'04 to '08 front lower control arm bushing failure - please read and look
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
It is still there just not as severe as it is around 80. After 80 it settles down to the 65 to 75 mph vibration! The wheels and tires were hunter road force balanced and it has done it with both my stockers and my a-specs??
Instructor
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 162
Likes: 1
From: Puerto Rico
Hello Guys and marry xmas to all!
I did the 3rd and 4th gear swith replacement the other day and I noticed my bushings are rippid. Since I read the part has not been redisnged and I am low on cash I would like to know if its importatnt to fix this or I could go by with any major issues. Drive wise I have no issues with the car, however, I did notice my front tires are wearing excesively on the inside and I dont know if this could be related to the bushings. Thanks in advance for any help.
Peace out
I did the 3rd and 4th gear swith replacement the other day and I noticed my bushings are rippid. Since I read the part has not been redisnged and I am low on cash I would like to know if its importatnt to fix this or I could go by with any major issues. Drive wise I have no issues with the car, however, I did notice my front tires are wearing excesively on the inside and I dont know if this could be related to the bushings. Thanks in advance for any help.
Peace out
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,563
Likes: 2
From: USA
tires wearing in excess on the inside is bad it can be from improperly installed shocks or the alignment is off. do you have modified suspension??? the bushings are pretty important and you would want to have those in good condition
Instructor
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 162
Likes: 1
From: Puerto Rico
I have a base 04 stock with 60k miles on it. (im putting 18s on with low offsets in the next two weeks)
So I want to get the 07 TL-S bushings that will fit and suposely are better built?
a baller
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: Ann Arbor/Kalamazoo, MI
I don't have time to do a real detailed write-up but here is the bottom line.
I called a buddy of mine who works at Honda in Torrance here in the design department. We discussed a few things but I made it a point to bring this bushing up. He knew all about the failures associated with this bushing, largely because Civics blow these things out all the time, and they race some Civics where they've needed to come up with a solution.
This bushing is there to serve a few purposes. One is to help control torque steer. Another, and more important reason, is that this "compliance" bushing is intended to give compliance to the entire suspension system.
This bushing is made to absorb and deflect under impact which actually removes the force of impact from other parts of the suspension. Making this a rigid bearing would take away this attribute and could actually cause other bushings or arms in the suspension to fail! So that is not a recommended change.
Changing to poly bushings has not been a good solution either, as the twisting movement of this bushing actually causes the poly to split and has not proven to last in endurance racing (hard on parts, and a good indicator that in 50,000 miles of street use the same failre will occur).
The best method for resolving this issue has been to use a completely rubber-filled mount. Take the stock mount and fill it with 3M window weld. This add enough resilience to the mount to resist breaking, flexes enough to move freely, and is compliant enough to prevent suspension part failures. I found a few good tutorials online but I think I will make a new one specific to our application.
Marcus
I called a buddy of mine who works at Honda in Torrance here in the design department. We discussed a few things but I made it a point to bring this bushing up. He knew all about the failures associated with this bushing, largely because Civics blow these things out all the time, and they race some Civics where they've needed to come up with a solution.
This bushing is there to serve a few purposes. One is to help control torque steer. Another, and more important reason, is that this "compliance" bushing is intended to give compliance to the entire suspension system.
Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: com·pli·ance
Pronunciation: \kəm-ˈplī-ən(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: circa 1630
1 a : the act or process of complying to a desire, demand, proposal, or regimen or to coercion b : conformity in fulfilling official requirements
2 : a disposition to yield to others
3 : the ability of an object to yield elastically when a force is applied : flexibility
Pronunciation: \kəm-ˈplī-ən(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: circa 1630
1 a : the act or process of complying to a desire, demand, proposal, or regimen or to coercion b : conformity in fulfilling official requirements
2 : a disposition to yield to others
3 : the ability of an object to yield elastically when a force is applied : flexibility
Changing to poly bushings has not been a good solution either, as the twisting movement of this bushing actually causes the poly to split and has not proven to last in endurance racing (hard on parts, and a good indicator that in 50,000 miles of street use the same failre will occur).
