apnorm

iTrader: (3)

I was at a track day (New Hamshire Motor Speedway) last week. I went out for my last run when the engine started to lose power on the first lap. I was able to make it around the track and pit in but when I stopped, the engine stalled and I was never able to get it started back up.

Before I continue, let me just stay that I'm not mechnically inclined and don't know much about engines. So if i say something that doesn't make sense, just let me know.

About 6-7 months ago, my oil light comes on. I check the oil and it was almost empty. I had to put 4 quarts of oil in! I have a garage and there was no oil drops on the floor so I didn't pay much attention to it until it happened again. It probably happened 3 or 4 times in total. In between those times, I had mentioned it to the shop i bring my car to and they said to bring it in so they could take a look at it. Partly because of a busy schedule and partly because of stupidty and ignorance, I never got around to having them look at it.

Fast foward to this week. The shop calls me and gives me the bad news. They say that the oil is not staying in the engine. They said it could be a cracked piston, seals or something else but they wouldn't know unless they tore the engine down. They said my air filter was covered in oil. I think they said they found oil elsewhere as well but i can't recall. The shop recommended I get a remanufactured engine. They had called around but couldn't find one so he suggested a used engine which i agreed to. They had found one with about 50k miles for $1,200. He said it would be around 3-4k total depending on what he could salvage from my existing engine.

The car is my daily driver and occasional track day. I plan on buying a new car in May/June 2014 but will still keep the TL as a second car/track car.

I currently have motor mounts (60) but was thinking of getting stiffer ones (75). I also have Koni shocks and H&R springs that I never got around to installing that I will now install.

Any advice/suggestions on what else i should replace while I have the engine out.

I realize that it was my fault and stupidty/ignorace isn't really and excuse but I'd appreciate it if you could keep the flaming to a minimum. Having said that, any comments/suggestion/advice?

Project_CLean

iTrader: (2)

If you're replacing the motor, why not add some quality performance parts,especially if it will be your track car. Look for Swoosh's protein diet thread. Also, some members have purchased Bisimoto camshafts. Make sure to do a complete overhaul such as Belts,pulleys and whatnot.

pohljm

I would look for a re-manufactured one or rebuild yours. no telling the condition of the 50K miler.

erdoc48

Here's my flaming...never track a car if it's losing oil and you're not vigilant about checking the oil level. That said, and if you're going to get a new car in a year, I'd personally get the 50K mile engine for $1200 (will it be more than this with the installation?). I wasn't sure how the $3-4000 played into this (if that price was for the remanufactured engine). If you get a engine from a totaled car, it might be a good buy if it's not going to be your DD next year.

I guess the only other 'flaming' I would add is that you have a fairly modded car- who did all the work? What kind of track days are you doing (oval track, autocross?). Sometimes track days are bad on a general passenger car because of oil starvation in hard turns.

Watch your oil level on the next engine. Good luck!

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

with the labor charge of 3-4k, its not worth it.

:/

erdoc48

OK, I get it- $3-4K with the used engine or without? I'd go that way, otherwise, you're going to put a lot more into the car than it's worth. Remanufactured will be more money and in a car that's worth ~$11000 on the existing market, it'll likely be nearly 50% the value of the car

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^i believe the used engine is 1200. but the work to put the engine in would be an additional 3-4k....which makes it not worth it.

IF i read that right....

erdoc48

I think either way, the OP is stuck- get a used engine with installation and pay out a lot, or sell the car as a non runner, and really take a loss. Either way, it's going to be expensive. It might be a good shell for someone with a good running engine in a wrecked car.

Project_CLean

iTrader: (2)

where are you located?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

it doesnt have to be.
I understand the mechanic wants to get paid for the job, but an additional 3-4k sounds pricey!!

erdoc48

To the OP, I do really feel bad for you as you have had a very expensive lesson. For whatever car you have in the future, learn as much as you can about it, even if you don't do the maintenance work on it (meaning you have the dealer or local shop do the work). According to what you wrote, you were given several warnings about low oil level and not only didn't get it fixed, but you elected to track the car despite the oil loss. This unfortunately shows you how important an oil level check from time to time is.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

This is what I would do...

send a PM to Paul (NVA-AV6)....i think he charges around 4000-4200 for a 3.6L engine and does all the labor and gets you on the road...and he is located somewhere in NY/NJ

you are looking at a stroked 3.6L engine with ported and polished heads/cams/upgraded springs and retainers/labor....practically a brand new engine with a lot more power....

now if that is not in your budget, ask the shop you have been working with to do a compression test...i think the oil was leaking into one or more cylinders and that caused the engine to loose oil....

if the CR test comes back fine, then I have no idea whats going on since you said you didnt see any oil leaks in your drive way....

apnorm

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the responses. Yes, i learned a valuable lesson...the hard way.

The $3,000 - $4,000 quote included the used engine and other things like spark plugs, belt, etc. We were originally looking for a remanufactured one but couldn't find one. I asked him if anyone could rebuild mine but he said all the guys he knows around here (RI) only does domestic engines and doesn't have any experience with imports. He also said that it would be more expensive and that it would likely be more than 4k by the time i have everything installed. I was trying to keep it under 4k for everything.

I've been using him for a while now and trust him. I'm limited to changing my oil, swapping out brake pads and changing the brake fluid. He does everything else. He did warn me about used engines but said has bought used engines from this place in the past and has had good luck.

As for the compression test - if it does indicate that it's one of the cylinders, is there a way to fix it without buying a used engine?

erdoc48

Truthfully, it will still require a teardown to determine why that cyl. has low compression, so if the cost to teardown your existing engine plus repair is nearly what it costs to get a replacement, I'd just get the replacement. Also, if the cost of replacement vs. remaufactured is a difference of $1000, I'd get the remanufactured engine. It also would depend on how long you plan to keep the car- if keeping the car for say, another 100,000 miles, the extra money is worth it. If not, go the less expensive route.

