eaf

Who the hell came up with this atrocious replacement for proper gaskets? It's a problem after problem. First it takes quite a bit of pounding on the pan or pump to unstuck them because even if that stupid hondabond failed in a few places, it's still holding up everywhere else just fine. Then comes the long and painful scraping of the old silicon. Then the entire thing has to be cleaned of oil and dried so that the new silicon could be applied, and just try cleaning and drying the bottom of the engine when it's constantly dripping from all orifices. And when you think with some relief that the most difficult part is over, and so you can finally start putting things back together again, here comes the pain of squeezing the damn silicon from the tube on the mating surfaces, maneuvering the pan in place while trying not to contaminate the surfaces or touch the bottom of the oil pickup, and tightening the bolts as fast as possible because they allow only 4 minutes from the moment when you started putting silicon on the surfaces. And these standard tubes are SO hard to squeeze with hands.

Did Honda invent a contraption yet like a caulk gun to make people's life just a little bit easier?

Why the hell is there no proper gasket, at least on the oil pan, so that I could take my damn time putting it back and tightening it carefully instead of worrying whether I put the silicon on the right sides of the bolts, whether the surfaces are still dry, whether I'm going to touch smth with the silicon when I push the pan around, and whether my time's up or not yet?! Argh.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

im totally not looking forward to replacing my pan.....

although, I picked up Honda Ultra Flange II, instead of Honda Bond

mzilvar

iTrader: (3)

lol .. it does suck, I had to redo the hondabond seal on my pan twice before I got the oil pan back on..

I thought about just getting some of that DIY make your own gasket rubber stuff and cutting a gasket to the shape of the oil pan, those bolts are not very sturdy at all though, over-torque them too much trying to get a seal and the heads will probably snap off

I'm pretty sure during assembly at their factories they probably have the liquid gasket in some type of caulk/gun dispenser and the engine is being put together out of the car so it'd be a whiz to put the stuff on and slap it together ... but engineer's don't always consider the maintenance aspect of things .. when that seal goes bad can the tech get to it and replace it? is it a nightmare to do so? oops...

dcmodels

Quote:

Originally Posted by eaf

Did Honda invent a contraption yet like a caulk gun to make people's life just a little bit easier?

Aftermarket devices have been around >20 years now. I noticed that my GM mechanic was using one when he *glued* my Chevy transfer case back against the transmission. And he used some sort of *official* GM goop to do so, similar to Honda-bond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eaf

Who the hell came up with this atrocious replacement for proper gaskets? ... Why the hell is there no proper gasket, at least on the oil pan, ...

Its easy to explain, but will not make you feel any better. All cars are specifically designed for easy *assembly*, and not for repair. This has (more or less) always been the case, but current vehicles exhibit this with a vengeance.

A modern auto can be assembled in about 10 hours – and that is not a misprint. Let me be clear. Assembly means put-together all the major components. So that means put the drive train into the body, etc. But it does not include the time to *build* the drive-train.

However, the same approach to *building* the drive-train is also used, as is used for complete vehicle assembly. So as many gaskets as possible are simply eliminated. This has been the case for 20+ years. Your vehicle is not unique. My 98 Chevy oil pan is also glued on, no gasket.

And, of course, since the engine is assembled *dry*, and sitting on a *bench* and not in your car, there is really no problem using Honda-bond.

And replacing the oil pan on your TL is *cake* compared to replacing it on my Chevy, which requires removing the front 4x4 axle and pumpkin, then the transfer case and transmission, etc.

As a hint of how far this has progressed, for the 1984 model year, I helped design and implement the GM assembly line equipment used to *insert* a new engine into a new front-drive Buick body. The body was on a chain drive assembly line, never stopping. The engine/ trans assembly arrived on separate line and was placed onto a battery powered and computer driven robot vehicle. The robo-car would auto-drive itself under the car body, which was overhead.

The engine/ trans was bolted into the car body in under 30 seconds by two line-workers. One worked above, and one below, the vehicle.

In a similar manner, the entire previously assembled brake system and drive train of suspension and tire/wheels, both front and rear, was bolted into the body at the *previous* station. Again, this was done in under 30 seconds.

The reason that current cars can be 100 times as complicated as 30 years ago, and cost about the same (inflation adjusted), is because the assembly hour-count keeps decreasing. And the car manufacturer could care less if you ever *fix* your car. Forcing you to buy another new one is their goal.

If you want to know where this is headed, when is the last time you saw a TV repair shop. Or perhaps, you are not old enough to have ever seen one.
---eof

dcmodels

Oh, and the main reason for no oil pan gasket, is because the oil pan is a structural supporting member of the lower engine-block-assembly. That does not work if a gasket is used. Honda-bond allows the engine-block and oil pan to essentially become *one* part. And that allows the entire assembly to be made lighter, which is always a goal for better gas efficiency.

DO not attempt to use a gasket on your oil pan. Guaranteed, something will break.

dcmodels

Current tech is that the *gaskets* are machine applied, for consistency, not manually applied.

eaf

How is the pan being a structural supporting member of the engine? It's just hanging on the bottom of it w/o giving much support, albeit yeah, it's also screwed into the transmission with those oversized bolts, perhaps that's what you've meant. But still, some Accords do have regular gaskets, at least this is what I've been reading on other forums.