The best method for resolving this issue has been to use a completely rubber-filled mount. Take the stock mount and fill it with 3M window weld. This add enough resilience to the mount to resist breaking, flexes enough to move freely, and is compliant enough to prevent suspension part failures. I found a few good tutorials online but I think I will make a new one specific to our application.
Marcus
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 205
Likes: 22
I have seen spherical bearings that move on two axis... both rotational and vertical movement. wouldn't an XY axis bearing like this be a solution?
How is this compliance bushing anymore of an issue than the older rear control arm bushing issue? I realize it's on the front end and critical, but I think a spherical in that spot would be the best solution(you can forget about daily driving your car)
How is this compliance bushing anymore of an issue than the older rear control arm bushing issue? I realize it's on the front end and critical, but I think a spherical in that spot would be the best solution(you can forget about daily driving your car)
Good question. I think the answer is really having to do with the function and load on the bushing.
On the older Civic trailing arms the bushing is designed to allow the arm to rotate. It has less load on it also.
The compliance bushing on the TL is designed to twist. Also, because of the weight and torque put on the arm there are a lot more forces involved.
It adds up to the bushings failing more regularly on the TL. Agree that the spherical bearing would seem to be the best way to go. But it was specifically not recommended to do that.
On the older Civic trailing arms the bushing is designed to allow the arm to rotate. It has less load on it also.
The compliance bushing on the TL is designed to twist. Also, because of the weight and torque put on the arm there are a lot more forces involved.
It adds up to the bushings failing more regularly on the TL. Agree that the spherical bearing would seem to be the best way to go. But it was specifically not recommended to do that.
B A N N E D
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,407
Likes: 0
From: MI
Had my tires rotated about 2000 miles ago (Bfgoodrich G-Force All seasons) I started hearing what i thought was a wheelbearing, Took my car to my local Honda dealer (Dont deal with my local Acura dealer for about a million reasons) He writes up that my compalint is that I'm complaining that i hear alot of road noise, Solution to the problem REPLACE TIRES! TIRES NOT IN STOCK lol
Tires are starting to wear on the inside... thats seriously halarious to me. So i talk to the technican and he told me the same, I told him that replacing the tires would only be a temperory fix to the problem, he agreed? I told him the suspension is not designed not to angle the tires, He said my problem is coming from either 3 things
1. Lack of tire rotation (just got them rotated )
2. Alignment (took my car from them at this point and told him i'm going to get the car on a machine to check it out right now it ended up that the one of the tires was .8 of a degree off, the guy there told me it has to be the struts for sure because only one tire was off a little, and there is wear on two of the tires, hence the problem is on both sides alignment issue is only with one wheel. saved 40 bucks by having it check out at bell tire insted of having the dealership do it)
3. Struts- Problem with the struts is that they are not putting weight on the wheels correctly and causing the tires to wear on the inside(they completly checked the suspension at honda everything checked out fine... even tho i'm sure they saw FRONT BUSHING TORN
so tommorow they are calling acura telling them the issue is for sure with my struts because the alignment proves the issue is on both sides. My car also has that little wiggle in the steering wheel at highway speeds and there is no way in hell i'm going to let them replace my struts and not replace the torn bushing... So i'll most definetly keep everyone updated.
Tires are starting to wear on the inside... thats seriously halarious to me. So i talk to the technican and he told me the same, I told him that replacing the tires would only be a temperory fix to the problem, he agreed? I told him the suspension is not designed not to angle the tires, He said my problem is coming from either 3 things
1. Lack of tire rotation (just got them rotated )
2. Alignment (took my car from them at this point and told him i'm going to get the car on a machine to check it out right now it ended up that the one of the tires was .8 of a degree off, the guy there told me it has to be the struts for sure because only one tire was off a little, and there is wear on two of the tires, hence the problem is on both sides alignment issue is only with one wheel. saved 40 bucks by having it check out at bell tire insted of having the dealership do it)
3. Struts- Problem with the struts is that they are not putting weight on the wheels correctly and causing the tires to wear on the inside(they completly checked the suspension at honda everything checked out fine... even tho i'm sure they saw FRONT BUSHING TORN
so tommorow they are calling acura telling them the issue is for sure with my struts because the alignment proves the issue is on both sides. My car also has that little wiggle in the steering wheel at highway speeds and there is no way in hell i'm going to let them replace my struts and not replace the torn bushing... So i'll most definetly keep everyone updated.
