Replaced clutch. 10 days later, can't shift into gear?!

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Old 04-08-2015, 06:43 PM
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Question Replaced clutch. 10 days later, can't shift into gear?!

Anyone know what might have caused this? Facts of situation:

2004 TL, 6MT. Clutch was nearing the end and was replaced on March 26 after 113,777 miles (original clutch, lots of city driving). Car was ready the morning of March 27 and I picked it up. Car ran just fine through and including April 6. Bit of an adjustment to the actuation point being much closer to the floor, of course, but that's normal. I drove the car probably about 200 miles in that amount of time, all local-area driving mixed between the streets, the back roads, and the Interstate.

Morning of April 7 (yesterday), I was starting a new job (perfect timing as it will help PAY for the clutch). Car resisted shifting into reverse and then first gear in the morning, but it went in with a little effort and then shifted fine once I was moving. Drove to the subway stop, parked, rode the train to work, didn't think about it. I put it in first and set the handbrake.

Rode the subway back last night and the car seriously resisted going into reverse to get out of the space (pulling forward was not an option). But I got into first gear and then it again shifted fine. Drove home and parked in the garage, again in first gear with the handbrake set.

Next day (today, April 8), my wife and I were going to ride together to the subway. We got in the car in the garage, I shifted to neutral and then started the car, and I could not get it to go into any gear. At all. As I was messing with it, it rolled out slowly to the driveway. Since I just started this job I wasn't going to screw around, so I left it in neutral, set the handbrake, and we took my wife's car to the subway.

Came home tonight and I decided to try again. Before turning on the car I tried stepping on the clutch and shifting. Shifter moved perfectly, no issues. So I decided to put the car back in the garage. Turned on the car, tried to shift to first to drive forward.....no luck. Shifter would not go into gear. Turned the car back off, tried to shift to first.....shifter slid right in with no problem. So I turned the car back on with the shifter already in position and was able to drive it into the garage with no problem.

I have an appointment to take it back in on Saturday to have whatever is causing this investigated and fixed, presumably under the warranty from the prior repair. I expect to have to have the car towed because I can't very well drive any distance in first gear (assuming it won't shift into second, and assuming it would be a terrible idea to risk it balking when I'm stopped in traffic). They're providing a loaner car, so that's good.

Has anyone ever heard of this happening and does anyone know what the problem might be? (I will not be able to respond to replies in a prompt manner during the workday because (1) no Internet access via PC at the workplace and (2) very strict rules about phone/iPad usage due to confidentiality issues with the work I'm doing. But I will see any replies posted during the day when I get home in the evening!)

Thanks in advance.
Old 04-09-2015, 10:42 PM
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My guess would be the slave needs to be bled..maybe some air in the system?
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Old 04-10-2015, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MarcDavidoff
My guess would be the slave needs to be bled..maybe some air in the system?
Thanks. Last night when I did a Google search I found comments from Mazda RX-8 owners discussing a similar issue and they said the same thing. I'll probably mention that possibility to the service advisor tomorrow when I drop off the car. At least we have my wife's RSX to drive.....being late or missing work during the first week would have been a mega faux pas (plus this job is helping pay for the clutch!).

Thanks again.
Old 04-10-2015, 09:57 AM
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Good luck! Please keep this thread updated so that future folks will know the symptoms AND how to fix it. Thanks!
Old 04-10-2015, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by triax37
Good luck! Please keep this thread updated so that future folks will know the symptoms AND how to fix it. Thanks!
I'll definitely follow up once there's something to report....may be Monday night depending on when car is ready.
Old 04-10-2015, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 1995hoo
Anyone know what might have caused this? Facts of situation:

2004 TL, 6MT. Clutch was nearing the end and was replaced on March 26 after 113,777 miles (original clutch, lots of city driving). Car was ready the morning of March 27 and I picked it up. Car ran just fine through and including April 6. Bit of an adjustment to the actuation point being much closer to the floor, of course, but that's normal. I drove the car probably about 200 miles in that amount of time, all local-area driving mixed between the streets, the back roads, and the Interstate.

Morning of April 7 (yesterday), I was starting a new job (perfect timing as it will help PAY for the clutch). Car resisted shifting into reverse and then first gear in the morning, but it went in with a little effort and then shifted fine once I was moving. Drove to the subway stop, parked, rode the train to work, didn't think about it. I put it in first and set the handbrake.

Rode the subway back last night and the car seriously resisted going into reverse to get out of the space (pulling forward was not an option). But I got into first gear and then it again shifted fine. Drove home and parked in the garage, again in first gear with the handbrake set.

