Supercharger jerking issue
Thread Starter
321 whp SAE
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,090
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From: Matawan, NJ
Originally Posted by againstallodds1
Yup exactly what Accuratein and Ryan97812 said. Ryan97812 was talking about a methanol/water injector. I am new to F/I also so I cant really say much. I checked out some prices for m/i and for 299.00 isnt bad. I am meeting up with Ryan tomorrow to check out the blower and I will ask him about it and see if it is adaptical for our car. And see what the pro and cons are about it. He will probably be doing my install of the charger, hopefully he has a dyno, I would like to see my before and after boost with procats on a 5at. At e-shift I put out 246 whp and trq was low 215. Could be because my t/b was loose cause my install of outlaw spacers. I have to get on a dyno very soon after the blower to make sure my air/fuel is ok. Any one know where I can get some boost gauges and air/fuel gauges for our car?
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,172
Likes: 1,818
From: Bakersfield
Originally Posted by MichaelBenz
I hear what you are saying....but from talking to the TL people that have em on there...they are smoking the tires at the top of 2nd gear (auto) and 3rd (man).....and I can tell you that mine doesnt smoke the tires to the top of second.....so it HAS to be producing something significant. Seems as if you could transfer that power to the pavement you would show a real gain in time? Am I wrong here?
I would never shun the idea of an after cooler but i am not willing to spend more money on my setup other than the possibility of water/methanol injection. I dont street race and am not driving all day long to reap the benifits of an intercooler. 11 to 1 compression for boost is great as long as its tuned right. If you look at all the big name fwd turbo set ups their almost all running high comp. My brothers civic hatch is 12.5 to 1 and we were planning on doing a big turbo with methanol on that motor without an intercooler. Methanol motors dont get hot. You dont even need a radiator but there only for the track. The throttle body is before the s/c so that wouldnt have to be removed. The outlet of the blower is a four bolt flange that turns into a 2.5 inch outlet. It is then joined to the 90 degree outlet from the intake with a silicone hose. There is room for the intercooler. But why? There is no way to tune our ecms. Comptech isnt going to do anything for the acm for more boost or an intercooler that they didnt design. If you look at the dyno graph http://www.comptechusa.com/images/dy...percharger.pdf
The s/c doesnt add signifagant hp till the top.
The s/c doesnt add signifagant hp till the top.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,172
Likes: 1,818
From: Bakersfield
Originally Posted by RYAN97812
I would never shun the idea of an after cooler but i am not willing to spend more money on my setup other than the possibility of water/methanol injection. I dont street race and am not driving all day long to reap the benifits of an intercooler. 11 to 1 compression for boost is great as long as its tuned right. If you look at all the big name fwd turbo set ups their almost all running high comp. My brothers civic hatch is 12.5 to 1 and we were planning on doing a big turbo with methanol on that motor without an intercooler. Methanol motors dont get hot. You dont even need a radiator but there only for the track. The throttle body is before the s/c so that wouldnt have to be removed. The outlet of the blower is a four bolt flange that turns into a 2.5 inch outlet. It is then joined to the 90 degree outlet from the intake with a silicone hose. There is room for the intercooler. But why? There is no way to tune our ecms. Comptech isnt going to do anything for the acm for more boost or an intercooler that they didnt design. If you look at the dyno graph http://www.comptechusa.com/images/dy...percharger.pdf
The s/c doesnt add signifagant hp till the top.
The s/c doesnt add signifagant hp till the top.
With the addition of an intercooler, it's volume, and the volume of the tubing, I promise you for drivabilitiy's sake, the TB has to be on the pressure side of things near the intake manifold.
You don't have to drive all day to reap the benefits of an intercooler. The blower heats the air up instantly any time it's producing boost. It might get heatsoaked with a bunch of driving but the majority of the heat is from the compression of the air.
