tizjiz

First time poster here, but surfed the forums a couple times recently. Very informative site!

Anyway, tonight while driving from work after about 45 minutes of driving I try to brake to a slow stop but it brakes hard suddenly after a second or two. I continue driving afterwards but after a couple more stoplights it happens again. I have a Acura TL automatic 2004 with 95000 miles on it. Any thoughts on what I should have checked out?

I hate cars

How long have you owned the car? It's probably just the grade logic doing it's thing. The car is supposed to downshift as you're stopping. It varies by how hard you're stopping an if it's on a decline. As the trans ages the downshifts become harsher. The 3rd and 4th gear pressure switches and a good fluid will cure it.

tizjiz

I've owned the car for about 3 years. It had like 34k miles on it when I got it. I will look into what you advised. Thanks for the swift response, I appreciate it.

tizjiz

When you say a good fluid do you mean getting a transmission Flush? or Drain and refill?

VQPower37

DO NOT FLUSH YOUR TRANSMISSION ... drain and refill with a fluid like redline d4 ... you have to do 3 quarts 3 times hence it becomes a 3x3

tizjiz

Roger that. I plan on taking it to the Acura dealership (I was recommended to do that by someone at the Firestone I go to) for the drain and refill, are their standard drain and refills 3x3 or would I have to question them on it?

tizjiz

Also just called the dealership and he doesn't know exactly what a 3x3 is, he says they hook it up to a BG product Machine for drain and refills.

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

^dealers "don't know" what the 3x3 drain and fill tech. is. the machine theyre talking about SHOULD NOT be used to swap out tranny fluid.

there are numerous threads on here about how to properly do a 3x3 drain and fill. just search at the top of the page.

if you can change your oil, you can change your atf. hth good luck

I hate cars

Its so disapointing there is so little consistancy between dealers.

A flush is bad. A 3x3 is done because only 3 quarts come out when you drain the pan and another 3-4 quarts are in the torque convertor. When you start it after each drain and fill the fluid mixes and you drain it again. Its not the most efficient way but its easy.

What I do now that I've installed a cooler is put one of the cooler lines in a 5 gallon bucket, start the engine let it dump into the bucket while I fill it through the dipstick. This way I get 100% new fluid with only 8 quarts of fluid used.

tizjiz

I really need to start doing my car work, never have even done a oil change before but I heard its easy. At least now I know a flush is bad, I've had one done before at 60k if I recall correctly. Suppose my best option is to call around some more and find someone who knows what a 3x3 drain and refill is, I've looked up the 3x3 on this site and seems they don't need any special equipment.

YeuEmMaiMai

check the condition of the trans. changes in shift quality are not good.

tizjiz

I found a friend who can help with the 3x3 drain and refill. What kind of Fluid should I use?

I hate cars

Redline D4 or Redline racing. Don't waste your money on factory Z1.

tizjiz

awesome, gonna go ahead and buy one of those tomorrow at the store. to everyone in this thread thanks for the excellent help.

KidChenz89

iTrader: (1)

so basicly if i want to switch out z1 to redline i should do 3x3? or should i drain and fill?

jda123

Any noise or harshness coming from your pedal when you brake? This situation is very common when pads are worn out and you are braking metal to metal.

When you look at your rotors through your wheels, are they smooth or are there ridges gauged into them?

tizjiz

Can I buy Redline D4 and Redline Racing fluids at most shops or is it something I need to buy off the internet?

I didn't hear any noise. I looked at my rotors edges if that was what I was supposed to look at are rough, definately not smooth but no big ridges.

EDIT: Is it okay to drive considering my cars symptoms?

tizjiz

Crap. Looks like this Redline D4 can only be bought online. It might take a couple days, is it okay for me to drive?

YeuEmMaiMai

yes u can drive it if the fluid is where it is supposed to be. if it is slipping and the fluid is good, it's done.