1- doubt it. That would slow the inner wear possibly but certainly not prevent it.
2- This is most likely. Toe is probably off, or you still need the rear suspension bulletins looked at.
3- First off this car doesn't have struts it has shocks. This is a possible cause for sure, but if it were that bad you'd be seeing more than inner wear. You'd have some pretty boaty handling too. But the shocks being worn does not specifically cause the alignment to be off. They would allow excessive movement in the suspension which would cause excessive alignment change when you are driving. Static on an alignment machine you might not see and issue, but when driving you might have a problem.
The wiggle in your wheel is caused by wheel balance being off. That is probably a product of the tires wearing unevenly.
I'd first drive the car to determine a worn shock issue to see if it were obvious. Then I'd look at the alignment to see how that is. Then I'd look for applicable service bulletins.
People tend to dislike dealers when they try to self diagnose (or get 3rd party diags) and push what they think down the dealers throat and get shut down because of it. The REAL reason to hate a dealer is if they don't do their due diligence themselves thus earning that fat labor bill.
Marcus
Marcus
2- This is most likely. Toe is probably off, or you still need the rear suspension bulletins looked at.
3- First off this car doesn't have struts it has shocks. This is a possible cause for sure, but if it were that bad you'd be seeing more than inner wear. You'd have some pretty boaty handling too. But the shocks being worn does not specifically cause the alignment to be off. They would allow excessive movement in the suspension which would cause excessive alignment change when you are driving. Static on an alignment machine you might not see and issue, but when driving you might have a problem.
The wiggle in your wheel is caused by wheel balance being off. That is probably a product of the tires wearing unevenly.
I'd first drive the car to determine a worn shock issue to see if it were obvious. Then I'd look at the alignment to see how that is. Then I'd look for applicable service bulletins.
People tend to dislike dealers when they try to self diagnose (or get 3rd party diags) and push what they think down the dealers throat and get shut down because of it. The REAL reason to hate a dealer is if they don't do their due diligence themselves thus earning that fat labor bill.
Marcus
Marcus
practicing nihilist
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 990
Likes: 5
From: Jax, FL
Had my tires rotated about 2000 miles ago (Bfgoodrich G-Force All seasons) I started hearing what i thought was a wheelbearing, Took my car to my local Honda dealer (Dont deal with my local Acura dealer for about a million reasons) He writes up that my compalint is that I'm complaining that i hear alot of road noise, Solution to the problem REPLACE TIRES! TIRES NOT IN STOCK lol
Tires are starting to wear on the inside... thats seriously halarious to me. So i talk to the technican and he told me the same, I told him that replacing the tires would only be a temperory fix to the problem, he agreed? I told him the suspension is not designed not to angle the tires, He said my problem is coming from either 3 things
1. Lack of tire rotation (just got them rotated )
2. Alignment (took my car from them at this point and told him i'm going to get the car on a machine to check it out right now it ended up that the one of the tires was .8 of a degree off, the guy there told me it has to be the struts for sure because only one tire was off a little, and there is wear on two of the tires, hence the problem is on both sides alignment issue is only with one wheel. saved 40 bucks by having it check out at bell tire insted of having the dealership do it)
3. Struts- Problem with the struts is that they are not putting weight on the wheels correctly and causing the tires to wear on the inside(they completly checked the suspension at honda everything checked out fine... even tho i'm sure they saw FRONT BUSHING TORN
so tommorow they are calling acura telling them the issue is for sure with my struts because the alignment proves the issue is on both sides. My car also has that little wiggle in the steering wheel at highway speeds and there is no way in hell i'm going to let them replace my struts and not replace the torn bushing... So i'll most definetly keep everyone updated.
