newkatbie

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I am starting a new build on a 3g 6mt. My new build will incorporate: - 100 shot nitrous - Nitrous progressive controller - Exhaust cutout (electronic) - Computer connected to stock nav screen I plan to integrate a nitrous progressive controller, nitrous activation, nitrous purge into the PC. I will also connect the cutout into the computer. The end result will be on-screen activation of nitrous, purge, and cutout and on-screen control of progressive controller. I should have parts in a week. There will be an O2 sensor integrated into the progressive controller for safety. I have estimated the current power at 225whp for a 6mt. At 260 hp, that is 86.54% of the power to the wheels. Adding 100hp for 100 shot (+or- 2%, according to manufacturer), that is 360hp. The cutout should be good for additional whp (upto 20-30whp). At 3500lbs, I can reduce 215lbs for an estimated 3285lbs. This setup should get 13.0 s quarter mile idealy with stock weight and 12.7s quarter mile with weight reduction. I think it will get 12.5s with a cutout. The idea is to be able to switch from completely stock to M3 fast in less than a half hour. I will consider a dedicated fuel system for race gas (also integrated into computer), but will originally stick with ~100 octane for racing. The weight reduction will be reversable in 30 mins. The additional power will be on demand only. I plan to keep the great gas mileage and have a 12s car. I will post pics as I do the install. I expect this take about a month or two at most.

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

cutout? like an exhaust electronic cutout? I kinda doubt that will net 30whp since that's just part of the catback...

props for trying out nitrous though, thats something I dont see very often on a TL

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

You should get in contact with Andy Gerzina, he was the first TL to run nitrous.

06nhtsx

Sounds like a great set up. But if I were you I'd just boost it. Yea it will cost more but the power is always there, you won't lose much gas mileage if any and no bottles to fill or deal with.

Pghpizzaman

what are you tuning this with? on the nav screen? are you putting in a tablet?

subinf

What tires are you planning on running ?

Atlas.46

Sub'd

NvrDwn

If you do not tune it with the cutout open your gains will be little to none. There have been two dynos showing the difference between open and closed on na engines. Both of them lost 1-2hp with the cutout open. I would expect similar results if untuned with it open.

pohljm

I would research Innacurates nitous system thread

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

yeah am not sure if you want the NOS spray to be "automated"

usually people run Meth/Water Meth in an automated system which sprays meth to cool the intake charge....

also 215lb of weight loss cant really be quickly reversed. I am at 650lbs of weight loss and looking at my spreadsheet by gutting the trunk AND rear seats AND running less fuel you will take out 188-200 lbs...and anyone will tell you that, it will take over half a day to remove and put that back in...

the easiest way will be light weight rims/tires, racing seat for the driver, low fuel, spare tire/etc, this will gain you around 250 lbs of weight loss (hell the seats AND fuel will be ~150lbs lost in itself)....


do PM Gerzand...he has been running NOS (recently sold his setup) and he knows a lot about it....

newkatbie

iTrader: (1)

Yes. Electronic cutouts. The cutout will only be open when nitrous is running. The effect will be like a catback. only better. Nitrous benefits from exhaust upgrades the most. The increase in flow after the j-pipe should produce more power. Google accord exhaust cutout dyno. You can see a dyno of the effect. Not everything on the internet is true, but this seems valid. Small gains on a dyno can be attributed to dyno error and user error. This guy got 20+ hp from the cutout and nitrous. A very small gain was seen on the stock j30, but that may be due to error. A 200cell cat may increase the effect. A j-pipe that allows for 2.5in all throughout and better design may also help. The whole point is to eliminate the restriction of the extra tubing and muffler from the setup. I also want to keep the quiet sound of the oem exhaust when I am not having fun with the car. A catback is just noise without the tuning or a turbo. The cats may be worth it, but add almost nothing alone. The j-pipe is also $500+ and worth a few hp na. Not really a great benefit and the added noise is annoying in traffic. I hate loud cars that can't move fast.