Id take your motor too. Hell my 434 sbc has 11.75 to 1 and i was running it on 100 that i got from the sunoco i used to work for. that motor makes 654 hp and i drove it on the street for a while. But for my daily driver family car what is avalible is what i got. And your wrong about the throttle body for a roots style blower. The blower has an internal bypass valve which completely eliminates the air passing the blower. Look at a cobra motor wheres the tb? Where is it on a magna charger on an ls1-2. Turbo and centrifical need the tb on the pressure side but need a blow off valve or recirculating valve. I know i dont have to drive all day to reap the benifits but i am considering the cost of the aftercooler, tuning which isnt avalible at this time for our ecms, etc. It is a luxury sporty family car that is fun to drive with the edition of the s/c.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,172
Likes: 1,818
From: Bakersfield
Originally Posted by RYAN97812
Id take your motor too. Hell my 434 sbc has 11.75 to 1 and i was running it on 100 that i got from the sunoco i used to work for. that motor makes 654 hp and i drove it on the street for a while. But for my daily driver family car what is avalible is what i got. And your wrong about the throttle body for a roots style blower. The blower has an internal bypass valve which completely eliminates the air passing the blower. Look at a cobra motor wheres the tb? Where is it on a magna charger on an ls1-2. Turbo and centrifical need the tb on the pressure side but need a blow off valve or recirculating valve. I know i dont have to drive all day to reap the benifits but i am considering the cost of the aftercooler, tuning which isnt avalible at this time for our ecms, etc. It is a luxury sporty family car that is fun to drive with the edition of the s/c.
If you tried to run a front mount style intercooler, the TB would have to be on the pressure side or the drivability will suck. If you have it like a Cobra with the blower sitting directly on the intercooler, of course the TB will be before the blower. I have personally never seen a frontmount with a roots blower. If most of the power comes on in the upper rpm range, I would think they would be better off going centrifugal.
When the GN was my daily driver I ran it on 100LL from the airport which allowed ~23psi and made 602hp in that trim. When I had higher compression I could only run 14psi on that gas and it made nowhere near the power (butt dyno). Sure, I could've made more power with the higher compression IF I could find a gasoline with enough octane to run equal boost but such a gasoline doesn't exist.
Not in Low Lead. Im suprised that the av gas worked for you. The flash rate of that fuel isnt meant to be burned in a piston engine over 3000 rpm. I worked for sunoco and talked to their r&d guys for a while about race fuels and i asked them the differnce between av and the 100 unleaded we sold at the pump. Av gas is meant to be burned above 3000 ft and higher. But the biggest thing was that it wasnt meant for higher rpms nor compression. Aircraft piston engines run low compression n/a and less than 3k rpm most below 2500. Turbo piston aircraft engines run even less there almost 6 to 1.
I havent been talking about a front mount. Even though it is possible it would be dificult on our cars. And yes you would need to put the tb back on the intake for that. I thnk we were confused in the subject. You would need an aftercooler such as the ones that vortech offers. I just dont feel that it is worth it in my honest opinion. But then again opinions are like @$$holes, everyones got em and the all stink! LOL
Ive also contemplated running a small wet nitrous kit before the blower but then again this isnt my race car. Id much rather work on my race car and shoot for low single digits on spray. Ran 10.07 @ 135 n/a last year now ive put the plate kit back on and am hoping for 9.4s on 175 shot then ill swap the convertor in the car and spray a progressive 250- 300 shot and hope for 8.9s @ 150. I still need to do a chute everything else is done though.
GN's are fun. I had a neighbor at my old house that had two and a gnx. I watch one gn get stolen at 4 am. Ill never forget it either. We pulled my friends motor out of his mustang at 9 pm on a friday and worked through the night. At 4 am we see the gn go by thought nothing of it. Then the next day were setting the valves on the mustang and we see the cops at the neighbors. So curious george i am goes down there to find out the gn was for sale and two guys were coming from pennsylvania on sunday to look at it and the had directions to get there. Well they came the night before at roughly 4am and liked what they say and just took it. Didnt even leave a thank you. He never got it back.