Tires are starting to wear on the inside... thats seriously halarious to me. So i talk to the technican and he told me the same, I told him that replacing the tires would only be a temperory fix to the problem, he agreed? I told him the suspension is not designed not to angle the tires, He said my problem is coming from either 3 things
1. Lack of tire rotation (just got them rotated )
2. Alignment (took my car from them at this point and told him i'm going to get the car on a machine to check it out right now it ended up that the one of the tires was .8 of a degree off, the guy there told me it has to be the struts for sure because only one tire was off a little, and there is wear on two of the tires, hence the problem is on both sides alignment issue is only with one wheel. saved 40 bucks by having it check out at bell tire insted of having the dealership do it)
3. Struts- Problem with the struts is that they are not putting weight on the wheels correctly and causing the tires to wear on the inside(they completly checked the suspension at honda everything checked out fine... even tho i'm sure they saw FRONT BUSHING TORN
so tommorow they are calling acura telling them the issue is for sure with my struts because the alignment proves the issue is on both sides. My car also has that little wiggle in the steering wheel at highway speeds and there is no way in hell i'm going to let them replace my struts and not replace the torn bushing... So i'll most definetly keep everyone updated.
Hate the wiggle!
10th Gear
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Would a little taller side wall tire help with so much steering sensitivity?I was parked beside a 1st gen TSX and noticed they have a slightly taller side wall tire.Im guessing they handle great?I know there lighter but could be a trade off on our car for less steering input?Thanks again Heeltoe for all the help.Hated this car for awhile but it looks so good and the engine kicks,would like to get things feeling right.
practicing nihilist
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 990
Likes: 5
From: Jax, FL
I was also told by a friend that only the best tires on the production line are picked to go to factory showroom cars - the rest being sold to the public. I think this is totally possible since everyone that's owned a new vehicle knows it will never drive like that 1st 10K miles ever again.
I think the Mich Pilots were great...for about 20K and not worth the dollar per mile to replace.
I think the Mich Pilots were great...for about 20K and not worth the dollar per mile to replace.
sorry but can someone with a manual be kind enough to post up torque values for the bolts that hold the lower control arm in place?
... I'm assuming it will be too difficult to fill the mount while it's still attached
... I'm assuming it will be too difficult to fill the mount while it's still attached
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 137
Likes: 4
From: Atlanta
Yep, Mine Too....
Hey guys. Interesting thread going on here. Took a look at my bushings
(06' with 49,xxx), and both sides each have one crack on them about an inch long, in the same location. Handling/ride does not seem to be affected (yet).
Was wondering if it is worthwhile trying to get these replaced? I'd hate to go all the way to the dealer and be told they're just stress cracks....
A poll should be started where people can "vote" on successful (or unsuccessful) replacement by the dealer.
By redlantrn, shot with Canon PowerShot SD850 IS at 2010-01-05
(06' with 49,xxx), and both sides each have one crack on them about an inch long, in the same location. Handling/ride does not seem to be affected (yet).
Was wondering if it is worthwhile trying to get these replaced? I'd hate to go all the way to the dealer and be told they're just stress cracks....
A poll should be started where people can "vote" on successful (or unsuccessful) replacement by the dealer.
By redlantrn, shot with Canon PowerShot SD850 IS at 2010-01-05
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
My car is under the extended warranty and when I took it to the place to have the oil changed they told me that my passenger side was cracked. I am wondering if this would be covered under the warranty or if it is something that they will not replace. The reason I am asking is because the local dealership is so far away that I do not want to drive all the way down there to come home without getting this fixed LOL
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,563
Likes: 2
From: USA
i just ordered some new bushings to goop with window weld... ill let u guys know how it goes..... the car is still sitting nicely with the poly, maybe ill put them on someone elses car to see how that works. also how long does the 3m poly take to cure? anybody know?
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 205
Likes: 22
thanks