IMHO I would just use the honda stuff because there is no definitive proof (other than a bunch of internet dudes) that using redline or D4 will prevent your trans from grenading. (it may delay it a little that's about it) The 5AT is a flawed design and that is why it was replaced in 2007 with a new model.

I hate cars

The Redline fluid will make the clutches last longer period. I have a lifetime of experience and very little I've learned has come from the internet, internet dude.

The current 5at is not flawed. They're regularly going past 100,000 miles. Not sure what you consider flawed. Mine just turned 94,000 and it shifts better than new. Luckily I got the Z1 out of there very early in it's life and I credit this to it's awesome shifts at this mileage.

The closest thing to a flaw is the heavily friction modified factory Z1 fluid. It's common knowledge a heavily FM fluid produces more clutch slip and wear in any transmission on every shift.

We are not experiencing the "grenading" of the trans like you 2nd gens did. Sure, they wear out but that's where the good fluid with less FM helps greatly.

The info is out there posted by myself and others. The white papers are out there written by engineers on the effects of FM on trans life. You might want to read a few before trying to discredit those of us that have run and tested this stuff in real life.

Take a look at the turbo 5at TL making over 350lbs of torque holding up just fine at 4,000 miles with a non FM fluid. The last time someone did a turbo kit on the Z1 it lasted 2 days.

The only thing the newer 5ats need (besides the '04) to live a long healthy life is a good fluid and a 3rd and 4th gear swtich change every 60K.

YeuEmMaiMai

lol l like how you say "current" lol I guess in your haste to try and say redline and whatever other fluid you are saying is da bomb..... you overlooked what I said the previous 5at was flawed and that is the one that all the 1999-2006 guys have and that trans is definately a design failure. btw I have a brand new replacement trans (sept 2008 supposidly with all the fixes) in my car with 24K miles on it and the fluid is toast already. want to know why? (and no it's not because of honda's fluid) it's becase the clutch packs are failing due to LACK of lubrication. (there is a whole paper on why the 5at is flawed and why they cannot fix it with patches in the CL forum). All I do is drive my car back and forth to work and make 2 road trips to MI each year

If honda's fluid was so crappy as YOU claim to be for every day use then every single transmission that uses it would be dead in short order and no one with pre '98 hondas with the older units would have 500+K on their transmissions. even my 94 honda that I sold to my friend back in 2005 still running just fine on the ORIGINAL AUTOMATIC that came with the car and it had regular honda fluid changes up to the point I sold it and my friend is too cheap to change the fluid....car has over 200K on it now....still kicking and still shifting with nice firm hard as a rock shifts. even my frind's acient Acura Vigor with 300K on it still has the same original trans using nothing but honda fluids.

Even the 98-02 accord auto trans lives a long time now that honda has corrected the use of substandard parts and removed the internal filter (by relocating it to the cooler line)....

sure you like your aftermarket stuff and that's fine in a high performance application where the extra perforamnce is warranted.

It's not going to prevent his trans from croaking and if it's slipping and the fluid is fine, it's done.

OP, if you want to put that expensive fluid in there and the problems come back (which they will) go a head you can do so.

the one thing we can agree on is the pressure switches as those do seem to not last long at all....

the only way you can really fix the trans is to give it better lubrication for the clutch packs and make the shifts firmer by changing the ECM programming to make it happen.

btw 100K miles is nothing......even the transmission im my old crappy mercury sable lasted 200K plus...........the next one lasted 143K plus, my 82 chryler 5th avenue trans lasted 380K.....

I hate cars

Interesting assumptions here. You admit the fluid is toast after only 24K miles but you state as fact that it's due to clutch pack failure due to insufficient lube. Until you open it up, you have no idea that the fluid is not the cause. I've had it sent off for analysis as have many others and the factory fluid is usually heavily oxidized by 20,000 miles. There are tons of UOAs on Amsoil which show the fluid to be very healthy past 60K. It's a pretty simple conclusion really.
Nope. Your logic is flawed. Add less clutch friction area and more power along with electronics designed for soft shifts and you increase the demands on the fluid.

