Polixtroy1002

I am hoping someone out here might have some insight into how I should go about handling Acura. (I do have pictures but am a newb so I can't post them)

My 2005 M/T TL went to Acura, June 10, 2008 for a TSB recall on the 3rd gear syncro.http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/01/h...e-fix-is-free/

Prior to dropping off the car at Acura, I had purchased Privat Rennstadt 18x8.5 5-114.3 40BOM rims and 245/40ZR-18 97W Nitto Neo Gen tires from Tire Rack. These were purchased over the phone, confirming with the rep at tire rack that these would fit my car. Acura removed these during the recall and put them back on the car with no words to me saying that they were incorrect is size or would do anything bad to the car.

When I picked up the car there was an intermittent metal on metal cracking noise when I would go around corners at lower speeds (under 30 mph). I brought the vehicle back to Acura twice (while under factory warranty) saying that I was hearing a noise that was not there before they did the recall. Acura looked at the car on two separate occasions, even sending me out on a road test with a tech and told me there was nothing wrong and they could not hear the cracking noise.

This Monday I was getting off the highway, about to go through and EZ-Pass toll at 5pmh when CRACK! The ball bearings/ball joint on the left side of the car broke and sheered off the control arm. The car dropped to the ground instantly and the left front tire was sticking out of the car at a 60 degree angle.

Acura is saying they did not miss any problem with the car and did not miss assemble the car after the 3rd gear recall. They are blaming it on me for putting after market rims on the car stating that the rims are what caused this problem.

Please, any suggestions would be really appreciated. If this is my fault I will accept that but with everything else that happened I find it hard to believe that "rims" caused this whole mess.

Thanks guys

Tehvine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act

That will explain everything.

Basically, they cannot void your warranty on said work or the coverage for the car unless they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that those wheels caused the issue.

phee

iTrader: (5)

and u have acurazine on your side. get yourself a lwyer and enjoy the money that will roll in after you sue their asses

Polixtroy1002

Just uploaded some pictures in album "Ball Bearings broke but thats my fault according to Acura"

The Dougler

iTrader: (1)

Well your axle came apart, the question is whether it failed first or the lower ball joint did. In reality it doesn't matter, the tires did not cause this and you should be talking with corporate and a lawyer.

iTimmy

I'm really confused about what really happened because as your explaining it, it makes little sense. There is quite a bit of difference between a wheel bearing and a ball joint.

Which ever part it is, I don't think your going to have much to stand on, larger/heavier aftermarket wheels with larger tires do put added stress on all front end components. Unless you can prove that this problem was directly related to work they performed its probably not going to be covered by the manufacturers warranty due to the aftermarket wheels.

That does not mean all hope is lost, I don't know how the laws work in CT, however in NY there is a DMV court system which you can take shops to court in, no lawyers, just your facts vs. their facts and you have an unbiased third party(DMV) make a judgement, the risk here is you may not win, from my experience(I was a shop owner and have been in similar situations) you won't. It has been documented very accurately that larger wheels/tires do create added wear to all components and why should the manufacturer warranty these parts because you put something on your car. Magnuson-Moss does not cover stuff like this, much like if someone put sugar in your gas tank, the manufacturer wouldn't cover the engine because it was not a manufacturing error.

The problem with using the normal court system is that it is fairly expensive, you are beyond small claims court(again, at least in NY) and will require a lawyer which having been involved in non-automotive litigation I can assure you gets very expensive very quickly, and you will need a healthy retainer and keep your account settled monthly, I ran a $30k legal bill in a single month just over a year ago - this is not personal injury/accident law. Also keep in mind these large companies have corporate lawyers on the payroll and know the laws regarding these matters, no lawyer studies DMV law because there is no money in it.

iTimmy

I just found the pictures, your inner CV joint came apart, not your wheel bearing, the inner joint coming apart sheered off the lower ball joint, as long as there is no body damage, that isn't really a big deal to fix and if they did perform any work on the transmission you probably are "the victim" I misinterpreted your first post that the wheel bearing blew apart on you, which could be attributed to the wheels - since that's not the case my initial post does not apply to much.

If they hassle you look into the DMV court system, they will bitch slap the dealership for you.

Polixtroy1002

Thanks for the advice! I just got a call from Acura saying that "a ball joint sheered off (broke in half)." They said damages are estimated at $3,436 and obviously are not going to cover anything. I do have my lawyer involved but like you said it is probobly not worth using him since it would be cost prohibitive. Thanks again.