I havent been talking about a front mount. Even though it is possible it would be dificult on our cars. And yes you would need to put the tb back on the intake for that. I thnk we were confused in the subject. You would need an aftercooler such as the ones that vortech offers. I just dont feel that it is worth it in my honest opinion. But then again opinions are like @$$holes, everyones got em and the all stink! LOL
Ive also contemplated running a small wet nitrous kit before the blower but then again this isnt my race car. Id much rather work on my race car and shoot for low single digits on spray. Ran 10.07 @ 135 n/a last year now ive put the plate kit back on and am hoping for 9.4s on 175 shot then ill swap the convertor in the car and spray a progressive 250- 300 shot and hope for 8.9s @ 150. I still need to do a chute everything else is done though.
GN's are fun. I had a neighbor at my old house that had two and a gnx. I watch one gn get stolen at 4 am. Ill never forget it either. We pulled my friends motor out of his mustang at 9 pm on a friday and worked through the night. At 4 am we see the gn go by thought nothing of it. Then the next day were setting the valves on the mustang and we see the cops at the neighbors. So curious george i am goes down there to find out the gn was for sale and two guys were coming from pennsylvania on sunday to look at it and the had directions to get there. Well they came the night before at roughly 4am and liked what they say and just took it. Didnt even leave a thank you. He never got it back.
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 147
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From: East Bay, CA.
Originally Posted by MichaelBenz
Thanks to both of you guys for expaining this out a little better for me. Not having been in the supercharged world before...this is kind of new territory for me! Wow....oddly enough...I was also out at Joe Demaree's today and they have about 6 Acuras and Hondas out in his garage...all turbocharged...and was fabricating cooling units for all of em......and they looked really nice too! I will talk to him about this issue.....while I was talking to him....he was working on a similar situation with an Acura that was turbocharged and had a hondata chip or something that he is able to hook into and tune.....same weird issue with surging and the car seeing "boost" that is not there...the ECU thinks there was boost at times when there is none present....and he was fighting reprogramming and dealing the the vendor/mfg to work though the issue. Kind of makes me wonder if he will be able to master OUR problem with this closed loop deal (after I get supercharger installed). Who knows...this guy definately knows his stuff! Plus he was an Acura Master Tech and Service Manager at one time for Acura too....only a plus for us!! Wouldnt it be a trip if he could work this out somehow?
Question....what type of cooling system should I be asking him about developing that will not rob boost from the supercharger? Let me know so I can enter into a conversation with him about it.....lets see what we can develop to smash this problem out!! This would be the guy who can do it for us! No kidding...I wish I could get a few other of you supercharged people out with me to talk with him.....but till then....help me out...what do I need to be asking him about developing cooling wise? He was BS'ing with me all the while tapping NOS ports and dealing with some AEM fuel management system he was bitching about mated to a chip system....
Again...what exactly do I need to talk to him about...intercooler, aftercooler, just what? And again...what will not result in a loss of power/boost? Or would the inherent benefit of the cooler air outweight any power loss? Or could we have different pulley milled to increase it back?
Found a good info page here I just read to eduate myself a bit....(I hate talking out of side of my neck not knowing what I am talking about!) This is lots of fun for me though....love to learn new things!!!!
http://www.coloradocobras.com/whippl...rger-heat.html
This site shows gives great overall explanations....both whipple and roots style covered. See menu to the right when you get there.
Question....what type of cooling system should I be asking him about developing that will not rob boost from the supercharger? Let me know so I can enter into a conversation with him about it.....lets see what we can develop to smash this problem out!! This would be the guy who can do it for us! No kidding...I wish I could get a few other of you supercharged people out with me to talk with him.....but till then....help me out...what do I need to be asking him about developing cooling wise? He was BS'ing with me all the while tapping NOS ports and dealing with some AEM fuel management system he was bitching about mated to a chip system....
