04AutoTL

I just found this great site and spent the whole day reading and searching before I decided to ask for help.

My wife is the original owner of an 04 Acura TL 5sp-AT with 150,000 trouble free miles...UNTIL

about 2 weeks ago we had the transmission fluid changed for the first time by the dealer. They did a 3 qt change with Honda ATF-Z1. We didnt have any signs or symptoms leading up to the change. It was in for servicing and since my wife has a long commute to work and we never changed the fluid I told the dealer to change the fluid. After the change the car ran smooth and shifted great...no problems.

I took the car on a trip to visit family (225 miles highway) and it ran great. While there I took the car to the store. On the way back to my mother's the transmission began to slip badly (as if it slipped into neutral). It did this 3 times, at slow speed around 5-15 mph, while the engine/transmission was relatively cool. I instantly stopped and checked the fluid (according to manuel) and it was low. I went to the local Honda dealer and got a quart of ATF-Z1 and ended up only putting in less than a 1/2 a quart. I drove it around and re-checked the fluid and all was good.

I then drove home (225 miles) with no problems. The next morning my wife took the kids to school (less than a mile) and it started slipping again. It is slipping at slow speed when starting in 1st or as shifting to 2nd, shortly after inital start up. I cannot see any leaks, the fluid is at correct level, and there is no burning smell.

Any suggestions before I have to take to the dealer? I pretty mechanical and can do the basic things. I had a similar problem with my Dodge Dakota that turned out to be a bad speed sensor that went out on the rear end. Help....Please?

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

I'd bring it too the dealer ASAP, before it gets any worse.

"I hate cars" has a thread about our trannies 3rd and 4th gear sensors wearing out prematurely and it would be very beneficial to replace them every 60k miles or 4 years. Also I would check the dealer you went too, went the dealers that we complain about on Acurazine just too make sure you're being taken care of. I'm not jumping to conclusions, but your car seem to run fine before the dealership so get them to check it out for FREE and let us know what they find. Good luck.

& Welcome to Acurazine

timmahh

Did you ever have the transmission recall/TSB 'update' performed?

Persia-TL

There was also a recall on the automatic 04 TL regarding transmission and 2nd gear issues.

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/3g-tl-service-department-aka-garage-questions-answers-check-here-first-553557/

welcome to AZ..keep us posted

nfnsquared

OP, are you saying that in over 150,000 miles the AT fluid was never changed?

What about the filter?

Ask the dealership if they did the 3 x 3 fluid fill and drain procedure directed by the Acura Service News. If not, take it back with a print out of the Service News (Jan 2008) and tell them you want them to do it right this time:

http://techinfo.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/B080100.PDF

Majofo

It's probably been a while since the ATF was changed. I'm surprised the shop changed it for you at those miles unless it has documentation showing a change withing 50k miles. You're probably going to need a new AT sooner than later. You can try to remedy it by filling it with a thicker ATF but it could go either way at this point.

Persia-TL

I think I may know what could have caused this..Now hear me out on this..

A lot of places and people say that if your transmission fluid hasnt been changed on regular intervals (15/20k miles) dont changed the fluid at all..just check once a while and if level low just add more..
you said you changed the tranny oil after 150k miles for the FIRST time..your old tranny fluid over time has left deposits which actually cause a build up of pressure inside your tranny. it's actually depends on the varnish buildup. By Draining the old fluid you are actually washing away the varnish and the deposit build up causing your line pressure to change.

I know a few of my friends as well that this happened to..a body of mine had an infiniti truck with over 250k miles on the original engine and tranny. he changed the tranny fluid after a long period of time, and a week later his tranny was shot..

Sorry to be the barer of the bad news..i hope this isnt the case for you, however i would take the car straight back to the place you got the tranny fluid changed at

04AutoTL

I do not recall recieving a notice for transmission as I have had all recall notices performed. I looked up the TSB's and did not see a notice for my particular vechile.


I had my dealer, where we bought the car and have all services done, do the fluid change. According to the invoice they changed and replaced 3qts of tranny fluid. I do not know if they changed it 3 times.

I told the service writer that we have never changed the fluid since new and asked what he recommended, which was to have the fluid changed so we did. Two weeks and roughly 1900 miles later, this happens. If the new fluid removed deposits and caused a "decrease" in line preasure, how would this negatively affect the transmission?

04AutoTL

I called the dealer and explained exactly what was occuring. The service writer said what I described was unusuall. He said transmissions tend to slip under load and/or excelleration, not during inital take off or low speed. (and just to clarifiy my wife drives very gingerly and not with a heavy foot)

They cant get the car in till this Wednesday, but to be honest I am somewhat not very confident with this service writer seeing how I informed him the fluid was never changed initially. Also, if they did not properly perform the 3X3 change they will obviously cover their tracks. As I say this I realize we never have changed the fluid up to this point, however....there was no warning of potential damage in changing the fluid now. Up to this point the car ran and shifted excellantly. It's been a great vechile.