Next day (today, April 8), my wife and I were going to ride together to the subway. We got in the car in the garage, I shifted to neutral and then started the car, and I could not get it to go into any gear. At all. As I was messing with it, it rolled out slowly to the driveway. Since I just started this job I wasn't going to screw around, so I left it in neutral, set the handbrake, and we took my wife's car to the subway.

Came home tonight and I decided to try again. Before turning on the car I tried stepping on the clutch and shifting. Shifter moved perfectly, no issues. So I decided to put the car back in the garage. Turned on the car, tried to shift to first to drive forward.....no luck. Shifter would not go into gear. Turned the car back off, tried to shift to first.....shifter slid right in with no problem. So I turned the car back on with the shifter already in position and was able to drive it into the garage with no problem.

I have an appointment to take it back in on Saturday to have whatever is causing this investigated and fixed, presumably under the warranty from the prior repair. I expect to have to have the car towed because I can't very well drive any distance in first gear (assuming it won't shift into second, and assuming it would be a terrible idea to risk it balking when I'm stopped in traffic). They're providing a loaner car, so that's good.

Has anyone ever heard of this happening and does anyone know what the problem might be? (I will not be able to respond to replies in a prompt manner during the workday because (1) no Internet access via PC at the workplace and (2) very strict rules about phone/iPad usage due to confidentiality issues with the work I'm doing. But I will see any replies posted during the day when I get home in the evening!)

Thanks in advance.
Has the slave or master cylinder been replaced yet?
If it it hasn't it possible either of those could be your problem.
Also I've seen a few isolated issues where the check valve in the slave cylinder has gotten stuck because the fluid is gummed up, be sure to check your fluid and make sure its clean.

Do you have any other symptoms such as your clutch sticking when you press it down?
Old 04-10-2015, 06:14 PM
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No other symptoms. Car drove great with the new clutch from March 27 through and including this past Monday. It was only on Tuesday—by unfortunate coincidence the day I started the new job!—that a problem developed. Haven't tried to drive it since Wednesday. It's in the garage and I'll have it towed tomorrow unless when I go to move it outside in the morning I find it runs properly.
Old 04-11-2015, 09:16 AM
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I dunno. For some reason I have "linkage" on my mind. I may be way off though. Re-reading your posts I see "resisted going into reverse", "could not get it to go into any gear" but nothing related to clutch pedal feel or any grinding. That may all have been implied but I did see anything that was definitive in that area. The intermittent element of it doesn't seem like something that would be air in the system. There's no talk of pumping either that would point to a master cylinder. So I just feel like linkage.

So there you have it. I'm "all in" with linkage. Awaiting to hear your results.
Old 04-11-2015, 09:28 AM
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So it got weirder this morning. I was ultimately able to drive the car.

Got up early so as to be able to call a tow truck early. Went to back the car out of the garage and I shifted into reverse with it off, then started the car. Car immediately jolted like it might stall....and when I took my foot off the brake, it rolled like it was in gear even though my foot was on the clutch. Could not shift out of reverse, so I moved it into the driveway and then turned it off. Still couldn't get out of reverse with it off. At a loss for what to do (and this is long before I saw Adobeman's comment), I pumped the clutch a few times. Voila, it shifted into neutral and all six gears. So I tried starting it and it shifted fine. Drove it around the block and it ran fine.

So I drove it to take it back for repair, petrified all the way. Only one problem—as I exited I-395 (in a work zone, no shoulders) I couldn't downshift. Pumped the clutch and then I was able to shift.

So it's there but they aren't going to look at it until Monday. They want the same service advisor and technician available and neither is working today. I have a 2014 TL in the meantime. Since the service advisor wasn't there, I sent her a lengthy e-mail giving a detailed account of exactly what occurred and when. The service manager happened to be there at the time; he's my former service advisor (he's been promoted) and both he and two other advisors thought it sounds like a cylinder issue, but I guess we'll see. That makes some sense—when my brakes failed on a prior car due to the master cylinder needing replacement, pumping the brake pedal usually enabled me to stop.
Old 04-11-2015, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by 1995hoo
... I pumped the clutch a few times. Voila, it shifted into neutral and all six gears. So I tried starting it and it shifted fine. Drove it around the block and it ran fine.
Can I pull back my linkage wager
Thinking master cyl now.
Old 04-13-2015, 07:25 PM
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No real update today. I sent the service advisor the following e-mail on Saturday morning to explain the problem:

I write to give you a fuller description of the issue that brings my 2004 TL back to Radley than could easily be written down on the form the service advisors fill in. You may recall I brought this car (black 2004 TL, Virginia license plate [REDACTED], six-speed manual) into Radley on March 26 to replace the clutch and power steering rack. I picked up the car on March 27 and it ran just fine through and including this past Monday, April 6.