Again...what exactly do I need to talk to him about...intercooler, aftercooler, just what? And again...what will not result in a loss of power/boost? Or would the inherent benefit of the cooler air outweight any power loss? Or could we have different pulley milled to increase it back?
Found a good info page here I just read to eduate myself a bit....(I hate talking out of side of my neck not knowing what I am talking about!) This is lots of fun for me though....love to learn new things!!!!
http://www.coloradocobras.com/whippl...rger-heat.html
This site shows gives great overall explanations....both whipple and roots style covered. See menu to the right when you get there.
MichaelBenz, that's a great article you found though it maybe a little too technical for the newcomer.
So, for the sake of argument, lets simplify everything.
As the article states, when air is compressed heat is generated, add to this, thermal heat transfer from the turbo or supercharger and the compressed air going to the engine is quite hot and hot air is thinner and less efficient leading to other potential bad things.
So, what is an Intercooler? Well, in the simplest term, an Intercooler is a device used to cool down the compressed air after it has left the turbo or supercharger and before it enters the engine creating a denser cooler charge.
There are 2 basic types:
1) Air to Air (the most common and simplest type but less efficient)
2) Air to Water (much more complicated but much more efficient)
Air to Air consists mainly of ducting from the "charger" to a radiator (heat exchanger) then ducting back to the intake manifold. The hot compressed air in the radiator transfers heat to cold air blowing through. Most radiators are mounted in the lower front grill because they need lots of cold airflow. Because most are located up front, they require long ducting which can contribute to “lag”. Airs to Air systems are less efficient in transferring heat, requiring them to use large radiators to effectively cool the compressed air.
Air to Water functions similar to the air-conditioner system in your car. It uses water to cool the compressed air the same way the air-conditioner system uses Freon to extract heat from the air going into the passenger compartment. As such, it is a much more complicated system, requiring a second radiator, plumbing for the water and a water pump. The upside is the radiators can be much smaller and the ducting much shorter thus making it easier to install in tight areas and the second radiator can be mounted almost anywhere there is sufficient cool airflow.
As some have said, an Intercooler is beneficial. But as far as Comptech, their system was designed for daily driving as an aftermarket mod for a stock TL in such a way as to not upset Acura and void the factory warranty. It was not designed primarily for blasting the 1/4-mile. If you don’t care about the warranty, then there is a lot more horsepower to be found. But you can’t just bolt on a smaller blower pulley and go from there. With more boost, you’ll need more fuel and reprogramming to take advantage of the additional gas.
For the older SC kits, Comptech sold a stage 2 kit which came with a smaller SC pulley, larger fuel injectors and a re-flash for the ECM. Unfortunately, I believe installation of the Stage 2 kit voided all warranties, both Acura’s and Comptech’s.
I know I’ll probably get flamed for the following, but here goes.
Now remember, I’m talking about a “stock” cars on warranty, geared for gas economy and must pass regular smog tests.
For daily driving, overall, I would go with the SC. The need to keep the RPMs up to create sufficient boost and eliminate the “lag” associated to turbo’s spool-up can cut into the gas mileage and longevity of the drive train. Whereas the SC develops positive boost from idle all the way through the power band and in daily driving situations, is much more responsive and produces more usable toque at lower RPMs. This is especially true for the 5AT cars. Just look at some of the dyno graphs that have been posted on this forum, flat torque curve to red line with the SC.
Now in the case of front wheel drive and the ¼ mile, I would go with the Turbo! As the boost is progressive, it can be tailored for a good launch them come on stronger as the car is in motion and more traction is available.
Lastly, I see we’re talking about methanol/water injector. This can substantially reduce the intake charge temperature and increase the octane of the fuel. This in turn allows you to run more boost, but as quoted by ERL, “The main function of these systems is to suppress detonation (ping, knock) caused by high temperature and pressure developed within the combustion chamber when the effective compression ratio has been taken beyond the auto-ignition point by either a turbo or a supercharger.” In the case of the Comptech SC, this point is not reached and the boost is limited by RPM (pulley size). While injector systems works for the ¼ mile on high boost cars, it is not sustainable i.e. like nitrous oxide, for road type racing (the twisties).
