Chad05TL

I just did the 6th or so 3Dr fluid change and while in my garage I started it up and I noticed that whirling noise. Never heard it before. So I put it in reverse and it took a long time to go in gear. And the whirling went away. I put it in drive and it took too long to go in drive but eventually it did. Then I put it in park and it had a quick grinding noise. Now I'm scared to drive it. Hope I Didn't mess it up. I used red line racing fluid. I ave not driven it anywhere Yet.

Chad05TL

Correction: It was not 3x3 It was only 3x1. Just 1 swap, for total of 3 quarts. But this is about the 6th time I did the "3 quart swap"..

I think my only hope is to leave it be, and mail order some Honda transmission fluid.. and hope it creates enough friction. I think the racing fluid reduces friction.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

When you were testing, changing gears, were the front wheels off the ground?

Chad05TL

no. It was on the ground. It is suppose to be in the air? Like driving it?

Chad05TL

Is DW-1 the new standard for 04-08 3.2 TL's? I think Z1 maybe disconntinued per another post on a-zine

I did not run the car longer than 10 minutes. I'm hoping I didnt botch it! I was considering trading it.. but kept telling myself NO.. haha

Chad05TL

btw, only 72k miles. So I'm hoping its not bad already. I wouldnt think its possible to mess up the tranny in 10 minutes of mostly idle and warm up.. And, it did go into gear, but it was really slow to go in. Then I put in it in park, and I got a little grind.. not good.

vietxquangstah

iTrader: (7)

The first to experience transmission grinding after a drain and fill.

OEM fluid contains friction modifiers which REDUCE friction. It is used to purposely cause the clutch packs to slightly slip for "smoother" shifting. That's what the general consumer wants in a car. A car that shifts smoothly and very soft and no feedback.

Type-F fluid contains no friction modifiers which in turn makes the transmission shifts feel more pronounced and firm because this fluid is not letting the clutch packs slip, engagement is more noticeable.

Chad05TL

OK I see, And I kinda knew that about types of fluid, so i don't know what I am thinking.. I always heard that new fluid makes the tranny slip more. No matter what kind. (I guess)

But also, I have an automatic transmission, so the grinding is not from shifting gears.. Just putting it in Park. And it never did that until just a minute ago.

Anyway, I put in Redline Racing fluid. So what kind if transmission fluid would you buy if I drained out what I have in there now? Or will another swap just make matters worse? Or should I jsut go drive it?

bauermd

iTrader: (1)

I have heard horror stories about changing transmission fluids with over 50-60k miles and the grind start to happen. I also have the auto and I have changed it every 10k miles with just 3quarts each time. Have you changed it before, or is this the first change for you? How did the fluid look? Did you notice any shavings in the filter(if you removed this)? Just trying to help a little!

Chad05TL

Thanks. There were no shavings on the bolt. It was clean. And I have done this about 6 times in the past 10k miles. I do it 3 quarts at a time.

This was just 3 quarts.. The subject says 3x3 but I goofed. It is only 3x1.

And actually, I don't really know for sure if anything is permanently bad. Because I didnt drive it. I'm sorta chicken to! haha


I'm just trying to figure out what i should do next. Swap out the fluid for Honda fluid or just go drive it and hope for the best... If I go drive it, I will wait until tomorrow. Dont wanna get stranded on Sunday

bauermd

iTrader: (1)

Good plan. When it comes to transmissions, I always have been told to go with OEM factory fluid. Might be on the expensive side but if the dealers are putting it in, must be worth it. I guess. Good luck and let us know what happens!

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Wheels need not be in air, but why I asked was if they were and you put it in Park before they stopped, you'd get the noise from the parking prawl.

Chad05TL

oh right.. like if I tried to put it in park while the wheels were turning.. No, I didn't do that. I might try to drive it tomorrow. Kinda scared to though. I guess only 1 way to find out if it is broken.. right?


I know 1 thing for sure, if it turns out to be ok, and it just needs to relearn, then this is the last time I change the tranny fluid before I trade it.

Chad05TL

The fluid could be a tad low, but its really hard to tell because fluid gets all up the side of the dipstick. I could add more fluid, but I just bought some real Honda fluid on ebay so, I might as well drain that RTF and hit it with some honda fluid. Will it work? I have no idea!! But if I fix it with different fluid, that's only a $60 fix, vs. a few thousand or so.

I just drove it and it is slipping. The hotter it got, it seems it slipped more. But even so, I find it hard to beleive permanent damage can be done by changing the fluid. Physical damage doesn't happen that fast. So, I will try the honda fluid. I got 6 quarts to walk it back toward the orginal honda mixture as opposed to being so heavy on the redline RTF.

Stay tuned! haha we'll see what happens..

flyromeo3

Drain, and refill with Dw1 -
Leave that redline stuff alone.

Chad05TL

Thanks for the reply. I have some being shipped now.

bp_spets

I've had to put in like 3.5-4 qts to actually have the fluid reach the top of the dipstick marker after its been warmed up. So get your fluid levels right too

Chad05TL

Ya I may not have enough in there. Gee. I will check it again when I get home tonight. Thanks..

bauermd

iTrader: (1)

Goodluck!

dcmodels

But what was the mileage at the *first* 3x1??