You can't use the logic "it worked in this one so it has to work in that one". There were changes internally and especially with the electronics along with several power increases over the years. Do you think a 4 banger 2,900lb Civic is going to put the same stress on the trans and fluid?

I have 2 very real reasons why I KNOW the fluid is crappy.

One, it's loaded with FM. This is ALWAYS bad for longevity no matter what the fluid goes in.

Two, it uses a crappy base oil that oxidizes at the first hint of hard use as proven by UOAs.

Along with the UOA proven oxidation, there's the UOA proof that the good fluids don't oxidize in the same tranmission. So either Honda needed to step it up on the fluid quality or design a transmission that does not demand as much from the fluid.

I'm honestly not familiar with those. I fully admit there were several huge problems that a fluid would not correct in the earlier units.
This is a part you're not getting and I'm not trying to get in a fight or talk down here... A high performance application demands more on the fluid.... But don't think for a second that a crappy transmission design behind a 258-280hp V6 does not demand just as much if not more of the fluid.

If you could run an old school TH400 in the TL you would probably get a million miles with Z1 as the fluid. This trans has 6-7 times the friction area of most of the TL's clutch packs, firm positive shifts so it would demand practically nothing of the fluid. However, the TL's little weak trans behind the V6 demands a lot of the fluid.
Agreed. Once it slips once it's usually done. However, if you catch it very quickly you can sometimes limp it along for quite a while with a fluid that contains little to no FM.
I don't think his has slipped yet. He complains of hard downshifts (I'm assuming). I had the same issues to the point I rev matched anytime I downshifted manually. The fluid replacement made a difference and the switches made a HUGE difference. That was 20,000 miles ago and absolutely perfect up and downshifts.
I think these switches have caused more trans failures than we know about. Some guys got really lucky and had the death shudder cured by replacement switches. Of course some damage had been done.

You just said what I've been saying but you're going about it another way. We are getting firmer shifts by using a fluid with less FM to no FM. They are quite a bit quicker and firmer with these fluids. This is exactly the reason I dislike the Z1, it was designed for super long, soft shifts.

As for the lube, I know it was an issue for the second gear gears and hard parts. Clutches don't seem to have a problem with lube. I think what a lot of people thought was a lube problem was in fact the switches screwing it up.
100K is nothing, what do you expect out of these transmissions? I used to regularly see cars start coming in around 85-120,000 miles. I would love to see them last forever but you have to be realistic. If they all needed a rebuild at 100K I would not consider them to have a flaw. Of all the cars you mentioned, none were Acuras.

It was normal for the old transmissions to last longer. The lack of electronics was partially responsible. The lack of 5+ gears and the stress and heat that go along with it was also responsible. Of the cars you mentioned none were sporty and the Sable/Taurus had known problems which I experienced first hand so you should feel very lucky to get that many miles out of one.

What it comes down to is there are those of us trying to go down new roads and get these things to last. Me, Inaccurate, Bert just to name a few. So far great results using the racing non FM fluids. Inacc was the first to use the non FM fluid and I followed behind him. We can sit around and wait for the trans to go out or we can try and stop it. So far I would say we've done a very good job. My car is me putting my money where my mouth is. Not enough miles to say "I told you so" but I'm very confident I will be saying it one day. This is not the first time I've done this. I don't know what part of the country you are in but if you go to Acurafest you're more than welcome to drive my car to see how you like the shift quality at this mileage.

We've come a long way from watching as people dealt with harsh shifts and shudder and not being able to stop it and worrying about if Acura would cover some of the trans replacement costs.

There was a time not that long ago where everyone thought the trans would die a short death if you used anything but Z1. I proved it wrong by switching to Amsoil non approved ATD very early on in the car's life in '06 and Inaccurate took it a step farther with the non FM Redline Racing fluid which people said was crazy.