newkatbie

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I have seen the videos, and I would not mind the advice. I think his car also had cutouts.

newkatbie

iTrader: (1)

A turbo is veeeery expensive. It also puts stress on the internal components all the time. The TL is not meant for a turbo because of the high compression and weak springs and retainers. That would eventually blow the engine. You need higher octane gas, and I am not willing to pay for race fuel for everyday use. The advantage of the nitrous is that it can be used only when you need it. You can run it once a week and not affect the engine life. I plan to use race gas when it is in use or use dedicated fuel. That should keep it safe enough. I live in a place where you get tickets easily. Having that power on demand is a great way to support the state, but I don't feel like feeding the state troopers from paycheck when they already get their share from taxes.
I have though about the retainers, but that will be a separate setup.

newkatbie

iTrader: (1)

I am running this off my current setup. It is a carputer connected to the stock nav screen. I bought the basics and upgraded it from a member of this forum. I installed it with the touchscreen functions working. I forgot his name, but thanks!

newkatbie

iTrader: (1)

Good luck finding the methanol specs. Methanol is great for detonation, but it is rarely used because it is only good up to a certain shot. It also needs much larger jets and water combined with it is not that great. It could supplement the nitrous and gas nozzle, but it is not worth the extra effort. I read the thread, and he gave up. He never installed it on his own car. Race fuel through the nozzle would be a better alternative. It would allow for larger shots and have enough information available to make it work in the short-term. Mixing methanol requires knowing afr with the exact amount of both fuel and meth. that is too complicated to be used by someone with a limited budget. I don't have sponsors! This is just my opinion, so don't be offended.

newkatbie

iTrader: (1)

I have already removed the seats before. It is not that hard. Practice makes perfect. My buddy will also help. I have been working on cars since I was 16. I have not been modding cars, but I have a great understanding of chemistry and mechanics. At worst, this will be a proof of concept. The main focus is integrating the electronics.
I think Gerzand would be great resource. I want to keep it safe.

newkatbie

iTrader: (1)

already have removed the spare tire. The fuel is not part of the equation because it is added weight. The 215lbs comes from removal of rear seat (five bolts), the passenger seat (four bolts), light racing seat (four bolts out, four bolts in), trunk panels (simple screws that can be removed by hand), and spare tire (one nut). In my years of driving, I have never changed the tire on the side of the road, so the spare tire can stay out. Also, AAA can come within an hour. I can also go with a lighter battery for additional weight loss. Since I put in an intake, it should worth a couple pounds, but I'm not counting that. I also have Tien Street Advance, 18lb 18" wheels, and 245 40s. I can remove the back seat, replace the front driver seat, and remove the passenger seat fairly quickly. The trunk is rarely used, so that can be changed back over at my convenience. 650lbs means it is bare. I can't live with that. It is a personal preference. I'd rather buy a civic and take everything out. It is not much of a sleeper at that point.

newkatbie

iTrader: (1)

With a progressive controller, it can be automated. You can use 20-30 for daily use and not hurt the car. Then go all out with 100 or more with the cutout open. Imagine: you want to race, you hit a button on your screen and your bottle opens, heater turns on (yes, I know it takes a while. I'll think about this more.), system activates, purge sprays, and you can get 100 hp more at full throttle. I will have to tackle some problems when I get to them. No point in worrying about a million things. One thing at a time.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ race or not, I like hitting vtec every now and then....seems like, you will be spraying NOS as a fuel....

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

You might want to learn how to use the multi quote feature...

quickkick127

You don't want to go FI because of premature wear on the motor but you're willing to flash freeze and then super heat your valves over and over again?

What happens to a metal's lattice structure after many extreme temperature variations? More point defects and therefore less slip between grains causing the metal to become less ductile and more brittle. You can ask Paul to show you some destroyed valves that he pulled out of motors because of how brittle they have became.

I wouldn't think a conservative boost from a supercharger would yield as much damage to the internals but I don't know for sure.

