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I replaced 3 quarts of transmission fluid at 65,000 miles. I bought the new fluid at an Acura dealer so i figured it was the correct type. That was several years ago. Now at 105,000 miles I wanted to go synthetic, redline was my choice. When ordering, i looked at a left over trans. fluid bottle from the previous change (ATF DW-1) so i ordered Redline D6.
Then reading a forum in here, i started to reallize my car actually took ATF Z1 and i switched out 3 quarts of the wrong fluid at 65,000 miles.
Any suggestions, should i replace the fluid with the correct synthetic Redline D4 which is compatible with ATF Z1, or since ive been driving with DW-1 for 40,000 miles should i use Redline D6? im thinking D4.
Redline D6 is absolutely, positively, NOT compatible with DW-1.
However, it is a suitable replacement for Honda DW-1. It says right on the product description on Redline's website.
horseshoez will state nothing else is compatible with DW-1, and he has good reasoning, I don't remember the exact wording, but it is in another thread.
However, if a product is listed as compatible with DW-1, then personally, I wouldn't worry about using it. The base oil in Redline is probably much better than the Honda fluid, but since it does not have the exact friction modifiers that the DW-1 fluid has, some would say it's not an exact replacement.
At the end of the day, read the labels and see how comfortable you feel about using fluids. Nothing is going to be exactly like the OEM fluid, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad thing.
However, it is a suitable replacement for Honda DW-1. It says right on the product description on Redline's website.
Untrue; their website has language which says something along the line of "recommended for" which is a far cry from "compatible with".
Originally Posted by vpasla1
horseshoez will state nothing else is compatible with DW-1, and he has good reasoning, I don't remember the exact wording, but it is in another thread.
Untrue, there are a number of compatible DW-1 ATFs available on the market and I've said as much on several occasions.
Originally Posted by vpasla1
However, if a product is listed as compatible with DW-1, then personally, I wouldn't worry about using it. The base oil in Redline is probably much better than the Honda fluid, but since it does not have the exact friction modifiers that the DW-1 fluid has, some would say it's not an exact replacement.
Precisely my point.
Originally Posted by vpasla1
At the end of the day, read the labels and see how comfortable you feel about using fluids. Nothing is going to be exactly like the OEM fluid, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad thing.
I would argue the exact opposite; of an ATF isn't 100% compatible with DW-1, then by definition it is a "bad thing".
I didn't mean to put words in your mouth Horseshoez, I was just going off what I remembered you had said in the past.
I don't want to turn this into a atf thread, we have lots of those, I just wanted to share a screenshot where Redline says D6 is a suitable replacement for DW-1.
However, it is a suitable replacement for Honda DW-1. It says right on the product description on Redline's website.
horseshoez will state nothing else is compatible with DW-1, and he has good reasoning, I don't remember the exact wording, but it is in another thread.
Originally Posted by horseshoez
Untrue; their website has language which says something along the line of "recommended for" which is a far cry from "compatible with".
Originally Posted by horseshoez
Redline D6 is absolutely, positively, NOT compatible with DW-1.
If one looks at the Red Line website,OEM Compatibility, it states that D6 IS compatible with DW-1, am I missing something?
If one looks at the Red Line website,OEM Compatibility, it states that D6 IS compatible with DW-1, am I missing something?
If you look at the Red Line website, it does NOT say it is compatible, it uses the same kind of slippery language used by Scamzoil, in this case it says, "suitable replacement for"; not even remotely the same thing as compatible.
The fact is, every manufacturer designs their transmissions from a software/firmware, mechanical, and clutch material perspective for a very specific Coefficient of Friction (CoF), and if you believe the Red Line ATF can some how magically morph itself to have the correct friction properties of all of the applications listed on their web site, then feel free to use it in your transmission. If not, then stick with any of the currently available flavors of DW-1.
If you look at the Red Line website, it does NOT say it is compatible, it uses the same kind of slippery language used by Scamzoil, in this case it says, "suitable replacement for"; not even remotely the same thing as compatible.
The fact is, every manufacturer designs their transmissions from a software/firmware, mechanical, and clutch material perspective for a very specific Coefficient of Friction (CoF), and if you believe the Red Line ATF can some how magically morph itself to have the correct friction properties of all of the applications listed on their web site, then feel free to use it in your transmission. If not, then stick with any of the currently available flavors of DW-1.
Maybe I can't read, but on the Red Line site under OEM COMPATIBLE DW-1 is listed.
I know exactly what the various fluids represent, but have used Valvoline ATF MaxLife in cars that required SPIII, MerconLV, Dexron, etc and have never encountered a problem,
and this is with probably over a million miles using the MaxLife.
Think we're making a big deal out of nothing, but would never hesitate to put the MaxLife in the '04 TL, what could it hurt as the transmissions are crap to begin with, who knows, might help.