Bearcat94

Acura sells an 18" wheel, which *I think* is relatively heavy (>25 lbs ??) compared to many after market wheels. OE tire size on the 18's is 235/40.

The OP's 245/40 is only 1.2% larger diameter (0.3" larger in overall diameter) - that's less than the amount of diameter change as the OE tire wears from 11/32nd tread to 3/32nds tread.

I don't see After Market size and weights as a viable issue.

Now if the OP failed to use (or Acura failed to replace) hub centric rings, that'd be a whole other ballgame.

Zippee

I think it was the other way around; the lower ball joint sheared allowing the upright to move out which pulled the cv joint apart.

Remember that the cv joint does not locate the upright position. If the cv had failed first, the end of the axle would be free but would not put side load on the upright causing the ball joint to fail.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

Wait. The lower joint broke FIVE MONTHS after they worked on the car? Count your blessings their is no body damage and have the car repaired. If its still under warranty than have them fix it under warranty but I wouldnt start spending your "settlement" money...

RoadRunnerSTi

I think you are right.... but I haven't seen the car yet.



I know the OP personally, he is a friend of mine, and he is the least deserving of something like this. I know for a fact he did everything he could to verify these wheels would fit and work without any problems, and was very concerned about the noise from the get-go, and if Acura had said take those wheels off, he would have. I feel the fact of the matter is regardless of what caused the problem, Acura didn't source it for one reason or another despite multiple attempts to resolve it, and now have left a good customer out in the cold, and lost a future returning customer too, all over $1,500 in cost to them... a little sad if you ask me.

dechlin

iTrader: (1)

You can easily see that the ball joint breaking caused the knuckle to come out and pull the tri pod part of the axle out. What did the noise sound like that the car was making prior to the accident? If it was a clunking noise it could be something like when they pulled the subframe to remove the transmission, they didnt tighten the ball joint up upon reassembly.

Zippee

When you see the car can you ake a good close up of the broken stem on the ball joint? Might be able to tell if it failed all at once or if it had a crack that had been progressing.

I hate cars

Looking at where the ball joint broke at, I have to say it's probably not the installation. It looks like you just had a bad ball joint.

Let me get this straight, it did not make a noise before you took it in to the dealer, only after? I'm wondering if the ball joint was binding somehow. That would put stresses that could cause breakage.

For what it's worth, I recently ran into a curb, shoved the lower control arm into the car and broke the subframe but the lower balljoint held up. There's no way an aftermarket rim would cause it to break especially considering aftermarket is usually lighter than stock.

Regardless, you brought the problem to their attention and they did nothing. What if you were going 70mph down the freeway with cars all around when it broke. I would be pissed and at a minimum they should fix it for you.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

I do agree IHATE. They should fix as a goodwill gesture. I wouldnt go pointing fingers of blame though. It looks like it just went. If you were uable to dupicate the noise when you brought the car in I wouldnt have expected them to throw parts at the car either. This ball joint set up is new as of 04 and I have yet to see one go.

BoxOn20s

I agree that it possible that the ball joint cracked during a previous incident. The road before the toll didnt look that bad to have caused it to break.

Maxten145

Tire rack doesn't sell nitto tires or that brand of wheels... So why would the dealer believe anything else you tell them about your car?

Polixtroy1002

woops my bad, I had a bit on my mind that day. The tires and rims are from Discount Tire Direct.

I hate cars

As luck would have it, I had an identical failure tonight. Complete with the two bearings laying on the ground from the CV joint. Pictures to come tomorrow.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

You are having NOOOOOOO luck huh?

NCTL05

iTrader: (9)

I need a complete list of things that need to be replaced. What did the dealership say needed to be fixed or replaced to cost $3000? If it is just the cv axle I bet you could get the axle from advance auto parts for less than $200. Find a buddy with an impact wrench and help him replace it. Pay him with beer.

I know it doesn't help now but I would've put my stock wheels back on befofe it broke and gone to a different dealership to have it fixed.

ssmtl2nv

iTrader: (2)

absolutely correct, no proof, no worries....

I hate cars

I think it's getting better...

The car is at the dealership for the mechanical problems. I went and talked to the tech that's doing the job and I have a ton of faith in him. This guy knows the cars inside out, seems to love the cars, and is one of the most educated mechanics I've ever met.

The dealer has been instructed to replace not only what is damaged but any cosmetic damages like small scratches to the underbody.

The powersteering hose recall is getting done as is another new rack.

The tech showed me that the wrong nut was used on the balljoint. The correct one has a flange built in. The one they used is a smaller diameter than the hole in the control arm. He could not believe it took 6 days before the failure.