And after 6 changes (3x1) in 10K miles, you would have around 90% RL (racing type-F??), and there have been some people reporting problems with greater than 67% RL RACING (typeF) - there is a thread for you to read: THE OPTIMAL PERCENTAGE OF REDLINE RACING (or approximately that topic name) - search.

I hate cars

Another ignorant transmission thread with people giving advice that know nothing like the noobs dismissing anything but factory fluid without knowing the history of aftermarket fluids in these transmissions.

It's not the fluid, let's get that out of the way. The lower level of friction modifiers have not had a chance to come into play.

Are you checking the level with the engine running or with the engine off? Judging by how Chad is having a hard time seeing the level of the fluid I'm guessing he's checking it while running.

How is it that those condemning the fluid did not mention the level? If it's making a whirring noise and it grinds when going into park and it slips when you try to drive it, most likely it's very low on fluid or it has a bad axle or other hard part. Maybe the fluid made the axle break lol.

I've driven over 100,000 miles of my 125,000 on this stuff including track days and no issues yet somehow it makes a transmission go by just by shifting it into gear. Amazing.

Majofo

The FMs were too much for the axle to handle.

Chad05TL

When does transmission fluid start to circulate?

When the engine is running?
When the transmission is in drive or reverse only?
When the engine reaches a certain temperature?
Or only when the vehicle is moving?
Does reving the engine make it circulate more?
And how long does it take for the pan to get circulated?




.

I hate cars

Fluid starts to circulate as soon as the engine is started. The pump is driven by the torque converter so it's directly linked to the engine. Pressure is determined by torque demands so it usually follows throttle. Most pumps are variable volume and the ECU usually has some control over pressure and sometimes volume too.

There's main line pressure and circuit line pressure and different conditions cause or call for different pressure. Volume is usually such that it can build all the pressure it needs while bypassing as little as possible for better efficiency, so basically volume on demand.

Shifting gears just energizes or de-energizes hydraulic circuits to apply or release a clutch pack or band. No shifting takes place in an auto. All gears are constantly in mesh with one another. When an auto "shifts" one set of clutches is released while another set is applied.

Did you check the fluid level with the engine running or the engine off?

Chad05TL

ok, thanks for the reply.. How long does it take for the pan to get circuited at idle?

I checked the fluid 30 to 60 seconds after the engine was shut off. Then added about 3/4 of a quart and it went over the top dot so it was not too low.

A few days ago it would go into reverse or drive no matter how long I sat there. But per the owners manual, since my DW oil was not available I got dexron III compatible oil. And now it is going into Reverse and drive sitting in the garage, But it is still pretty slow. I have done 2 of the "3 quart swaps" over the past 2 days with dexron III, and its better but not at all where it should be. I still get a little teeth grinding when putting it into Park about every other time.

It seems to be better but was hoping for a better result after the 2nd swap with Dexron III. (cheap chaser) I may just have to wait until Friday when my Honda DW-1 arrives. But still that is only 6 quarts. Hopefully 2 swaps will be good enough for me to make it to a Honda dealer to get more fluid. And it still has a slight whirling noise but it has gone down with the dexron III and now the whirling goes away when in reverse or drive.

I hate cars

There's something else going on than the fluid. It's most likely a hard part failure. Try putting it into drive and with your foot on the brake, give it a little throttle. See if the speedo moves. Try pushing the car while it's in park.

Is there a chance you left anything in the fill hole? There's a rotating part that looks like it could be a sunshell right under the hole. It rotates in park and neutral but stops rotating when you put it into drive or reverse until the car starts moving.

What else did you do when changing the fluid? Switches? What did you take apart to get to the fill hole?

The grinding when putting it into park means something between the tire and the pawl is spinning. That includes axles. It's the same as putting it in park while the car is moving. That's why you should check if you can push the car with it in park and see if the speedometer moves with it in drive with the car stopped while giving it a little throttle.

Chad05TL

TOO MUCH Redline Racing fluid (RTF) = BAD!!!

Oh my gosh! I think I saved it!!! WOW.. What a trip!

No more Whirling noise and it is shifting much better ALAS!

If you ever encounter slippage after a fluid change, and your transmission was FINE before you touched the fluid, unless you used OEM stuff, then BE PATIENT while trying to CIRCULATE the New Fluid back into the system! You really need to drive it to get fluid to all parts of the tranny.

Quote from source (not sure if it applies to a TL)
When the engine is running and the transmission is in park, only a part of the fluid is circulated. A good deal of fluid simply flows from the pump back to the pan, through the pressure relief valve. Several components in the pressure circuit do not receive flow at all.

Remember I said I was hoping for a better result from the Dexron III? Well, I think I was not letting it circulate enough. You need to shift it from reverse to drive then go creeping around the block to get it to FULLY circulate.

I bought 6 quarts of DW-1 and I just did 1 3-quart swap and I am not out of the woods yet, but the teeth grinding went way down to just a KNOCK from reverse to park only. (no knocks going into reverse or drive). So, I gotta let it circulate more and then do another swap tomorrow. So happy!