Want to add, on our '04 TL, I did change the ATF , one drain/fill, maybe 10 years ago, but had the Z-1 on the shelf, so that's what I used.and haven't done it since, but the
car has very low miles.
As above, with the problematic transmission design, maybe the transmission would live a longer life if another fluid, other than OEM, were to be used.
Don't forget, many years ago, there was a group that mixed various transmission fluids and gave evidence of better transmission shifting/longevity.
You can spin it any way you want, neither MaxLife or D6 have the correct CoF in their formulations; the only way to get that is to buy one of the DW-1s currently available on the market.
You can spin it any way you want, neither MaxLife or D6 have the correct CoF in their formulations; the only way to get that is to buy one of the DW-1s currently available on the market.
I'll agree with that assessment, but then that would hold true for any transmission as only the factory OEM would be used,
but we do know that isn't correct, at least in my experience............................Do you know of anyone that used an aftermarket,
multi-vehicle ATF and had a trans problem that could be attributed to the fluid used?
I know many that had trans problems using the Z-1 and DW-1, now was that the trans fluid that caused the demise or just a
crappy transmission design...............I'd vote for the latter.
Similar to the Hyundai/Kia DGI engine seizures, not oil related, just a poor engine design.
I'm not quite sure what you're driving at; to be sure there are flawed designs, the early H5 transmissions are a prime example, but the fact remains, using an ATF which has a different CoF will result in the transmission operating in a different way than from which it was designed to operate. Use an ATF where the CoF is "not slippery enough" and the transmission shifts feel crisper, but that in turn transmits shock to the rest of the already fragile internals of many automatic transmissions, the H5 in particular. Use an ATF where the CoF is too slippery and the transmission shifts feel mushy; this in turn accelerates clutch wear and adds heat to an already stressed ATF cooling system.
The above said, if you have your transmission rebuilt/remanufactured using non-Honda components, and the maker of the remanufacturing kit says to use MaxLife or D6 or Newt urine, then following their recommendation instead of the OEM ATF is advisable.
On a side note amazon has bottles of newt urine I mean Honda dw-1 for sale. The only thing is how can one make sure the bottles they are receiving aren’t counterfeit? Is there a way to confirm?
I'm not sure if there is a tried and true method of detecting counterfeit ATF, regardless of brand; that said, my gut tells me there are a lot of other brands/ATF types which would be more profitable before a counterfeiter ever bothers with the Honda brand. Another point in favor of the Honda DW-1 on sale is there have been exactly zero reports of any counterfeit activity in that space.
That said, if I had a Honda with an automatic transmission, and if said transmission was due for an ATF service, I'd probably opt for the Idemitsu Type H Plus ATF; as I understand it, Idemitsu is Honda's OEM maker of DW-1, and it can be had for a very good price:
I'm not quite sure what you're driving at; to be sure there are flawed designs, the early H5 transmissions are a prime example, but the fact remains, using an ATF which has a different CoF will result in the transmission operating in a different way than from which it was designed to operate. Use an ATF where the CoF is "not slippery enough" and the transmission shifts feel crisper, but that in turn transmits shock to the rest of the already fragile internals of many automatic transmissions, the H5 in particular. Use an ATF where the CoF is too slippery and the transmission shifts feel mushy; this in turn accelerates clutch wear and adds heat to an already stressed ATF cooling system.
The above said, if you have your transmission rebuilt/remanufactured using non-Honda components, and the maker of the remanufacturing kit says to use MaxLife or D6 or Newt urine, then following their recommendation instead of the OEM ATF is advisable.
What I'm driving at is that I don't know of any trans that has died due to the transmission fluid used, as long as it was compatible to the OEM fluid.
I say this from years having the garage, not one trans died from wrong fluid, even when they used Newt urine, do you know of any, I asked that before?
Actually, some repair shops don't use the OEM fluid after a rebuild, and they may use Newt urine, but the rebuilt trans comes with a warranty.
Guess you've got a different outlook on improper oil to use in the TL, so I'm done. You know, you can lead a horse to water....................
You are certainly welcome to your opinion, but to answer your question, yes, I've seen many transmissions fail because of the incorrect ATF usage. The thing is, putting the incorrect ATF in doesn't make the transmission go Tango Uniform all at once, it takes many thousands of miles. Given very few of the cars I've owned have had automatic transmissions, I've only had to deal with one failure due to the incorrect ATF, so I've been lucky. In the instance where my transmission failed, I was working a very time consuming contract and didn't have time to do my own drain/refill at the prescribed 30,000 mile interval; instead, I took the car in to a shop local to my client's facility and had them do it. Within a day of having the transmission serviced I noticed a very subtle change in how the torque converter lockup engaged, and 9,000 miles later (literally to the mile), the transmission failed while I was coasting down a freeway ramp.