04AutoTL

Are there any suggustions other than take it back to the dealer? I was hoping for a speed sensor suggestion or some other sensor that may cause this condition.

My fear is a simple sensor may be out, like what happened on my Dakota, and the dealership tries to sell me a new transmission instead.

Majofo

To be honest you have no one to blame but yourself. It's definitely not an electrical issue. Your ATF was rich with clutch material so the viscosity was very high. You changed out roughly 40% of the rich ATF with new Z1 (thin in comparison). You're definitely going to need a new trans.. you can talk to the shop and try to get some goodwill coverage since you're the original owner but worst case.. you'll be paying out ~$3k for a reman'd trans w/ a 3yr & 36k mi warranty. Whatever you do, don't take your TL to maaco, you'll end up paying for more and probably be dealing with more issues after all is said and done.

Majofo

I think the SW was definitely negligent. Most techs in the shop would have probably told you not to touch it.

04AutoTL

How can you rule out an electrical issue? My Dodge Dakota's transmission appeared to go out very similar. It would start off fine and when the transmission went to shift into 3rd it would suddenly rev up as if it went into neutral. My cousin is a factory Dodge mechanic and had me change out the rear end speed sensor and everything was fine then. Had I taken it to the dealer they could have told me I needed a new transmission and I would have said OK. My cousin has told that dealers he worked for in the past have done just such things to their customers.

nfnsquared

Here's the specific safety recall:

http://techinfo.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/B04-020.PDF

If your car was affected, then you should have received a notice in the mail. If you're sure that the recall has never been done and/or you didn't received the notice, check your VIN to see if it falls in the range listed on the recall. If it does, then check above the 12th character of the engine compartment VIN and see if there is a punch mark or call your dealer and have them look up your VIN in the database. As a 3rd alternative, you can register at myacura.com. Once you're registered (have your VIN handy), it will tell you what recalls affect your car and if they've been completed.

Are you saying that every time the MID gave you a service message you took it to this dealer for service? If so, then they should have changed the fluid when a "3" was on the MID. This should also be in their computer if they did do the change.

One other thing you may consider is to try a 3 x 3 flush yourself but use Amsoil or Redline fluid. A lot of AT owner's swear by Amsoil over the OEM fluid. (Or if the dealer admits to not doing a 3 x3 and agrees to redo the flush, ask them to use Amsoil instead of OEM.)

Majofo

Because it occurred shortly after the fluid change and the issue is occurring in first gear. Pull any trans related DTC's, also while in SS mode, shift from 1st to 2nd manually and see if it upshifts on your input without slipping.

nfnsquared

One more (kind of off topic) thing: Has the timing belt been changed?

04AutoTL

no it hasnt.

nfnsquared

Then I'm sure it's well overdue (the "4" on the MID indicating a TB change comes aroun 105K). You're looking at about $1100 (dealer cost) for that. Add that into the equation...

04AutoTL

I would do the timing belt/water pump myself.

Majofo

Change the timing belt, water pump, tb idler pulley, tb auto tensioner and tb auto adjuster soon! Plugs too!

04AutoTL

I would like to keep this on topic and stick only to the possibilities of fixes for the transmission. To be honest, with 150,000 miles on an 04 TL that only has a trade value of $7000 I do not think I am willing to put $3000 for rebuilt trans plus $1100 for TB, water pump, ect. Not to mention going thru $800 a year in tires. If I cant fix it myself the car is going to be sold as is, parted out, ect. It may be time to cut loss's and buy a more reliable and less maintenance vechile.

So there's no suggestions on fixing this?

Majofo

$800/yr in tires? I have soft 300 rated tires but I've been on the same pair for 2.5 yrs. Sounds like you need an alignment at minimum as well.

More reliable, less maintenance.. wtf?!

It's standard maintenance buddy. All cars need it. Recommendation for ATF is to change all of it at 30k miles or at least one drain and fill every 15k miles. Timing belt, water pump and tune-up schedule for most vehicles is 60k miles.. the TL is 105k miles.

I feel really bad for your TL. mmade22 has over 220k miles on his TL before he sold it. It was pretty much trouble free because he kept on his maintenance. Getting back to your AT, try my suggestion to rule out electrical issues.. You can also replace your transmission filter, search the board there are 2 DIY threads on it. If those are no go, check out the regions section and ask members in your region where a good / reliable transmission shop is located.

csmeance

I'm sorry for your troubles, but as others have said Z1 fluid isn't capable of handling 150K miles, probably not even half that! Once the fluid breaks down and can no longer lubricate the parts properly, the internal parts start wearing down and the fluids carry these particles. These little particles basically thickened up the fluid again so the car would drive fine.

