ericv501

Car overheats, water pump replaced then immediate cross country winter drive. Engine temp and cabin very cold entire time but engine runs fine. 2,000 miles and take the car into the dealer and they claim two blown head gaskets. BUT the car seems to be running fine – just a nuisance problem with the engine and cabin running cold.

Detailed story:
I drove from Chicago (home) to Los Angeles. After the first 30 miles the car started to overheat. I pulled into a service shop - they replaced the water pump and timing belt and I was on my way.

After a hundred miles I noticed that the engine temperature gauge was below cold. Also the cabin heat wasn't working – no warm air even though it was set to high. It’s January so it was anywhere from 25 to -10 degrees the whole trip. I called the shop that replaced the pump and the tech told me something along the lines of needing to bleed the system to fix this.
I was already too far beyond the shop, the car wasn’t overheating, the engine was running fine so I decided to just keep going. When I stopped (for gas or food, etc) and the engine was idling the car would warm up but not overheat and as soon as I got back on the road the engine would get cold.

I stopped in Omaha, and made several local trips. Slept and went straight from Omaha to Los Angeles the next day. This was 26 hours and just under 1,600 miles, and I never shut the car off. The car had the same low engine temp and no warm air problem (which sucked since its January) except when climbing up elevations around Denver. When the grade got steep the engine and cabin would warm up but the engine temp indicator never went more than halfway up and when I stopped climbing it got cold again.

It’s 50-60 in LA and when I got here the engine temperature went normal again (halfway between H and C). I made a couple of 10-20 mile city driving trips (driving aggressively and shutting the car off afterwards each time). No coolant was leaking and no overheating occurred at any time during these trips. I got back to the hotel and collapsed into bed before making a service appointment at an Acura dealer for the next day.

The next day I start the car, everything is fine but now the check engine light is on. I take the car to the dealer about a half hour away from my hotel and drop it off with them. The whole trip I figured this was some sensor malfunction or some weird thermostat issue. I’m not expecting something major here.

They call me back several hours later and tell me they want to replace both head gaskets, the radiator and hoses for about $4,000. The service advisor told me the leaking and performance problems (of which I noticed and reported none) were related to this and it was cause by an ‘overheating event’.
I pressed him for more information about how they came to this conclusion and what the specific DTC was that caused the check engine light to come on and the service adviser gets all cagy and tells me to come in and speak to the mechanic.

I’m meeting with the mechanic tomorrow and wanted to get some of your thoughts. It doesn’t make sense that I could drive 1,900 highway miles and 100 aggressive LA city miles with blown head gaskets and not encounter any overheating, smoking, or performance issues.

Jackass

Sounds more like a thermostat issue (stuck open) by your description. I have had a blown head gasket before in a prior car and it was quite obvious that is blown. Engine didn't idle or run right, exhaust had a sweet smell, and when I pulled the plugs and looked down into the cylinders it was all nice and shiny.

nfnsquared

Sounds like highway robbery to me... and does sound like a possible stuck thermostat (which may have been the original issue all along).

Call the service department and get the DTC code number. If it threw a code (which it should have if you got a MIL), then they should have it on record. There's absolutely no reason why they can't give it to you. It should be "Pxxxx", where xxxx are numbers.

Since the car overheated, it's possible the head gaskets were affected and/or the block was warped. However, it's hard to believe that you don't have any performance issues or loss of coolant or coolant in the oil or smoking out the tail pipe.

How many miles on the car when the water pump was replaced? When it overheated, how hot did it get and for how long? What year/model TL? How did the original shop arrive at the conclusion that the water pump was bad? Did they even test the thermostat?

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

I would have to agree. Sounds more like a thermostat.

I've had a blown head gasket once before and the car would not run right and I kept losing coolant.

UA6

Wow what a nightmare. Nothing like being on the road and having car issues.

nfnsquared

Will be very interested to learn what the DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Code) is/was. A P0116, P0125, or P0128 could all be caused by a bad thermostat...

GKinColo08TL

I don't believe the blown head gasket either...you would have oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil and the car would run hot, not cold. Now if it was blowing coolant that would explain why you weren't getting heat because the warm coolant wasn't getting to the heater core, but again the car would run hot. Also you would smell a coolant leak. You oil would be "milky" and there would be oil floating on top of the coolant in the resevoir. I have also had a blown head gasket...you get severe power drain due to lack of compression and shit is blowing everywhere. Has to be a thermostat. If it is a head gasket, get the mechanic to warm up the car and show you the leak(s).

nfnsquared

Yup, I seriously thinking the OP got screwed twice. First time by the original shop who may have misdiagnosed the overheat and now by the LA shop.

Of course, if the TB change was due, then he's not really out any $$$ for that unless they raped him on price, but they still should have tested the thermostat as part of the diagnosis...

roof2006

Why did the first shop change your timing belt to address an overheating issue? How did you drive your car for 26 straight hours without stopping?

I've had a bad head gasket before (on a VW vertical 6) where the only symptom was coolant loss, (no smoke, etc.), so it's definitely possible. My guess is that you damaged the engine by running it for 26 hours straight at the extra cold temperature, but definitely take it somewhere else to get a second opinion - and not a dealer.

Big repair jobs at dealers are a mistake if you're paying for them.

ericv501

Yesterday the dealer showed me the reasons they thought it was a blown head gasket.

To be fair, I brought the car into the dealer thinking this was a thermostat or sensor and flew off the handle when the head gasket problem was suggested. I didn't think that was within the realm of possibility and I didn't notice the symptoms.

The head gasket is definitely blown, but the car has handled this as well as it could have. There is no oil in the coolant so there is less damage there than is typical during a head gasket blowing.