In the end, Comptech’s SC is the only known system providing this kind of performance gain at this price while being 50 state CARB legal and Acura approved. Any other setup and you may find yourself on your own and while Acura has to show how an aftermarket mod contributed to a failure before denying warranty work, to avoid any complications, dealers can choose to not service you. It has happened to others I know.
Just my 2 Cents!
Originally Posted by CAHobbs
MichaelBenz, that's a great article you found though it maybe a little too technical for the newcomer.
So, for the sake of argument, lets simplify everything.
I was thinking about supercharging before this upcoming event here in Indiana (http://www.wingedwarrior.net) - let me ask you.....would this added supercharger be somewhat problematic in a few of these events....would I be better to remain without until after this event? I was thinking that possibly it might be better to wait, given I am sure there is a "learning curb" to some degree getting the most out of it and meshing it with your driving style....what do you think? Definately do...or hold off?
Here is a description of events: http://www.wingedwarrior.net/Regulations.html
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,172
Likes: 1,818
From: Bakersfield
Originally Posted by RYAN97812
Not in Low Lead. Im suprised that the av gas worked for you. The flash rate of that fuel isnt meant to be burned in a piston engine over 3000 rpm. I worked for sunoco and talked to their r&d guys for a while about race fuels and i asked them the differnce between av and the 100 unleaded we sold at the pump. Av gas is meant to be burned above 3000 ft and higher. But the biggest thing was that it wasnt meant for higher rpms nor compression. Aircraft piston engines run low compression n/a and less than 3k rpm most below 2500. Turbo piston aircraft engines run even less there almost 6 to 1.
I havent been talking about a front mount. Even though it is possible it would be dificult on our cars. And yes you would need to put the tb back on the intake for that. I thnk we were confused in the subject. You would need an aftercooler such as the ones that vortech offers. I just dont feel that it is worth it in my honest opinion. But then again opinions are like @$$holes, everyones got em and the all stink! LOL
Ive also contemplated running a small wet nitrous kit before the blower but then again this isnt my race car. Id much rather work on my race car and shoot for low single digits on spray. Ran 10.07 @ 135 n/a last year now ive put the plate kit back on and am hoping for 9.4s on 175 shot then ill swap the convertor in the car and spray a progressive 250- 300 shot and hope for 8.9s @ 150. I still need to do a chute everything else is done though.
GN's are fun. I had a neighbor at my old house that had two and a gnx. I watch one gn get stolen at 4 am. Ill never forget it either. We pulled my friends motor out of his mustang at 9 pm on a friday and worked through the night. At 4 am we see the gn go by thought nothing of it. Then the next day were setting the valves on the mustang and we see the cops at the neighbors. So curious george i am goes down there to find out the gn was for sale and two guys were coming from pennsylvania on sunday to look at it and the had directions to get there. Well they came the night before at roughly 4am and liked what they say and just took it. Didnt even leave a thank you. He never got it back.
I havent been talking about a front mount. Even though it is possible it would be dificult on our cars. And yes you would need to put the tb back on the intake for that. I thnk we were confused in the subject. You would need an aftercooler such as the ones that vortech offers. I just dont feel that it is worth it in my honest opinion. But then again opinions are like @$$holes, everyones got em and the all stink! LOL
Ive also contemplated running a small wet nitrous kit before the blower but then again this isnt my race car. Id much rather work on my race car and shoot for low single digits on spray. Ran 10.07 @ 135 n/a last year now ive put the plate kit back on and am hoping for 9.4s on 175 shot then ill swap the convertor in the car and spray a progressive 250- 300 shot and hope for 8.9s @ 150. I still need to do a chute everything else is done though.