When I questioned the shop what ATF they used they pointed to the shelves where they keep their ATF supplies, and it was all of the MaxLife ilk (you know, one type fits many applications). In the end I had to pay $2,600 for a remanufactured transmission. A year later I took a contract with Mercedes-Benz North America in their shop in Montvale, NJ where they do their forensic analysis of unexpected failures, and that is when I did my immersion into automatic transmission design and the impact the ATF has on the proper functioning of the transmission.
So, is it possible any given universal ATF happens to be perfect for any given transmission? Yes. In my case, I'm not willing to bet on it for my vehicles; in your case, apparently you are.
I'm not sure if there is a tried and true method of detecting counterfeit ATF, regardless of brand; that said, my gut tells me there are a lot of other brands/ATF types which would be more profitable before a counterfeiter ever bothers with the Honda brand. Another point in favor of the Honda DW-1 on sale is there have been exactly zero reports of any counterfeit activity in that space.
That said, if I had a Honda with an automatic transmission, and if said transmission was due for an ATF service, I'd probably opt for the Idemitsu Type H Plus ATF; as I understand it, Idemitsu is Honda's OEM maker of DW-1, and it can be had for a very good price:
Best way is to buy from a dealer that ships or offers case pricing for genuine DW-1 fluid.
Idemitsu Type H was tested a while back on Bobistheoilguy vs DW-1 and it had a different makeup with much lower anti-wear additives in the Type H.
You can use the wrong fluid in a trans and have it dead within a few thousand miles. Doesn't matter what brand, what driving style, etc. Clutches are meant to engage in a predetermined way and when they don't bad things happen. Look at ford with their debacle of Powershift!
With that said you can also use the right fluid and still have a failure. Did a fluid change with BMW Trans fluid (ZF Lifeguard 6)on my 760Li with @ 50K miles with fluid that was over $40/quart x 12 quarts when I started having rough shifts even though the fluid was "lifetime fill". It helped for a little bit, but then the issue came back even worse. Eventually BMW put a new trans in under warranty. Felt like you were rear-ended slowing to a red-light. A bad trans design with a worn valve body, or worn clutches, sensors, etc cannot be "fixed" with a fluid change.
Best way is to buy from a dealer that ships or offers case pricing for genuine DW-1 fluid.
Idemitsu Type H was tested a while back on Bobistheoilguy vs DW-1 and it had a different makeup with much lower anti-wear additives in the Type H.
I saw the same thing on BITOG as well. Honda seems to use Zinc in their fluid additives, whereas most aftermarket fluids use Phosphorus. I'm not chemically inclined so I can't say whether it's just two different approaches to the same effect or not.
Here's a link I found with a quick Google Search, relevant to this topic.
However it does beg the question, if the other two fluids, which are more similar in composition to aftermarket fluids than DW-1, are proper replacements for Honda DW-1, then why such a different makeup?
You are certainly welcome to your opinion, but to answer your question, yes, I've seen many transmissions fail because of the incorrect ATF usage.
So, is it possible any given universal ATF happens to be perfect for any given transmission? Yes. In my case, I'm not willing to bet on it for my vehicles; in your case, apparently you are.
Thought I was done, but we're not talking about INCORRECT ATF, we're speaking of OEM compatible fluid.
Now I'm done. Use whatever floats your boat,
Have a great day..
Thought I was done, but we're not talking about INCORRECT ATF, we're speaking of OEM compatible fluid.
Now I'm done. Use whatever floats your boat,
Have a great day..
Just be careful with fluids that are shipped directly to you from warehouse! One member had little balls of coagulated material in all his fluid and it ruined his trans!!!! Want to say it was redline from amazon but still; can happen with any brand of fluid! Happy motoring!
Just wanted to drop in and provide some info on my recent ATF change on a 2008 TL-S:
purchased 4 quarts of 08200-9008 DW-1
drained out approximately 3.8 quarts
filled back up about 3.8 quarts
dipstick level shows the fluid hitting the first hole in the "hot" range while the car is hot
commuted with it for a few days and no problems so far, but planning to top it off
I'm carefully monitoring the transmission by feel before I do my next change because I'm not sure if the 07-08 type-s transmissions develop a dependency on dirty fluid if left neglected for a long time. I've seen other cars with this issue, some mild and some so bad, that a simple drain and fill will cause slippage. I'll subscribe and try to report back when I'm about to do my next drain and fill.
like thoi said, dw1 is the 'newer' version of z1. you should be fine with the z1, in the future i would recommend only using dw1. 06 auto here, doing a 3x1 every other oil change at this point. if you're really concerned do a 3x3 over the course of a week, make sure you go through the gears, and most of the old fluid should be out.
01-09-2021, 09:33 AM
07 TL Type S transmission fluid question