Unfortunately, on April 7 I began experiencing difficulty shifting. I started a new job that very day, so it was about the worst possible time for there to be a problem. In the morning as I was leaving to drive to the Metro, I had some trouble shifting into reverse when pulling out of my garage. The gearshift felt like it didn't want to go into reverse and it felt like I might break something if I forced it. Eventually it went into gear, though, and I drove to the Springfield Metro (maybe 2 to 2.5 miles) with no issues.

That night when I got back to the Metro garage, the same problem happened: The gearshift didn't want to go into reverse so I could leave the parking space, then it didn't want to go into first gear so I could drive away. Once I got moving, it worked fine and I got home with no further incident and parked in the garage.

The next morning, I started up the car and found I could not get it into reverse at all. Gearshift absolutely refused to go into ANY gear. The car rolled out of the garage into our driveway as I was trying to shift (probably due to the slight push generated by my trying to get it into reverse), so my wife and I left the car in the driveway with the handbrake on and the gearshift in neutral. We took her car that day and I called Radley for an appointment to bring the car in on Saturday. Spoke to Daniel and he told me you wouldn't be in until Monday, but with the new job I had to bring it Saturday in case I needed a tow.

Wednesday night when we got home I decided to try again. Turned on the car and it would not go into gear at all. So I turned it off, intending to leave it outside, when I had the idea of shifting into first with the car off. That worked with no problem at all. With the car turned off, I could shift into any gear position. But when I turned the car ON, I could not shift at all. So I shifted into first, then turned on the car, then pulled it into the garage and left it there until Saturday morning.

On Saturday morning (April 11), I went downstairs to try to pull the car out of the garage so I could call a tow truck. Shifted into reverse with the car off, then turned it on and it almost stalled. Then it rolled back in reverse with the clutch fully depressed! Somehow, the clutch was engaged even though I had my foot on the pedal. Backed out into the driveway and turned off the car. I then couldn't get it to shift OUT of reverse. That would obviously pose a serious problem for towing, so for a lack of any other idea I pumped the clutch in frustration. Suddenly I was able to shift. Turned the car on and I was able to shift, so I took a quick drive around the neighborhood. It was drivable, so I told my wife I was going to drive the car to Radley ASAP. Only had one problem en route: Exiting I-395 at Seminary through the work zone, I was unable to downshift. The shift went into neutral and then refused to go into gear. A pump of the clutch got it to shift and I got to Radley without further incident.

As you can understand, I can't drive a car that's giving me this sort of problem. I looked online for information. One commenter on the Acurazine forum suggested it's probably an issue with the clutch slave cylinder and suggested the technician probably did not bleed the clutch properly when installing it, such that there may be an air bubble somewhere. I found the same advice on various Mazda forums. I have no idea whether it's accurate, but the fact that I was able to shift when I pumped the pedal suggests it may have some validity because I remember back when I was in high school and the brake master cylinder on the car I had then was failing, pumping the brake pedal helped build up pressure.

I need to let you know about reaching me on Monday: The best number is my mobile, [REDACTED]. The new job I'm doing has some fairly strict confidentiality rules. I can have a mobile phone in the room with me, but I can't use it in there nor keep it on my desk. But I can wear it on a belt clip if I want (even if it looks dorkish), so I will do that and I will put the phone on vibrate. If you call me on it, I'll feel it vibrate and I'll take the opportunity for a break so I can go outside and call you back.

I hope you can find the problem and I presume it should be covered under warranty from the previous repair two weeks ago. Thanks in advance.

Here are the e-mails back from the service advisor (use of all-caps is hers.....I don't know why she writes this way, as it is hard to read).

First message from 9:02 this morning:

I AM SO SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE THIS IS CAUSING YOU AND I ASSURE YOU THAT WE WILL FIGURE IT OUT. PLEASE HANG ON TO THE LOANER FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES TO CORRECT THIS PROBLEM. I WILL CALL YOU AS SOON AS I HAVE AN IDEA OF WHAT IT IS AND HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE TO FIX. THANKS AGAIN AND YOU'LL BE HEARING FROM ME SOON.
Her definition of "soon" didn't match mine because I hadn't heard anything by 3:15. So I sent her an e-mail asking for an update and got this reply at 3:46:

UNFORTUNATELY WE HAVE YET TO DUPLICATE THE ISSUE YOU ARE EXPERIENCING, MY SHOP FOREMAN WOULD LIKE THE VEHICLE TO SIT OVERNIGHT SO WE CAN TRY IT AGAIN IN THE MORNING. WE CAN BLEED THE SYSTEM BUT WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THE SLAVE CYLINDER IS WORKING PROPERLY AND IS NOT GIVING YOU THIS INTERMITTENT ISSUE. I UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE TRAFFIC AND WANT TO MAKE THIS AS EASY AS POSSIBLE FOR YOU BUT ALSO WANT TO MAKE SURE THE VEHICLE IS FIXED RIGHT THIS TIME. IF WE CAN HAVE IT ANOTHER DAY TO TRY AND VERIFY THE PROBLEM THAT WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED AND IF IT IS READY FOR PICKUP TOMORROW YOU CAN ALWAYS PICK IT UP AT YOUR CONVENIENCE; MEANING YOU DON'T NECCESSARILY HAVE TO PICK IT UP TOMORROW IF IT IS INCONVENIENT. PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF THIS IS OKAY WITH YOU.
It's not really OK, but there wasn't much alternative, so the car is still there and I still have the loaner. If the car is not ready promptly tomorrow—they close at 7:00—it'll be Thursday before I retrieve it because we have Stanley Cup Playoff tickets Wednesday night!

Seems to me at this point if they can't reproduce the problem, maybe they should change the transmission fluid and bleed the clutch? Don't know what else to do, but I don't especially care that they can't reproduce the problem because I won't drive the car with the shifter locking up!
Old 04-14-2015, 06:50 PM
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Update from this afternoon. We're not going to get this done for now due to the price on top of the work I just had done—instead, I'll pick up the car Thursday and see how it goes. If I then have to bring it back in for further work, oh well, but I'd rather see if it's OK without spending the money first, given that they say they cannot reproduce the problem and they were bleeding the system.

I HAVE TALKED OVER WITH MY SENIOR TECHNICIAN AND HE IS CONCERNED ABOUT THE SLAVE CYLINDER AND THE MASTER CYLINDER BECAUSE IF THERE IS AN INTERMITTENT PROBLEM WITH EITHER OF THOSE COMPONENTS THEN IT COULD CAUSE A PRESSURE PROBLEM WITH THE CLUTCH ITSELF. RIGHT NOW WE DO NOT SEE ANY LEAKS FROM EITHER COMPONENTS BUT FROM PAST EXPERIENCE IT CAN CAUSE THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE. AFTER BLEEDING AND THE ADJUSTMENT NOTHING HAS CHANGED AND WE DID NOT SEE THAT IT MADE ANY DIFFERENCE TO THE WAY THE CLUTCH FEELS OR OPERATES. PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO DO SINCE WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO DUPLICATE THE PROBLEM. THE ESTIMATE TO REPLACE BOTH THE MASTER CYLINDER AND SLAVE CYLINDER IS $730.00 PARTS AND LABOR. IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CONTACT ME. I WANT TO GIVE YOU EVERY OPTION AND KNOW EXACTLY WHAT COULD POSSIBLY BE THE PROBLEM COMPONENTS. I DEFINATELY DON'T WANT YOU EXPERIENCING ANY OF THESE DRIVEABILITY ISSUES AGAIN.
Potential downside is that I will worry constantly for the first few weeks that the problem will recur. But I guess I'd rather worry about that than worry that I spent $730 unnecessarily, seeing as how they can't find a problem.

Last edited by 1995hoo; 04-14-2015 at 06:53 PM.
Old 04-14-2015, 07:21 PM
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They're only telling you that they couldn't duplicate the issue. It's quite possible a simple bleed fixed the issue and they aren't owning up to it. I wouldn't give them any $$$ yet. I think you have the right idea...
Old 04-16-2015, 07:41 PM
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Picked it up this afternoon and so far it's fine, but we only drove maybe 7 miles home (with a stop for dinner). I did note based on the odometer reading that they drove the car a good 40 miles. We plan to drive some 200 miles between now and Sunday night, so I'll see what happens and I'll follow up.

Thanks for the comments, it's reassuring to have a sense for being on the right track.
Old 04-20-2015, 03:05 AM
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I wonder if they bled the system with limited travel of the fork.


If they didn't limit travel on the fork it would be hell to get all the air out.
Old 04-20-2015, 07:32 PM
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Beats me. As noted earlier, I've driven about 200 miles since I picked it up (mostly highway driving this weekend, but with about 15 miles on gravel roads in the mountains) and it's been fine. Hope it stays that way!
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