GN's are fun. I had a neighbor at my old house that had two and a gnx. I watch one gn get stolen at 4 am. Ill never forget it either. We pulled my friends motor out of his mustang at 9 pm on a friday and worked through the night. At 4 am we see the gn go by thought nothing of it. Then the next day were setting the valves on the mustang and we see the cops at the neighbors. So curious george i am goes down there to find out the gn was for sale and two guys were coming from pennsylvania on sunday to look at it and the had directions to get there. Well they came the night before at roughly 4am and liked what they say and just took it. Didnt even leave a thank you. He never got it back.
With the 100LL, it might've worked because I rarely shifted above 4,900 rpm on the street. For the track it was always C-16 for my super high 5,600rpm shifts lol.
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
From: East Bay, CA.
Originally Posted by MichaelBenz
Thanks Hobbs! Much appreciated!! I am not new to automotives, but AM new to the superchargers and the ins and outs....so I was able to follow the technical jargon to a great degree.....but your summation really does help to answer a few questions I had afterwards...thats for sure!! Thanks man! Thats what I like about this site.....I can just keep on learning! Knowledge whore here!! lol
I was thinking about supercharging before this upcoming event here in Indiana (http://www.wingedwarrior.net) - let me ask you.....would this added supercharger be somewhat problematic in a few of these events....would I be better to remain without until after this event? I was thinking that possibly it might be better to wait, given I am sure there is a "learning curb" to some degree getting the most out of it and meshing it with your driving style....what do you think? Definately do...or hold off?
Here is a description of events: http://www.wingedwarrior.net/Regulations.html
I was thinking about supercharging before this upcoming event here in Indiana (http://www.wingedwarrior.net) - let me ask you.....would this added supercharger be somewhat problematic in a few of these events....would I be better to remain without until after this event? I was thinking that possibly it might be better to wait, given I am sure there is a "learning curb" to some degree getting the most out of it and meshing it with your driving style....what do you think? Definately do...or hold off?
Here is a description of events: http://www.wingedwarrior.net/Regulations.html
As for the “The Winged Warrior Performance Challenge”, based on the listed mods you’ve done on your TL, I would recommend a brake system upgrade (Brembo or Stoptech) for this event before getting the SC.
To the point, there is no advantage having the SC on the slalom course, 100 –0mph or the skid pad of course, but for the Drag race and even the Autocourse it can definitely help. You would need to relearn how to launch the TL with the SC as finding traction in the low gears isn’t easy! As for the Autocourse, depending on how tight the course is you would have to find the balance between the SC’s harder acceleration and your corner entrance speeds. A tight course could put more strain on your brakes than they can handle since it wouldn’t allow enough time between corners for the brakes to cool down enough, especially with your “A-Spec Scorched Brake Pads”! This can still happen without the SC!
For day to day driving I still recommend the Comptech SC. As for how the SC will blend with your driving style really depends on how you drive. I myself am more into Road racing than Drag racing. Don't get me wrong, I still like to drop the pedal off the line with the right challenge but I still prefer to blast through the twisties!
So My TL is setup more for the twisties and out here in California we have a lot of those! What I can tell you about the SC is my corning speeds are about the same because, as you know, this is more of a function of the suspension, brakes, weight and tires than engine power. Overall thou my time is down because I can accelerate harder out of the turns and get to the next corner faster. So, with the SC I am faster but I am really putting the brakes through hell so the next upgrade for the TL will be a "big" brake kit too.
Don't forget to get some pics for us when you go to the Performance Challenge and just have fun!