BUT now that the fluid was changed, the particles were all taken out and the internals are VERY worn down and cannot "grip" into each other causing the slipping.

The TL is a very reliable car, and in all honesty a collaboration between your ownership and the dealer has caused your troubles. If you paid attention to the manual, or even for that matter the car itself, you would have seen that the car tells you what it needs!

The Maintenance minder tells you everything! Oil changes, Filter changes, Transmission fluid Changes, coolant changes, timing belt/water pump service, etc. Code A/B followed by a number denoting exactly what it needs, and all are listed in the manual as well!

Also, thank your lucky stars that the belt didn't snap with 150K on the car. If it does snap, that's 1 whole motor down the drain!

Also 800 dollars for tires? Some of the best tires can be bought for around 600 dollars and last 50K miles!

04AutoTL

My wife started a new job 2 years ago and now puts on 40,000 miles a year on the car. This is why we go thru tires every year. This is also why the maintenace is starting to pile up. As I said in the beginning, "I realize this is my own fault", I was just looking for some suggestions...not lectures. I get one day a week to possibly look over the car and get anything done. My comment about a car that requires less maintenance was mis-directed...it was really referring to how the TL likes to go thru tires.

So "yes" my wife has put 80,000 miles on this car in the last 2 years and is why the maintenance has piled on.

Majofo

Get a higher rated tire and check the tread wear. If it's uneven.. I'm sure it is.. get a 4 wheel alignment done. Many tires with >600 tread ratings will be warrantied for miles & wear. Some are warrantied for 150k miles.One of the primary reasons for poor tread wear other than misaligned suspension is under inflated tires. Make sure the tires are filled to 32 psi or 80% of the max rating, whichever is higher.

Go to the regions section and ask the guys in your area about reliable and honest shops you can go to for service. Much of the work that needs to be done can be done by yourself if you have the patience, tools and knowledge.

Good luck with everything.

I hate cars

Your best bet is to do a 3x3 drain and fill (9 quarts) of Redline racing (non friction modified) fluid along with the 3rd and 4th gear sensors. These are not the actual problem but they may help limp it along a little longer.

Obviously you went too long on the fluid. Z1 is a 20,000 mile fluid no matter what the factory tells you.

The switches need to be replaced every 60,000 even though Honda won't admit it.

These two items are responsible for the majority of the Honda AT failures. It may be too late but it's cheaper to spend $200 in fluid and switches than to replace the trans.

The major thing is an automatic is not designed to have any slippage in the clutch packs except for on the shifts which is measured in miliseconds. A second or two of slip is all it takes to fry a clutch pack. Time if a very important factor between being able to fix the problem or having to replace the whole unit.

If you lost enough line pressure to where the clutches are not applying, there may be hope. Change out the filter too.

Many years ago when I worked at a trans repair shop we would not touch cars like yours unless you signed a waiver. Sometimes we would change the filter when it was gettting plugged but catch the old fluid and refill with the old fluid to limp it along for a few extra miles.

04AutoTL

Thank you I Hate Cars. I read your post and a few others where you suggested the same thing. The car runs great on the highway. It tends to slip when when stopped and attempting to drive. If you turn the car off and then restart it works fine. I just brought it home from the dealer where they said it had internal damage and required a replacement....estimate was for $3900!

So I will give your method a shot. If not it'll be for sale cheap for some mechanic to buy and fix up.

I had one other thought so hear me out...in theory, the fluid was old and no longer protected the internal surfaces causing much wear. The fluid then became loaded with particals and somewhat embedded the clutch plates in the transmission. When the fluid was changed it washed away the particals and along with the new slick fluid, caused the transmission to start slipping.

If this is the case, could I not change the fluid as you suggest (redline 3x3) and add this additive http://www.lubegard.com/C-110/Transmission ?

04AutoTL

I agree it is my own fault, but just to check I called 2 Acura dealers and 2 Honda dealers telling them I had 150,000 miles and not sure if the fluid was ever changed....all 4 told me NOT to change the fluid and continue to drive it till it dies!

I questioned the service writer when picking up the car as to why he suggested changing it when 4 other factory dealers said not to...he was speechless for a moment and then tried to claim he didnt recall me talking about the mileage! It was our discussion of the mileage, which was initiated by him, and his suggestion to change the fluid that made me have them do it.

I really think he knew what would happen and was looking for a transmission replacement (again I realize the transmission had already been damage...changing the fluid only brought out the problem sooner than later)

I hate cars

That's a very important part in the bold. Usually when a filter is plugged it will partially unplug itself when the engine is turned off and the particles settle back down. Of course it will eventually and quickly plug itself back up again once running.