Now we know about the switches too.

With the 2nd gear lube issue history, the fluid and switches can make a huge difference.

tizjiz

So I went to the nearest transmission shop and the guy test drove it. The results weren't very good, he told me the transmission is dying. I'm still making payments and can't afford a new one, so I gotta look at my options. He told me its about $3000 dollars for everything. Also low and behold on my way from the Trans shop I got a total of 3 hard jerky stops while braking, I suppose it can only get worse from here with the current tranny.

I hate cars

Is it downshifting at too high of an rpm too?

You might as well do the switches and any fluid at this point. From what I can tell they usually don't replace the switches in an overhaul so you will need them regardless.

tizjiz

Yeah the downshifts today were after I hit 3rd gear, brake softly then I get the hard jerk as it downshifts. Afterwards when i try and hit the gas it takes a second for it to get going, like I'd give it gas hear the engine then after a moment it'd kick into gear. Also the mechanic said going from reverse to drive takes too long, I was told that was normal tho.

He asked me about merging into traffic when you have to hit the gas to speed up and I told him that sometimes I'd hit on the gas to go about 50-60 mph from 40mph and that it would rev a bit then shift into next gear and give jerk forward. He said that was bad too. Geez, wish I got into car mechanics back in high school.

I hate cars

Definately sounds like it's toast. It's your choice if you want to spend a few bucks to try and limp it around more.

You can go to the auto parts store and buy some cheap Type F fluid to try and extend the life a little. It will only cost about $30 to buy enough generic type F for a 3x3 fluid swap if you do it yourself.

I'm not sure it's worth it at this point to do switches but it won't hurt.

tizjiz

A friend of mine told me I could try and do a rebuild of the tranny, is this a viable option along with getting the replacement switches?

jda123

If rebuilding a tranny is something that you have never considered before today, then don't do it.

There is a lot to learn, and even more to mess up, if you haven't do it before.

01tl4tl

an 04 with 95 on it- I would go to the dealer service manager and ask if they can get you some goodwill assistance- as 04 carries gen2 trans problems
gen2 got a court ordered 7.9 years/ 109 kmiles warranty on the trans!!

search trans and goodwill for tips on how to approach the manager- plead your case and see what the acura regional rep will do
Mention brand loyalty, family owns 3 acuras, friends all drive acura, membership here,,

01tl4tl

these trans are not for the faint of heart on a rebuild

MANY shops that attempt it have to remove the trans from the car and try again 2 or 3 times before everything is finally right and it shifts smooth
After that it should be easy for the tech, but dont be a shops test subject

go see about the goodwill

note- newer models with different systems than ours do use a machine to change out the fluid--it saves the tech time and ensures flow out from the TQ
per a bulletin last year

YeuEmMaiMai

actually I do have an idea what is up cause I have access to a SOS lab.....and their conclusion was abnormal clutch pack wear due to the excessive amt of material in the fluid. The fluid also shows signs of being exposed to excessive temps.....

I expect the trans to last the life of the car...not that high of an expectation when you do normal maintainence......and the price of the car in question.... I follow routine maintainence and the trans should not be done with 24K on it.

If you had read the case study on the trans (posted in the CL forums), you would have known that one of the MAJOR contributing factors to the failure is during the 2-3 shift, the fluid temp exceeds 315F and no trans fluid will stand up to that for long.....not even your beloved AMISOL or D4 or Redline...it just delays the inevitable....

supposidly the mid 05 redesign was supposed to take care of some of these issues but I guess not since there are still tons of 2nd gen and 3rd gen owners complaining about their transmissions going tango uniform...even post 05 ones......

I just wandered over to the TSX forum and compared to the TL forum there is hardly any mention of premature trans failure.....

But I guess having a car go through 3 transmissons is normal for you, right?

I hate cars

I can shoot you down all day long.