The Boss
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,375
Likes: 0
From: New Jack City
Originally Posted by TL-CrAzIe-05
Where are you guys mounting the boost and air/fuel ratio gauges??? Thanks. Pics would be even better.
thank you
Originally Posted by AcuraDriver2006
I've been lurking for awhile. I am only interested in S/C stuff and I found this thread extremely helpful. However, I am currently in NJ and need to find out about "where" can I find a decent installer for the S/C kit. The reason I haven't bought one is because I haven't found a good place that can install a S/C correctly. Those of you who live in NJ and have already installed the Comptech S/C Kit, please PM me.
thank you
thank you
2 Industrial Drive
Unit G
Cliffwood Beach, NJ
732-290-7800
They have worked on a lot of members cars and have developed the pro cat system for our cars as well. Ask for Mike or Wayne and tell em Michael Benz sent ya!
Import and Domestic owner
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 879
Likes: 0
From: Atlantic City NJ
Originally Posted by AcuraDriver2006
I've been lurking for awhile. I am only interested in S/C stuff and I found this thread extremely helpful. However, I am currently in NJ and need to find out about "where" can I find a decent installer for the S/C kit. The reason I haven't bought one is because I haven't found a good place that can install a S/C correctly. Those of you who live in NJ and have already installed the Comptech S/C Kit, please PM me.
thank you
thank you
The Boss
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,375
Likes: 0
From: New Jack City
Originally Posted by againstallodds1
Im having Ryan97812 do mine, I seen his work on his TL he did the install of the supercharger and A-Spec and he did a very good job. He took me for a ride in his car yesterday, the supercharger ran great. He will see your post and give you more info, he is a very good guy.
Michael, I called ESP. They quoted me for $600 which is fairly inexpensive comparing to the shop near me who quoted $1100.
Originally Posted by AcuraDriver2006
^ thank you very much to both of you MichaelBenz and againstallodds1. I will get in touch with Ryan for more information.
Michael, I called ESP. They quoted me for $600 which is fairly inexpensive comparing to the shop near me who quoted $1100.
Michael, I called ESP. They quoted me for $600 which is fairly inexpensive comparing to the shop near me who quoted $1100.
The Boss
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,375
Likes: 0
From: New Jack City
Originally Posted by MichaelBenz
Given their abilities with our motors....I would highly recommend them! Not to mention...they have a dyno right there to do a before and after if you wish!!
1) Will this new modification pass state of inspection? I assume it's 50 state legal?
2) Will it be needed with Comptech S/C kit installed?
3) Does it really gain much torque or HP?
Michael, I think my first choice would be Ryan. I sent him a PM to request checking out his car and talk to him before things get finalized. He seems like a really cool guy. If that fails, I'll go with ESP.
thanks for the help guys. This section is really answers alot of my questions without me asking them
Personally...I would go with whoever is closest...and then factor in if they actually had a commercial location to stand behind their work. BUT...a good mechanic with proper credentials CAN make a good amt of money out of their own garage and probably SHOULD given what half these shops pay em! So I am not knocking this route either...!! I do not know Ryan so I cannot speak whatsoever about him....sounds like he does good work though from what others have said.
Revised...
Ahhh.....I just got who you are talking about. You mean the Ryan ^^^....OK....ya...I would say ANY of these guys could handle that one!! I didnt put two and two together there......these guys know their superchargers man!
Revised...
Ahhh.....I just got who you are talking about. You mean the Ryan ^^^....OK....ya...I would say ANY of these guys could handle that one!! I didnt put two and two together there......these guys know their superchargers man!
Thread Starter
321 whp SAE
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,090
Likes: 0
From: Matawan, NJ
Originally Posted by AcuraDriver2006
Question for MichaelBenz or anyone who has pro-Cats.
1) Will this new modification pass state of inspection? I assume it's 50 state legal?
2) Will it be needed with Comptech S/C kit installed?
3) Does it really gain much torque or HP?
Michael, I think my first choice would be Ryan. I sent him a PM to request checking out his car and talk to him before things get finalized. He seems like a really cool guy. If that fails, I'll go with ESP.
thanks for the help guys. This section is really answers alot of my questions without me asking them
1) Will this new modification pass state of inspection? I assume it's 50 state legal?
2) Will it be needed with Comptech S/C kit installed?