I'm going to get a set of floormats and the metal strips that run down the center console courtesy of the bodyshop.

Majofo

https://acurazine.com/forums/album.p...pictureid=4208

Whoa.. no no no.. I'm not sure what is required when they fix the tranny problem but if they had to drop your front suspension to make the job easier on them.. that's a no no!! This component failure is not your fault.. it's theirs..

We've loaded you with Ammo.. What I would do is say hey.. I placed a mark showing the initial position of my control arm.. when the car was returned, the marked position wasn't aligned so I know you dropped my fronts.. This is clearly not my fault.. Bring up the law showing they have burden of proof.. bring up the previous visits where you complained and they failed.. tell them that their failure could have resulted in your death!!

You seriously need to turn into an aXHole.. if you can't do it then recruit someone who will.. remember they are not your friend no matter how nicely they tell you to get lost.. I'd rip them a new one.. By the time you're done with them they shouldn't ever want to mess with you.. take nothing less than 100% fix (under warranty) and free fluid changes for the rest of your life.. they have no reason to blame you!! Call corporate.. and if they give you some B.S. "we'll cover half".. tell them to stick up their pipe and complain to Atty General's consumer protection agency and BBB.. take'em to court.. they'll settle.

(-man I'm fired up, when do we go and have a chat?-) lol..

TCM 01 CL-S

Holy crap, I'm glad you didn't get hurt. Hope everything gets settled correctly.

millarduck

I am on your side. You told them the car was not right after the fix, and they did not act. But, be careful with the warranty claim. I do not have it with me, but check the warranty book. I recall that Acura spells out that modifications and certain aftermarket parts (may spell out electronics, wheels, etc.) void the warranty. They could claim having non-stock accessories casued the failure. Think of if you added a hardwired radar detector and later have problems with the radio. Automakers decline electrical warranties if there has been any wires spliced and cut into. Just a word of caution, make sure there is no "exclusions" about modifications in the warranty book.

Otheriwse beat the crap out of them since you brought the problem to their attention after they f'd up the car. Good luck and keep us posted.

millarduck

OK- I found the warranty online (2008 model) should be the same. I assume you are under the warranty period. They can claim exclusions, but they would need to prove your wheels caused the failure

Here is what it says on coverage (page 10):

Front-Wheel-Drive System
Final drive housing and all internal
parts, driveshafts, constant velocity
joints, front hubs and bearings, seals,
and gaskets.

Here are some exlusions they can use (page 8):

The warranties in this booklet do not
cover:
• The failure of any part or
accessory due to:
– Abuse, misuse, accidental
damage, or acts of nature.
– Improper installation or
maintenance.
– The installation of any part that
is not equal to the original in
quality of materials or
workmanship.•

Any installed part or accessory
that fails because it was not
designed to fit that year and model
of Acura automobile.

Any failure caused by modifying
the vehicle, or by installing
accessories not authorized by
Acura.

blokhead

Any updates to this????

mcflyguy24

I hope you get this settled man, have you called your attny or the BBB?

vara411

Was driving my 2004 TL with my wife in Shreveport about 30mph and suddenly the car totally slammed down into the street, dragging my left wheel with me. It was a horrible experience but I'm thankful no one was hurt and that my wife had not been driving alone with our 4 month old daughter on the highway!


Here's the chronology of events leading up to this:

5/18/07: A-Spec suspension installed at Esserman Acura in Miami, FL

5/31/07: Engine hydrolocked during flood. Completely replaced w/ engine of equal mileage (21K miles) @ Esserman Acura in Miami, FL

6/08: Moved to Shreveport, LA

12/17/08: Car slightly pulling left so I took car to Bridgestone for an alignment. They did it, and warned me my CV joint was wearing down. I of course was skeptical.

12/23/08: Took car in to Orr Acura in Shreveport, LA for their opinion. They told me, in writing, that everything was fine. Here is exactly what paper says: "CUSTOMER STATES POSSIBLE SUSPENSION PROBLEM ON LEFT FRONT WHEEL. CHECK AND ADVISE. NO PROBLEM FOUND AT THIS TIME." They also did an alignment to A-spec specs at my request. That was at 46K miles.


And now this at 52K miles!!!!!!












I'm heading in to my dealership now, papers in hand. I'll start off being diplomatic with them but if they want to try and wash their hands clean of all this I'll become a major-league a@#hole. This could have been *A LOT* worse.

I hate cars

Wow. Glad you're ok.