The car is smoking from the exhaust very subtlety. It looks like the output you would expect in a cold climate - the smoke has the characteristic forest fire / blown head gasket smell.

There are stress cracks along the top of the radiator, and it is a lot more obvious that the car is running rough now.

So now I am in the position where I am shipping the car back from Los Angeles to Chicago and tackling the issue from there - but the dealer was right on this one. They have actually been very pleasant to work with and they have accommodated a lot for me. It's Center Acura in Sherman Oaks, CA.

NTB (National Tire and Battery) - the service shop that replaced the water pump and timing belt and charged me $705 for this essentially couldn't care less. They will not stand behind their work. The mechanic at the dealer told me that they either didn't do the water pump right, messed up the thermostat, or something else that prevented the flow of coolant through the car. That's why it was cold in the cabin, because nothing was circulating to the heater. He told me that most likely the coolant stopped flowing after they did the work and I drove the 1,900 miles on an essentially air cooled engine (since it was very cold during the trip that was possible).

So I am to assume that is the case and I did drive 1,900 miles on an air cooled engine that blew a head gasket at some point and there is no oil in the coolant meaning this is a mild case of a blown head gasket. This is pretty fantastical in terms of the stress this engine can deal with. Of course I am still looking at either a couple grand to fix this or a week and a few hundred bucks to fix this myself. Fixing it myself would be preferred but I'd be working on this in Chicago in January - cold and uncomfortable.

BTW - I forgot to ask them the DTC the car was putting out but I'll be heading over there later and will report back with the code.

ericv501

I will have the car back home in my garage next week. I'm going to start looking into replacing the head gaskets myself.

I'm not finding a whole lot of anything in the way of DIY here - can anyone point me in the right direction or is a blown head gasket on a 3rd gen TL just that rare?

nfnsquared

It's happened before, but fairly rare. IIRC, in the few posts about BHG they had a shop take care of it. I don't recall seeing a DIY here in the forums. There might be some elsewhere. There's a video on ericthecarguy.com that will cover getting the intake manifold and valve covers off (J-series valve adjustment video) and he may have others that might help.

Have you ever done this before? If not, I'd probably let a shop do it. At the very least, I'd probably fork over the $50 or so for a service manual...

Did the LA shop examine the heads and block so you know they are good before you start? If not, it could be a real can of worms for a DIY.

Good luck to you!!

ericv501

No, they didn't examine the heads or block. The mechanic said they were probably fine since there was no oil in the radiator/coolant, the water pump isn't leaking, and the spark plugs don't look bad.

Now that I'm thinking more and more about it - it could be that they misdiagnosed this as a blown head gasket. The only symptoms are a blown up radiator, smoking, burnt oil and rough idle. I was paying attention to the temp gage all the way to LA and it never overheated after visiting NTB - and I did drive at least a hundred miles in 50-70 degree weather. The dealer never let the engine warm up to the point of overheating either.

I'm going to replace the radiator and thermostat (flushing the coolant in the process), change the oil and see how it runs.

Perhaps NTB got some coolant in the oil when they replaced the water pump and that's what's happening – I’m a little out of my depth here when considering if this is possible.

ericv501

I have the service manual.
I did the water pump and timing belt myself and I overhauled the power steering pump.

I've never gone this far (BHG) with working on a car but I'm not opposed to taking my time and doing it right. I'm thankful I have a garage I can do this (and leave it there when I go to work) and a 20 year old Jeep I can use as a daily driver for the meantime.

nfnsquared

I'm a bit surprised that you didn't blow a hose before the radiator cracked. Was there any fluid loss?

Did NTB test the thermostat at all or replace it?

It'd be pretty hard to mess up a water pump install. And no, no chance of getting coolant into the oil during a water pump change.

I hate cars

One very simple test will put this to rest. If it runs, get it to a smog shop, have them put the sniffer in the radiator. If it has hydrocarbons it's a blown headgasket.

I've blown them where there was no water in the oil or vapor out the tailpipe. If it is losing water and it's through the tailpipe, whichever cylinder is blown will look brand new, the lack of carbon is a dead giveaway.

With that many miles on a blown gasket you're going to be lucky if the block and/or heads aren't fire cut. By chance has it been running on less than premium fuel?

I've blown them in such a way that if I'm easy on the throttle the car will hold water for days. If I'm hard on the throttle it would blow the cap off the radiator and empty the engine of all fluids in about 2 seconds.

Did they pressurize the cooling system to determine if the leak was external?

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

you seriously drove 1600 miles in 26 hours?! dang! why didnt you just take a plane? lol

one time I drove from San francisco to Portland, and back nonstop that was probably like 1300 miles and I was DEAD TIRED after that.....props to you...

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

wait a min! there's no way you could have "never shut the car off" because 1 tank of gas wont last you 1600 miles! unless you filled your tank with your engine on lol

ericv501

Yes I never shut the engine off when filling the tank. I work in IT so I'm used to having to be awake for long periods of time and be at 100%. I got to LA around 2PM and drove around with my friend (in the TL) and went out to dinner.

ericv501

There was no fluid loss at all any time between NTB and Los Angeles. I paid attention to the coolant level in the bottle and it didn’t lose anything.
They didn’t replace it, but I don’t know if they tested it.
I’ll try that when I get the car back – it’s getting put on the transport truck tomorrow so I’ll have it next week sometime.
Here in Chicago we have 93 and that’s what I have always put in it. Once I got past Iowa I couldn’t get anything higher than 91.
The mechanic revved the car hard and nothing happened in terms of coolant loss. Getting on the 101 the four or five timed I did I had to floor it and nothing seemed odd.

It's just so perplexing to me that the car can start, run, and drive (aggressively at times) while not losing coolant, overheating, or lose performance. It’s just the smoke and a rough idle after starting that goes away when the car revs.