It's probably the internall screen that requires the trans to come out of the car and taken apart to get at. But you may still have a fighting chance if you replace the filter located on top of the trans. This may be plugging up and causing your problems.

Lubegard is a good product but don't run it with the Type F. It's a fricition modifier additive and will turn the "racing" non FM fluid back into something resembling factory Z1's frictional characteristics.

myblack04tl

At this point I would definitely go buy 12qts of Redline racing ATF fluid (buy from Amazon $120 shipped). Drain and fill/ drive for 5 minutes going through each gear, then repeat this process 3 times. This will put in 12 new qts of fluid.
Also order the 3rd & 4th gear pressure sensors along with the trans filter (acuraoemparts.com). If you said you are capable of replacing your timing belt than you can easily do all this.

Your transmission is now eating itself so you have nothing to loose. It would be awesome if you did this and you were able to milk the trans for several thousand miles more

I Hate Cars is right, it would be about $200

jsonkimz

iTrader: (1)

I've heard this as well, and logically it makes a lot of sense. New tranny fluids are cleaner and have additives that will clean up the tranny and could prevent the build up in pressure, whereas the old fluid worked fine with its "gunk" because the pressure could be sustained. This is all in my sparse mechanical knowledge and is summarized as I best understand it.

So this puts me somewhat between a rock and a hard place. I have an 05 AT TL with about 68,000 miles on it. (I bought it in March. with 50,000mi on it) To my knowledge the transmission fluid has never been changed. I obviously want to get the most out of my tranny, so I'm not sure what the best course of action is. Should I just leave the AT fluid in it and never touch it? I'm planning on doing the 3rd and 4th gear sensor replacements, but I don't know if it would be good or bad to do a 3x3 of the tranny fluid at this point. I drive a lot (~600mi a week commute) and want this car to last me. I don't mind spending money to do preventative maintenance, but I don't want to do that "preventative maintenance" and have my transmission go out because of it. That would kind of defeat the purpose. In my experience, I drove an F150 to almost 300k (before I sold it) with no transmission fluid changes or problems, and my girlfriends dad has an Accord with 250k+ with no fluid changes and no transmission problems. Thoughts or advice???

nfnsquared

First of all, if you bought it from an Acura dealer, call the service dept and give them the VIN#. If they (and I think any Acura dealer) did any service on the car, they should have a record of it. Also, check the maintenance logbook and the owner's manual service section (around pg 200) for any entries made for maintenance.

Second, if you can't verify, I'd think you'll be fine changing at 68K. The Acura recommended changeout interval for extreme conditions (mountainous, low speed driving) is 60K.

I hate cars

60K is fine on a synthetic. Z1 is not up to the task of that kind of mileage. Sure, it will get you there but as we've learned it will cause other problems down the road. The service recommendations are more likely from the marketing/sales people than the engineers.

jsonkimz

iTrader: (1)

So should I should I replace at this point? Or is it too late for me?

I'm trying to decide if I should just leave everything alone; just replace the 3rd and 4th gear sensors; or do a 3x3 with Redline D4 AND the sensors.

Just hard to decide with the 68k already. And I drive like crazy so I want to make sure I get the most out of my car and treat it well.

nfnsquared

Kind of a crap shoot. On the one hand, if everything is running fine, why change it? On the other hand, the Z1 doesn't seem to hold up well to high mileage as evidenced by multiple complaints in this forum. At 68K, you're not yet into the "high mileage" that some other folks are and just beyond the "extreme driving" recommended interval. If it were me and given the poor high mileage experiences of Z1, I'd probably change it before you put any more miles on the Z1.

Again, have you verified that it hasn't been changed by checking with the Acura dealer

I hate cars

Do the sensors for sure.

Do a single 1x3 drain and fill of the Racing fluid and drive it for a month before doing the second and third drain and fills. You should be fine. At 68K, you could probably do a 3x3 all at once and still be ok but spacing it out is safer.

Majofo

space it out every oil change.

jsonkimz

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the advice, all. I'll probably do what IHC and Majofo recommended and do a 1x3 with the D4 every oil change. To nfnsquared: I bought the car private party and haven't checked with an Acura dealer. But I would bet money that it's never been done. When I bought it the guy said he had done a "significant 50,000 service" but I didn't really buy that. The car is in great shape though. I have a trusted mechanic who I'm taking the car to who will give me his input and do the work. But I appreciate the help.

I hate cars

Not D4. Do the racing.

jsonkimz

iTrader: (1)

My mistake. Thanks. I thought you had recommended D4 before?