I know what it's like. I had the exact same experience with mine. Car slammed to the ground, wheel looked exactly like yours and it was the same thing judging by your pictures, lower balljoint failure. Me and the girlfriend were in teh car at the time and I had just turned a corner so I was going 20mph but seconds before that I was doing 55mph in the middle of traffic. Car was immovable so I had to get police out there to divert traffic.

On mine they put the wrong nut on the lower balljoint with no flange so I was riding around as if there was no nut holding the lower control arm to the balljoint. It was just gravity holding it in. I can't call it a balljoint failure but the end result was the same.

Yours looks like it's missing the threaded section of the balljoint. My guess is when they did the engine swap they torqued the nut down with an impact gun. I would start there. The engine swap is the only service that you mentioned where they would take that nut off. It doesn't get removed doing the a-spec suspension or alignment.

Good luck with it. I had the shop that did it running through hoops to keep it off the record and I got all kinds of new stuff.

I hate cars

A couple more things that I learned the hard way...

Make sure they give you a NEW CV axle.

Make sure they replace the lower control arm and bushings even though they will say it's ok.

Thoroughly check out the lower control arm mounting points on the subframe. These get bent very easily and you may end up getting a new subframe. Do not accept welding.

Make sure they replace the steering rack. It IS damaged.

Unfortunately it took me 2 additional trips to get it done right.

If they end up dropping the subframe, now is the opportunity to replace the front swaybar bushings with some urethane bushings for no additional labor which is highly recommended. Not that I suggest it but if you've ever wanted to upgrade the front swaybar, now's the time since it requires dropping the subframe.

vara411

Wow iHate, thanks so much for the help... much appreciated - really.

The lower ball joint was actually sheared right off... I couldn't find the lower part of the nut to test your theory... it's strewn on the road somewhere.

My problem is (as I'm finding out)... unlike you, I have no way of proving beyond doubt that dropping in the new engine at 21K miles was responsible for this. I also don't see how I can blame my dealership for missing what I'm assuming was a defective or perhaps damaged (the roads here in Shreveport are awful) lower ball joint. It would be such a small thing to notice and could easily be missed, no?

I have an extended warranty (Master Tech). I'm hoping if I'm nice to my dealer he'll be more amenable to try and get them to cover the damages. The warranty people are sending an adjuster to check out the damage and determine what they'll cover... but I'm not optimistic.

I'm also insured with State Farm and have reported this as an accident to them. I don't know how I'm going to get out of paying a $500 deductible plus rental fees... looks like that's what's going to happen.

My questions are...
1) Is there any other way around this? Will being more belligerent with my dealer (and which dealer??) get more results here or just cause me more headache?

2) Assuming I end up going through my insurance, how would I go about making the special requests you recommended? I made note of them to the insurance agent on the phone, but she sort of blew me off. I want to get this done right.

All of this really ticks me off because I don't know who to point the finger at for all this... from where I'm standing, I feel I deserve an awesome loaner and fluid changes for life! ... But it doesn't look like that will be reality.

vara411

Well just as I expected the warranty company (Master Tech) will pay for the failed ball joint, but not the ensuing damages caused by the ball joint.

My insurance (State Farm) says they will cover the damage. I have a $500 deductible and 80% coverage on a rental car.

To say I'm upset doesn't quite cover it.

Majofo

you're gonna get banana'd .. I'm sure your warranty company will push a used ball joint to save ten bucks.. I think Acura should be covering the full repair.. but if all you have to pay is $500 to have all the associated components replaced then that's not terrible.. tell them from hub to the immediate shaft.. gut & replace.

vara411

An update...

I approached my dealer with my wife and baby daughter today. He was always nice to me but today was especially helpful. He directed me to Acura Client Services and gave me a loaner... a 2009 TL with Tech Package... toothy grille aside, I give it a big !

I then spoke with my State Farm insurance agents. They said as per their investigations that all their evidence pointed towards a manufacturing defect. My agent told me if this is the case, they may subrogate the charges of repair over to the manufacturer itself... here's hoping...

Acura Client Services were a little less than helpful, though. I could sense they were playing "defense" with me the whole way. Essentially they're going to send out yet another appraiser of their own to check out the damage for themselves before they agree to this. I must say it appalls me that a company would even THINK to not help me with this, when their product could have potentially killed everything I know and love one day on the interstate...........


... Still fightin' the good fight, I'll keep you guys updated.....

kvan2007

Vara, what ever happened with this?

Majofo

This thread is 2.5 years old.

jokerman826

and your point is, someone found it and wanted to know what happened with it since no final status was placed.