Thanks for the Ultra Flange pointers. I see that it comes in a can, surely this would've been easier to use than Hondabond. Too bad I didn't research this ahead of time and just went by the manual that said "Hondabond". Btw, consider applying the silicon to the block rather than the pan. This way you don't have to worry about leaving some on the oil pickup tube while you're maneuvering the pan back into its place.

It's rather obvious that they don't install the pan at the factory the way we do. They have the engine bone dry, upside down and outside of the car. Even if I had the engine upside down and out, there wouldn't be much to complain about other than again cleaning that old silicon.

Dealers must love this though, IDK how the cars are assembled so quickly at the factory, that must be one engineering marvel, it took me 8 hours to get to the oil pump, and 8 hours the next day to put everything back together again. Let's say the dealer can do it in half of my time, it's still a lot compared to those 10 hours total time. And thanks for the heads up, I will steer clear of Chevy

Acurafan86

This post is hilarious because it is so true. Similar to the struggle of trying to put on parachute pants... The. Struggle. Is. Real.

flyromeo3

I've used RTV silicone ( the red gasket one ) for the oil pan on my s4 that has cracked multiple times. Its been holding up great for years.
maybe that will work on the TL vs hondabond?

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

RTV gray = hondabond

YeuEmMaiMai

in a nutshell they use RTV for assembly because it is MUCH FASTER to have the robots apply a bead of that vs a person installing a gasket.

Those of us old enough to remember cork gaskets know that the get saturated/brittle and leak much sooner than any RTV based stuff does. I remember replacing cork stuff well before 100K miles on a lot of motors and so far I have not had any RTV based stuff leak.

dcmodels

Its both, actually. Same as on my Chevy truck, where if the oil pan is not exactly aligned with the engine block, can damage the trans.

Here is a quote from Acura for the RDX, but it applies to all their current engines. Its not very specific, but you can look further online for a more technical explanation, or perhaps find one in Wiki...

The RDX utilizes a die-cast lightweight aluminum cylinder block that has cast-in iron cylinder liners with 86mm bores. The block is a 2-piece design that fully supports the five main bearings with a single cast-alloy bed-plate assembly to help maximize rigidity and minimize noise and vibration. For even greater rigidity, the oil pan is a stiff aluminum casting.

dcmodels

Said better than I managed. Some engine parts are also robo-assembled.

My Chevy truck oil pan leaked, with RTV "gasket", because the bolts loosened. In fact, one actually fell out. That is what heat-cycling of the engine, and no thread lock on the aluminum oil pan/ steel bolts, causes.

On my Acura RDX, I marked all oil pan bolts with red finger nail polish, so that every oil change, I can do a visual check for any bolts that are beginning to loosen.

YeuEmMaiMai

^It wasn't the RTV sealant's fault, it was improper assembly of said oil pan to engine (bolts worked loose for some reason)

dcmodels

Seriously? Bolts always work loose, eventually, esp when heat/cold cycling is involved. WHich is why I always mark all bolts I can reach, with nail polish, so its easy to check visually if they are beginning to loosen.

The FSM for the RDX specifically states that for the MID B service, which is to *check* various assemblies, that all bolts are to be checked for tightness. Specifically, the suspension bolts, strut/ shock bolts, and basically anything held by a bolt that would cause a wreck if the part fell off the car.

To expect that the engine bolts, and pan bolts, will never loosen, exhibits a lack of understanding of cars, IMO.

I wonder if the OP had simply tightened the TL pan bolts, if the pan would have stopped leaking, or slowed enough that it was not necessary to repair. My Chevy pan, and many other parts, have been leaking for 10 years. But since its never more than 1/4 qt, I just ignore it, since the cost of repair is so high. And as my mechanic points out, it keeps the bottom of the truck from rusting.

YeuEmMaiMai

yes you check bolts at the required time, if you have not done that, then you are the cause of the failure. This is one of the major reasons I let my dealer do the inspection.. they are already there changing the oil so they can check the bolts as part of the deal. my 02 CLS has a leak on the side of the engine so I will have them address it next time I drag it to the shop in the spring. it is 13 years old with 138K on the odo(from manufacturing date of 11-01) and currently in storage for the last 2 months and will be until the spring. In my experience I have never had a Honda engine leak until now so I would say that the RTV has worked as expected.

eaf

Yes, I tried tightening the pan bolts first, they were already tight, but even if they weren't there was still a leak on top of the oil pump, and that's caused by a rubber gasket, not by hondabond.

It's kind of naive to expect dealer to tighten up bolts as part of their "multipoint inspection" that comes with an oil change. Heck, they never cared to replace the two bolts that were supposed to hold the front of the exhaust, got stripped by a bodyshop 3 years ago, and were missing ever since. It's a rather obvious omission, right there by the oil plug, and yet not once was I told that they were missing. Instead I was routinely suggested to change wipers (despite them being new), or brake fluid (same stuff), or airfilters. They tend to suggest or do things by mileage, at least in my experience.

UTAH TSX

Ultra flange dries twice as fast as honda bond

dcmodels

Sadly, I must agree. I am not sure that the dealer would check bolt tightness, even if I paid for a "B" inspection service. Although, they might tell me about missing bolts, and suggest a paid repair.

YeuEmMaiMai

They have been servicing the car for 9 years and they always present an inspection list. You may think it's naive to expect them to inspect the area they are working on, but I doubt they would pass on a legitimate opportunity earn service.