The other way to view this is as follows:
-with a used engine, there's no guarantee, but you may (very likely) be fine, but with a remanufactured engine, you'd likely have a warranty against defects in the engine (or I would assume so), and pay the difference for the peace of mind with the warranty.

I hate cars

Whoa, let's back up and diagnose this thing instead of blowing a bunch of money.

Did it actually freeze up or did it slowly lose power until the engine stopped?

Compression check.... If the engine will turn over on the starter, do a compression check. If it has over 100psi it's capable of starting.

How much oil was in the air filter, the factory filters have a lot of oil in them. If it was indeed engine oil, there's a very good chance the engine is toast but a bad PCV can also cause this. Some Hondas are known to dump oil through the intake pipe during hard cornering.

I say your chances are 50/50. If your engine is toast due to lost oil pressure, you usually get a rod knock long before you hurt the cylinders enough to lose all compression. I didn't hear you mention anything about noise coming from the engine.

Did you check the oil level after it died?

After the fact but this is part of the reason I run an oil with lots of moly and ZDDP. Moving parts are coated with these metals and while any engine will quickly self destruct without oil pressure no matter what additives you use, these additives definitely help during a few seconds without oil pressure such as the first time your light came on.

Last, is this a manual transmission? You wouldn't believe the engines I've brought back from the dead that were seized up just to drive around temporarily until the owner could save up the money for a rebuild.

apnorm

iTrader: (3)

The engine didn't freeze up. It starting losing power and then the engine stalled when I stopped. About 5 hours had elapsed from the time it stalled to the time I towed it to the shop. Before I left the car at the shop, I tried to start it but it wouldn't start. This was Thursday night. They didn't get a chance to look at it until Monday and the car did start.


I have the air filter from the Supercharger. I don't know how much was in there but he said the filter was soaked.


I didn't hear any noise but when they were able to start the car, they said they could tell something was wrong from the noise the engine was making. He didn't go into details or described the noise to me.

I didn't check the oil level. I do use Redline which i believe has lots of moly...not familar with ZDDP.


I do have a manual. I did ask him about rebuilding the engine but he had said that all of the guys he knows that rebuild engines work on domestics and don't have experience on imports. Does that sound right or are the engines similar enough where if you rebuild one, you should be able to rebuild another?

apnorm

iTrader: (3)

At this point, i want to get the car back on the road as soon as possible with the least out of my pocket but also don't want to cheap out.

The reason I'm going with a used engine is because the shop couldn't find a remanufactured engine. They had initially tried to go the remanufactured route first but then looked at used engines when they came up empty. I'll see if i can do some research and find one and then i'll have to compare the cost difference and decide.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

now the car is supercharged!??!?!

wtf!?
lol

its very important to list all details from the beginning.

apnorm

iTrader: (3)

lol...my bad. It's in my sig. Didn't think to mention it.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

after your post saying it was supercharged, i tried looking at your sig.....
but missed it, SEVERAL times.
lol

i found the meth kit..

ohh its hidden. ct sc. oh there it is.
I'm gonna go ahead and say that most everyone missed it.

apnorm

iTrader: (3)

Ha! I was thinking the same. It's been a while and I didn't realize I just put CT SC. It's now spelled out.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

lol!
hopefully Ihatecars sees this and can help you further.

I hate cars

As soon as I saw the supercharger I figured the engine is toast. Did you monitor knock by any chance?

YeuEmMaiMai

that job shouldn't take more than a few hours....(like 8-10 tops)if the guy knows what the heck he is doing. Basic steps

first off pull fuel pump fuse and crank car over to releive fuel presusre

1. Hood off (mark bolt locations
2. drain cooling system
3. remove battery
4. remove airbox, battery tray
5. unplug all wiring harness, vaccum hoses, PS line, alt connector, and fuel rail from engine.
6. unbolt compressor
7. Support engine from above with cherry picker/hoist and transmission from under car
8. remove all mounts and bell housing bolts
9. remove engine out the top
10. install new timing belt, water pump, drive belts, accessories (headers/supercharger for example), Alt, PS Pump, and plugs into J/Y engine.
11 install into car and secure to transmission housing and mounts
12 reattach A/C compressor and install drive belts.
13 install starter and battery tray
14 reattach all vaccum lines, electrical connectors, and fuel rail to engine
15 install airbox.

also might be a good time to change that diff filter on the trans if you have it

If that guy charged you $120-150 an hour then at most labor should be around 1,200-1,500 plus used engine for 1200 = 2,400-2,700 rougly worst case.

EDIT: IF this dude does not know about imports, find a honda acura import shop....

apnorm

iTrader: (3)

No...didn't monitor knock.

How much should I expect for the gauge and set up?

apnorm

iTrader: (3)

He's thinking it should come around $3,500 for everthing. He's going to see what he can salvage from the old engine. Some of the things we're going to replace are the spark plugs, timing belt, air filter...can't recall what else.

pohljm

HAHAHA monitor knock on the supercharged engine...............the dude didnt even monitor the oil level.

and I would switch mechanics to someone that has import experience.

YeuEmMaiMai

That's still too high an engine swap for an experienced mechanic is about 6 hours plus 4 hours to do the telt and swap parts with the engine out of the car, a t-belt should take about 30-45 mins tops. I've seen a honda mechanic at the dealer do my old accord belt in less than 90 minutes with the engine IN the car... plugs can be done in about 15 and while you're at it adjust the valves. since you typically reuse valve coves and intakes, etc.. if he going to charge you that much, make him EARN it.