Are you planning on using a setup like Flash pro with its dual calibrations where you can load a second tune, say for open exhaust and nos, and reflash back afterwards relatively easily?

I hate cars

You need to state opinions as opinions. Turbos supply additional air on demand. The engine operates as it normally does when not in boost. The engine doesn't know the turbo is there in normal driving. There is no additional wear or stress during normal driving and under full throttle, nitrous is going to produce much more wear...... well, broken parts.

Nitrous and high compression are not friendly either.

Nitrous also needs more octane for a given hp increase. Cylinder pressure is cylinder pressure. At a certain pressure you're going to get detonation or worse, pre-ignition. Both require higher octane when pushing substantially more hp than stock and both need good fuel at around the same level but with nitrous instant ramp up things happen quicker and you can't just bring it up on full power slowly which enables a more aggressive tune.

Progressive nitrous kits don't work well under sustained use. For long term reliability you would be better using a staged system. Use a small stage that's triggered at full throttle so you can hit it in 2nd gear and another larger stage after you're past the wheel spin speed.

That brings me to the next point, with a turbo you're just crossing over from vacuum to boost. The engine is just getting more air. It's no different than driving around at 1 mile elevation and then taking it to sealevel. You have more intake pressure at sealevel. The turbo does the same thing, it's just a bigger difference. Power is usually linear and controllable with the gas pedal.

I agree.

Not only is turbocharging MUCH easier on internals than an equivalent HP nitrous car, here's something that will blow everyone's minds........ Turbocharging in high hp applications, say 800hp and above is easier on the engine than naturally aspirated. There are long time famous racers beginning to admit there's no reason to ever use anything besides turbos. I can remember back when the NA guys were breaking stuff and tearing engines down all the time just as the nitrous guys were. We were making as much or more power with half the cubes with our turbo engines on our stock longblock 200,000 mile engines. At the track we might twist the boost controller knob for a few more psi as the air cooled off at night or add some more fuel or timing with the laptop but that was it. We were having fun in between races while the other guys were rushing to get everything together before the next race. Most of ours drove home while most of the others went on the trailer for the drive home.

I'm just speaking generally now, not aimed at anyone in particular, just rambling as I always do...

Back to the topic at hand, if he's going to use a supplemental fuel with nitrous, 100 octane race gas is probably the way to go. Nitrous cools the charge better than meth so using meth for cooling really doesn't make a difference. It is nice since it's about the price of premium with a lot higher octane and if you're willing to stick with it and learn how to jet it (you need 2.5 times to 3 times the meth) without blowing the engine up during the learning process it might be worth it. 100 octane gasoline would be easier and it should be plenty safe for a 100 shot.

Meth as a fuel can be used as a supplemental fuel for any hp level but you need larger jets, larger pumps, etc. You DO NOT use water mixed with meth when it's used as a supplemental fuel. I don't use water in my meth on my turbo car either. It's 100% pointless and only costs hp and it's harder to tune.

On a manual if it's not entirely ECU controlled you need a window switch and full throttle switch at a minimum.

A cutout can yield 20 or more hp during nitrous use over the stock exhaust since you're flowing a lot more exhaust volume.

You're not going to be running anywhere near 12s with 350hp unless you put it on tire. With a good summer tire, you might hit a 13.6 and that's with plenty of practice. The track usually isn't too friendly to street tires.

For a 100 shot a traditional "fogger" will work fine. You can go direct port if you want but it's really not necessary at that level.

A bottle heater is used to maintain a more or less constant bottle pressure. It's usually not used when the bottle is full or mostly full. It's used as the bottle gets used up to bring the pressure up to avoid going rich and losing power. Have you ever seen what happens when a heater gets left on by accident and the safety valve malfunctions? It pretty much turns the car inside out.


What it comes down to, and this is not an opinion, nitrous in small doses is a good, cheap way to increase hp for short bursts. Turbos are gentler on internals and are more expensive up front but the cost of refilling a 10lb bottle every week or two will make up for it over the course of a couple years.