You are not understanding the failure mode at all. Why do you think there was abnormal clutch pack wear in the first place? Why do you think there were excessive temps in the first place? The Z1 is loaded with FM. This is what starts the failure.
You have unrealistic expectations.
Actually, Redline will stand up to 315F and it will do it for a long time.

Again, the cause of the high temps is clutch slippage and the cause of the clutch slippage is the abnormally high amounts of FM in the Z1.
So because we have a few transmission failures now that these cars are passing 100K it means that the issues have not been taken care of? Again, unrealistic expectations.
Uh, 205hp 3,300lbs vs 258-280hp 3,500 lbs. I'm starting to think you don't get the relation of hp and weight on trans life and fluid requirements.
Not normal. You guys had trans issues coupled with one of the worse if not THE worst ATF out there. They worked hand in hand in destroying transmissions in short order. In your case a better fluid would only prolong the inevitable. In the 3rd gen's case a good fluid and switches are all that's needed for the trans to live a long life.


I think the 3rd and 4th gear switches were a larger cause of 2nd gen failures than you would like to admit. By the attitude you've displayed I can see why you guys have been at a standstill for trans fixes for a while. Don't worry, us 3rd gens have taken the reins and we've given you guys a good fluid and switches. I may come up with a way to give a higher line pressure rise electronically too.

YeuEmMaiMai

I'm just going to refer you to this thread because everything you just said is 100% totally off base.

https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-cl-transmission-recall-q-55/summary-very-long-whats-wrong-auto-tranny-440072/

I hate cars

From your own thread:

"Modification #1

A. Jan 25, 2002 for Countershaft; April 5, 2002 for Oil Guide Plate.
B. Tolerance on diameter of hole in oil supply area of the countershaft component was changed. Tolerance on outside diameter of oil supply area of the oil guide plate was changed.
C. To increase the supply volume of lubricating oil to third clutch on countershaft.
D. Counter shaft: 23220-P7W (Previous Part 23220-P7W-020)
Oil Guide Plate 23225-P7W-000 (Part Number correct?)
E. Not withdrawn from sales.
F. August 2002.
G. Interchangeable


"Lubrication oil" is what applies the clutchpacks. Sounds like a lack of apply pressure. I see nothing of the countershaft bearings mentioned.


Modification #2

A. May 3, 2002
B. Hydraulic pressure timing characteristics at shift were changed to reduce the thermal loading of the clutch.
C. To reduce heat generation in the third clutch during hydraulic pressure switching at shifts.
D. 37820-PJE-A62 (Previous Part: 37820-PJE-A61)
37820-PJE-L62 (Previous Part: 37820-PJE-L61)
37820-PGE-A58 (Previous Part: 37820-PGK-A57)
E. Not withdrawn from sales
F. June 2002 for 37820-PJE-A62/L62; May 2002 for 37820-PGE-A58
G. Interchangeable

Hmmm, this shift timing sounds an aweful lot like what the new switches correct.


Modification #3

A. Nov 25, 2002
B. Clutch plate surface roughness standard was changed for all plates. Surface roughness evaluation standard was added.
C. Reducing the surface roughness of the clutch plates reduces the clutch friction disks’ wear.
D. 22650-P7W-023 (Previous Part: 22650-P7W-013)
E. Not withdrawn from sales
F. Dec 2002
G. Interchangeable

Interesting but this is more of extra precaution than anything else. I truly believe the majority of the problem was in the switches. I've seen some pretty bad steels still grab ok.

"01/02m Acura 3.2TL/CL third clutch burned ATM failures

All of the cars had burned third gears. One car had a burnt Torque converter, another had a forth clutch with signs of slipping, and the “No third gear” complaint car has third, fourth, and fifth clutches burned (OUCH!). The mileage ranges from 13K to 38K (approx)."


Again interesting. 3rd burning up with 4th right behind. What did my trans builder say to replace??? The 3rd and 4th gear switches.

