relates to the tranny.

I have a feeling that if I were to pull the drain plug there would be metal shavings on it more than there should be

 

Just a quick update, it occurs after the shift, once the shift occurs the shudder then follows. I got a pretty noticeable one this morning, its odd that it comes and goes...

 

Have you checked the axle? Heard that was a common problem around 30 to 40 mph

 

So you're saying that the shudder could possibly be occurring because of a bad axle? I haven't heard anyone say that before. It's usually a vibration related issue for people to label the axle as the problem.

So I just got back from driving my friends 06 TL with 90K on it and his shifts are very smooth, you can barely even feel the car shift at all. Even under light throttle shifting from 1st to 2nd I really didn't feel the slight jerk forward as I do with my car. So when comparing the way his shifts to mine there are very obvious differences. Correct me if I'm wrong but when someone rebuilds your tranny shouldn't it feel close to new? Once I find the time its going back to the shop.

As far as steering and suspension I didn't even know a TL's steering and suspension could feel that tight. Barely felt anything going over bumps, and virtually no play in the steering wheel at all. The difference between those cars are night and day...

 

if the axle is no longer in balance it can cause what feels like a shudder as it hits it's resonate frequency... more often than not though, it's the trans

this guy is pretty good with Honda trans

 

Hopefully next weekend I'm going to take it back, I really want to get the rear motor mount replaced to see if that helps at all. I have a feeling its no good anymore. If I'm getting on the gas once the car shifts you get a pretty noticeable bang which I'm sure isn't normal.

But I'm sure something needs to be done with the tranny again. Hopefully it gets fixed this time around...

 

Just wanted to update the thread quickly I haven't been on for awhile. I took the car back to the place that rebuilt it because of the shudder that occurs when shifting from 1st to 2nd among other things that I feel are wrong.

So long story short they drove the car around while they connected this system to the car to get data about the shifting and what not... Seems like all they are concerned with is if the car throws any codes, which I kept telling them it never threw a code when it failed. I rode with the guy in the car and made him feel the shudder I was talking about and he didn't say anything about it even though I felt the shudder sitting in the passenger side. There SOLUTION to the problem (that they believe isn't there) was to put more friction modifiers in which is not helping because the shudder and other issues are getting worse.

Some other issues are awkward timing shifts and what feels like binding from what IHC was saying earlier. I'm not sure what to do at this point besides let the tranny fail again and have them rebuild it again. This tranny might last another 1000-1500 miles.

I really have no clue as to what the fix could be? Could it be the computer in the car that tells the car to shift? I'm at a lost right now...

I know it's not suppose to shift like this because I drove my friends TL and it was smooth as butter when it shifted...

 

I will update this thread once I get my front and rear motor mounts done and see if that was causing the shudder issue. They should be installed by the end of this week.

 

All these issues are nearly exactly what I am experiencing with my accord. Had my transmission rebuilt and still does the same thing. I am thinking it has to be a simple sensor or line pressure. When I raised the pressure, it helped but it also shifted super hard. Do you notice any of your issues being worst when the A/C is on or when it is warmer than normal outside?

 

Everytime this thread gets bumped I'm afraid to read it because of the impending failure. Normally I would say screw it and go with at least 50% Type F and 50% DexIII but due to the potential binding, the shudder would probably go away but the binding could get worse.

You can always do a single drain and fill with straight type F and see what gets better and what gets worse. If done on a weekend you would have time to swap back if the binding gets worse.

That's just a bandaid unfortunately since it clearly doesn't work right. Honestly, if it is under warranty and if they refuse to help you, I would make sure it doesnt last another 100 miles. PM me if you choose to take that route and I can help you out.

If the shop was smart, they would begin looking into the electronics, it would save all of you some headaches down the road. Sometimes the case itself or the valvebody can have cross leaks. This is exactly why a good shop does not replace just the worn parts. You might have had burned 3rd gear clutches while the rest looked good and I've seem it first hand many times when I would get another shops comebacks, the bad clutches were replaced but the trans weren't actually rebuilt and of course the same failure occurred again. There are dynamic sealing rings on various shafts, lots of rubber seals that have to withstand several hundred psi of hydraulic pressure, stuck valves or broken springs in the valvebody, cross leaks, etc. I've gotten transmissions that were supposedly rebuilt that when taken apart were never rebuilt, just the bare minimum parts replaced while I go in and find an old hardened rubber seal that's bleeding off pressure causing slip and shudder and it usually takes many years and miles before they harden so it's obvious they were never replaced.

I don't mean to go off on a rant but the fact that your car is doing the exact same thing and they're no doing much about it tells me they probably just replaced whatever failed and that's it, no matter what they told you.

Going back over it, I see that the shudder is after the shift (I probably should have re-read the thread first) so it's likely the torque converter. I remember there being a solenoid that goes bad that affects the lockup and leads to slippage and then overheating. That might be one of the linear solenoids they said they replaced. I would at least start there.

I wonder if the solenoid responsible for TCC lockup is external and can be unplugged for testing and importantly if it can be unplugged can it be done without affecting anything else. If you're able to unplug it for testing and the shudder goes away you've found what's doing it.

I can't believe I forgot his username but there's one member on here that's very familiar with it.

 

I plan on replacing #10 and #11 28400P6H013 x 2 and 28500P6H013 x 2

 

Who did the rebuild? Did they use the Honda DW-1 trans fluid? My wifes 4cyl 04 accord did this to me when I put in Castrol Import fluid. Changed it back to DW-1 and it never happened again. Maybe worth a shot if they didnt use the DW-1.

 

Fluid would not make a difference in this case. I have the same issue and I can say that redline d4 helps way more that dw-1. But the issue still exist.