I've been running a 600rwhp V6 for a lot of years and it's quiet and docile and if you didn't know what the car was you would have no idea it's quick. When you put the pedal down it's other personality comes out and it's loud and brutal. The best part is I don't have to push any buttons or flip a switch. The methanol gives me the octane for high boost all the time and it's triggered automatically, the turbo acts as a muffler and it's quiet when driving normally. I'm sure anyone with a turbo TL will say the same.

I know this isn't a turbo vs nitrous thread but I thought I would correct some of the myths.

06nhtsx

IHC I couldn't have said it better myself. Great post!

OP I'd do a little more research on a s/c or turbo set up before throwing all my eggs into the nitrous basket. I too am a long time drag racer and have built many n/a, boosted and nitrous cars I'm telling you spend a little more now boost the car and you will have fun for years to come. That is if you tune the car properly and keep the a/f in check.

bouncer07

I like your opinion, but your statement is for your entertainment. I've seen High compression engines do so well with turbo set ups.

Estimating your current power is like guessing you'll hit 13's and then blaming it's the tires spinning and track conditions. You'll be lucky to see 225 whp on your stock engine.

You might as well go get it dyno'd as a fresh start on your project as a baseline. You might like what you see, you might be disappointed.

06nhtsx

I also had a good friend that has a boosted f20c in his s2k. Motor is completely stock he's running 7-8psi on pump gas making 305-315rwhp. He's had the turbo kit on since 2004 and the car has over 100k on it. Yes he's broken 3 rear ends but never a motor. The f20c is 11.7-1 compression which is higher then the j35's 11.0-1.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

this is why its dumb to announce your plans on acurazine.
just do it and prove the haters wrong
or blow up your motor only to find that acurazine was right.

I'm still waiting for him to prove us wrong

06nhtsx

Haha post of the day right there. I did the same on srtforums no one would run a Garrett 57 trim they said it wouldn't make power on a 2.4. So I bought one tried it made 456whp and ran an 11.3 @ 129mph sure shook up the Srt 50 trim nut huggers

newkatbie

iTrader: (1)

I think the title was misleading. I want to use digital controls for it. I also want to control the shot size from inside. I want to have it ready to go when I want. I don't want to have hit nitrous every time. That would be crazy and a waste.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

use the megasquirt 3.

newkatbie

iTrader: (1)

Holy sh!t that was long. The progressive controller monitors afr, has a window switch, and lets you progressively increase power like a sc or turbo. If the rapid increase in torque is bad, a gradual increase is safer. I don't want a $8000 turbo kit, $1000 clutch, $1000 misc components, etc. That is not worth it. For that amount of money, I would get a civic and get forged internals with a turbo. That civic will be faster than your heavy turbo TL. That is not the point. No one does nitrous on this car. I want to show it is safe and practical. I don't need to spend $10-12k on parts because I want to buy another car instead. I can hear a turbo, even a stock one, on a car. That is not a sleeper. The whole point is to make it look stock and still make surprising power when I want. I know you can't leave the bottle warmer on all day. I appreciate your input, but I am not an idiot. A turbo is the best way to go if you want to spend $$$$. A supercharger adds stress to the engine all the time. Nitrous is cheap horsepower, but it can be very safe. The point is not a turbo vs nitrous comparison. I don't feel like dropping the tank for fuel pump. I don't feel like taking the entire exhuast apart. I don't want to get worse gas mileage all the time to have v8 power from a v6. I don't want a 3in exhuast to announce I am there. I don't want to show off my shiny parts. i want to hide them. If you look at all the parts, you will see a pattern. They can be used while keeping stock look, sound, and feel. The difference between this and other nitrous installs is that mine will be digital. No switch, no button, no clues.

newkatbie

iTrader: (1)