I was being really easy on it at first, then when it shifted quickly into second.. and then into 3rd, I was like ok, lets get on it a bit.. And it let me know it wasn't quite over its illness yet, but I can finish it off tomorrow.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Glad it worked for you, but you're not the first with a trans problem with the Racing ATF.

Chad05TL

ya, I have not been reading much lately about latest encounters. I know 1 thing for sure.. My transmission fluid is getting clean clean clean!! haha

BC2G

QUESTION:

After you changed the fluid this recent time, shift it (at a stop) from park to reverse to neutral to drive to low and back up and down the range a few times?

Chad05TL

I dont understand your question.. But I did shift from park to reverse to neu to drive many times during this last go around. Hitting low or 1st gear doesn't cause the transmission to shift gears when you are not moving..

BC2G

my point is did you shift thru the gears after changing the fluid prior to driving the car

Majofo

... just out of curiousity, did you use racing or lightweight racing ATF?

I can guarantee one thing, if issues showed up with 3 qts of any ATF, there's already something going on. You might be able to push the clock back on the timer, but it's on it's way out.

I hate cars

An auto does not shift gears as I stated earlier in this thread. It consists of hydraulic circuits that energize or de-energize to engage or disengage frictions. No gears are shifted. By putting it in second while stopped, you're energizing the second gear circuit just as you would if the car were moving.

The racing fluids lack of FM does not come into play when the car is stopped. It's purely a hydraulic fluid at that point. Whatever problems you had were not related to the fluid unless you used all racing fluid and you live in a cold area which I've warned against many times. You either had it under filled of something else got screwed up and worked itself out over time. I have this strong feeling that we're not getting all of the story.

Your source is very wrong. The entire volume of the torque converter and pan circulate at a high rate even in park or neutral. It takes about 30-45 seconds to circulate all of the fluid in the transmission at idle in park. There's less than half a quart trapped in the hydraulic circuits.

Your transmission is on it's way out. If I remember right you've complained of issues in the past. You didn't answer how you were checking the fluid when the problem first started.

No fluid can cause a mechanical noise like you're describing unless it's run very low and you get air in the system and even then it quiets down very quickly once the fluid is topped off. The grinding when it's put into park is only a hard part failure, even a sprag clutch It's easy for people to blame what they don't understand and I'm talking about the hundreds of transmission fluid posts where people put racing fluid in a high mileage transmission that's already showing signs of pending failure and the fluid cured it for 10-20k miles but when it eventually goes out the fluid gets blamed. Keep in mind these things were dropping left and right on stock fluid yet somehow the fluid never got the blame. Once you put an aftermarket fluid in a trans with known reliability issues it becomes the fluids fault when it goes out.

Chad05TL

It was Redline Racing fluid. The jug is in the garage. And this was about the 6th or 7th flush. The subject is incorrect. But I did 3x3 in the beginning and slowly did a 3x1 swap over 10k miles (guessing at the mileage). And this was only 1 3-quart swap that was added to the Racing fluid that was already in there. So the concetration of racing fluid was high.

Chad05TL

Yes. But sitting in the garage doing that, was not enough to get the fluid circulated. At least, I got only minimal results from letting it idle in park and reverse and drive. I say that for 2 reasons. Because after idling for 45 minutes and dicking around with it, I (nervously) decided to drive it around the block since I was at least was able to get it to go into gear. Then it quickly began to shift better. And the other reason I say the fluid was not circulating "much" in the garage is because I did 2 swaps of fluid, 1 on monday evening and then 1 on tuesday evening, and both swaps, the oil was very very RED. Like it had not circulated. Now, could it be that my fluid is just super clean now because of all the swaps? Well, I can answer that like tomorrow after I do 1 more swap with DW-1. Since it is shifting better now, and I drove it, I know the fluid has now circulated. So,next time if it comes out Red, then yes I just have super clean fluid. But if it comes out dark.. That means the swaps I did with dexron on Monday and Tuesday did not get fully circulated!! See?

It would be nice if I have just really clean fluid, and its all red from so many swaps, but something tells me as red as it was on monday and tuesday, it simply wasn't getting circulated.

Majofo

Straight racing fluid has a very broad viscosity rating and nil on the FM. It's not going to lie to you regarding issues with your trans. I'd use DW1 or D4, and keep an eye for transmissions on the market.

Majofo

Dang IHC, you bought a new Giant Trance SX.. that's a serious trail bike. I rode a Giant Boulder for years, a good bike for commuting. Some sucka stole it.

Chad05TL

No I don't think I will. Thanks anyway.

Chad05TL

ADMIN you can close this thread if you want. issue solved. Thanks for the feedback Turbonut and others who identified Racing fluid as the likely problem and that others have had the issue too, like me.

I just got back from driving around, and no problems whatsoever. Its not even knocking when putting it into Park. And teeth stopped grinding as I past from drive through reverse into Park. And the whirling noise is totally gone! It is shifting perfectly, and it might even be better now! This car has not had new OEM fluid since it was Born! I think even the "double bump" is gone. I'll post about that later.


thanks!.