Analysis of Transmissions Called in from the Market

“When the returned transmissions were checked for dynamic lubrication, a case was found in which mileage was relatively short and lubrication rate was so high that burning SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN CAUSED. This result necessitated our conducting further analysis of causes.


Hmm. Even with the lube issue fixed they were still burning clutches.

It goes on and on and on. Better lube to 3rd, supposed apply piston flex corrected, clutch surface quality control fixed with a consistantly better surface on the clutches, even more lube to help reduce clutch pack heat build up from repeated shifting, I could go on and on and on.

What do all of these transmissions have in common from the early units to the ones with all the fixes that continued to fail? Z1 and electronics.


How many 3gs were recently on their way out and even shuddering that were saved with a fluid swap and switches?

Let's keep in mind one more time, the topic of this thread is the 3G TL, not 2G. We don't have 1/10th the issues you guys had. Going over that thread most people had failures in the 20-30K range. We are not seeing those problems.


Don't expect me to waste any more of my time breaking this down. It's obvious you're not interested in discussing potential fixes to help our transmissions live longer, you're interested in winning a discussion. Just don't go around telling 3G owners a better fluid won't help extend trans life.

Inaccurate

I agree totally.

The TL designers wanted to have the shifts to be imperceptible to the driver. They accomplished this goal by making the clutches slip like crazy during engagement. But, this comes at the expense of significant clutch wear.


This weekend I did another ATF drain. This was the first time that I had such a long time on the RedLine Racing ATF. Previously, I was eager to do as many drains as quickly as possible to get the RedLine Racing ATF in there.

The RedLine Racing ATF that I drained this weekend had 7100 miles on it. I was eager to see what the oem magnetic drain plug would look like. This was going to be the "acid test" of how well the RedLine Racing ATF was compared to other ATF.

After 7100 miles on RedLine Racing ATF, the plug had 75% less sludge on the drain plug than it did with just 3000 miles with Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF.

If we assume, which I do, that the superfine metallic stuff on the oem magnetic drain plug is from the composite metallic friction surfaces of the clutch packs, this significant drop in sludge indicates that the RedLine Racing ATF is halting the clutch pack wear by 87%.

Knowing what I know now after this weekend, I deeply regret not switching to RedLine Racing ATF years ago. If a new TL would start to use RedLine Racing ATF from day one, the clutch packs would still look new (thickness wise) well beyond 200,000 miles.

I hate cars

Thank you. This same thought has crossed my mind several times. I switched to Amsoil ATD at around 20,000 miles so I'm a step up from Z1 and a step down from the "Type F".

Your story reminds me of one I forgot about. I had some work done on the car which required draining and filling the trans. It had been on a diet of ATD for quite a while by that time. I got used to the magnet having 1/3 the "fuzz" it had with Z1. I left a gallon of the Amsoil in the car and instructed them to use only that to fill the car. Of course the gallon was still there when I got the car back. The original plan was to swap it out when I got the chance.

Shifts were immediately slower and softer but not too bad. Of course, it was only 50% Z1. After 4 months it developed a bump shift. I started to get worried. Shift quality was getting extremely sloppy. I remembered that half my fluid was Z1 so I quickly did a couple drain and fills with Amsoil. Shift quality returned to normal (better than stock). On the first drain, the magnet looked terrible. I think it was at it's limit of what it was able to hold. Second change looked better but still quite a bit of metal. I did not change the fluid again for nearly 30,000 miles until I did the D4 and again to do the "racing" fluid. Magnet looked fine with 30,000 miles on it. I only got to put about 4,000 on the D4 but when I pulled the plug there was no visible metal and when wiped with a paper towel just a barely noticable black streak came off. Amazing. I'm going to do one more drain and fill with the racing fluid and then it's going to be 50,000 (143,000 total) until I pull it again to see just how robust this stuff is.