I need an expert or an example to overcome the learning curve. Would it work with CAN/BUS? I know AEM stand alone does not? I thought about a bunch of relays to have both stock ecu and AEM, but that would be a long wiring project.

newkatbie

iTrader: (1)

I just read the long post just in space wrote. Sorry about my initial reply; I only read like one paragraph. I realized you actually made a few good points. I still want to go nitrous for the sake of saving money. I can get better tires, but the axle is also breakable. I would rather just race from 40mph or similar. I just got a little tired of the haters and would not mind advise from someone who actually knows what they are talking about. What is best way to get afr readings? I have a single AEM wide band and will buy another, I just need a single 0-5v signal to use n2o safely. The solenoids are under warranty, so they can be replaced if something breaks. The progressive controller supports two stages, so that is an option. I just want to get it done first, then upgrade. I don't expect to run 12s right off the bat. I do expect lots of small problems. The reason I posted here is to get help from experienced nitrous, turbo, sc, or even na owners and do something new.

NvrDwn

Keep that last sentence in mind and realize that long post from I hate cars is one of the smartest guys on this forum and you pretty much told him he was wrong. He was trying to help you in the right direction, and Btw you can get a turbo kit installed and make over 350whp for 6k.

newkatbie

iTrader: (1)

I only read the part about a bottle heater blowing up a faulty bottle. As far as $6k for a turbo installed, I worked at a shop. The rate in my state is atleast $90hour. It would cost thousands just for labor. The j&r ecu is not made anymore, so that means TL-s ecu and flashpro for $1000. A clutch is $1000. Tune is $500 or so. Then you need injectors, fuel pump, intake, and exhaust. Then you add the price of the turbo kit. It is not cheap. A guy told me he knows someone can do a turbo install for a few thousand (not J&R, custom). That still doesn't include the price of all the supporting stuff needed. A nitrous kit can make 350+whp in $1000 with cheap racing seats, nitrous controller(for small increase in power per RPM or 0.5 sec, window switch, o2 sensor integration), entire kit, cutout, etc. Then I can run 100 octane through dedicated fuel for nitrous only (cheap for fuel). I just need to know what others are doing for afr. I wanted to share and get help in achieving my goal. You can't do it is nothing more than a person admitting they can't do it, so neither can anyone else.

What I don't get is why everyone is hating on nitrous? It is legitimate power. It is on demand. It is cheap. It has a very different advantage than sc or turbo. Unless you are looking for it, I hide a nitrous system. You can't hide a turbo or sc.
This car is so underrated. That is an advantage. Regardless, it is for fun!

gerzand

iTrader: (3)

Best of luck man, but truly reconsider the use of a progressive shot and go for staged injection instead. The use of PWM wreaks havoc on solenoids and is for a drag car with failover solenoids in case of a "stuck open" scenario.

newkatbie

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the suggestion. I am using lightning solenoids with the same brand prog. I will add another n2o solenoid before the progressed one and ground it separately. If the regular solenoid fails, the first one can be shut off because it should last as long as a solenoid without progression. The lightning series are lifetime guaranteed. No extra cost except for the extra solenoid and -4an to -4an. I am very interested in your nitrous setup, though.

newkatbie

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Here is a short video of the computer. I did not show all the features because it was hot and I was sweating. Acurazine won't let me load my hi res pictures of the whole system because of the limits on size. I might resize them later. The video is poor quality because of Youtube. Sorry about my shaky hands, it was uncomfortable and hot as h3ll.
No. that is not my name.

newkatbie

iTrader: (1)

The system has been tested on 75shot on a ramp up from 35 to 75 from 3800RPM to 6500RPM with max shot at 4800RPM. It is pretty smooth. No jerking. Need to replace axel before further testing(got a reman. that's defective) No spare tire, light weight 18s, tein SA, weapon R intake, RV6 strut bar, NX maximizer 4, Zex bottle and gauge, and much more) Stock interior, but I will put in the racing seat on next test run. Please no more Turbo>nitrous stuff! Thankx.