3) Does it really gain much torque or HP?
Michael, I think my first choice would be Ryan. I sent him a PM to request checking out his car and talk to him before things get finalized. He seems like a really cool guy. If that fails, I'll go with ESP.
thanks for the help guys. This section is really answers alot of my questions without me asking them
The Boss
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,375
Likes: 0
From: New Jack City
Thanks for your input bklynpanman. I think for around $1100 and min gain, it's a bit too steep for me.
MichaelBenz, I was referring to "Ryan97812." A few members from here recommended me to him. So we'll see how everything works out. So far he has not responded to my request since this afternoon. Perhaps he's busy like myself, but will be waiting for his call.
Ryan, please get in touch with me, you can reach me on the number that I pm'd you. Thanks.
MichaelBenz, I was referring to "Ryan97812." A few members from here recommended me to him. So we'll see how everything works out. So far he has not responded to my request since this afternoon. Perhaps he's busy like myself, but will be waiting for his call.
Ryan, please get in touch with me, you can reach me on the number that I pm'd you. Thanks.
Racer
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 410
Likes: 18
From: Seattle
Similar Surging Issue Fixed w/ Split Second ESC1
It looks like the ECU closed-loop rich-lean-rich problem isn't that uncommon. Checkout the writeup of how this guy fixed his SC surging issue on his 4Runner TRD SC.
http://www.gadgetonline.com/Fuel.htm...Second%20ESC1:
Wonder if there's anything similar for the TL?
With the larger injectors and the Split Second (SS) ARC2 controller I have solved my top end fuel delivery problems. There was still one spot in the power band I was not happy with. That was part throttle acceleration under boost. In this region I felt that the engine just was not producing the power it should and there was a constant surging.
I figured out what was causing the surging as soon as I installed my SS air/fuel ratio gauge (ARM1). It is from the ECU operating in "closed loop" operation. In closed loop operation the ECU it constantly adjusting the fuel mixture to try to find the "ideal" mixture. The mixture is being varied from rich to lean, then back to rich. This cycle takes about a second to complete. When it is on the rich side there is more power, when on the lean side there is less. So it presents as surging in power. More proof that this engine control system was not intended to support an aftermarket supercharger.
At full throttle the ECU switches into "open loop" operation and it is no longer cycling the mixture. It switches over and uses the full throttle fuel map, which is richer then cruise power and it makes more power. It would also switch into open loop if I continued to accelerate in 3rd gear for about seven seconds or more. As soon as it would switch into open loop the surging would disappear and there would be a noticeable jump in power.
I found I could adjust my SS ARC2 so that it would be real rich in the mid range while acceleration under boost with part throttle. This would cause the ECU to switch into open loop and would run nice in this narrow range, but would throw everything else way out of adjustment. I knew what had to be done, just not how to do it. I started making calls and spoke to Eric at SS. He said that they had just the thing I needed, the ESC1.
The ESC1 is a signal conditioner. They make a few different ones that modify the signal from the sensors to the ECU. This one modifies the signal from the front O2 sensor. Under boost it modifies the signal from the O2 sensor to the ECU causing the ECU to switch into open loop.
There are 4 wires that get spliced into the ECU harness, and a vacuum line that is connected to the boost port. I found that the connections have to be made behind at the ECU, which it located behind the glove box. The O2 sensor wires are shielded in the engine compartment to prevent interference so you can not make the connections there. I originally installed the ESC1 behind the glove compartment. I had a loud buzz under boost. It turned out to be whine from the supercharger traveling up the vacuum line. I then followed a friends lead and installed the ESC1 on the firewall next to the wiper motor.
I went for a test drive and found out right away, this thing is great! Shortly after going into boost the ECU kicks into open loop and I now have so much more power then I did before at the lower boost levels. The surging is GONE. Now for the very first time my supercharger feels like a factory installed unit. It is very smooth and very torquey at lower boost levels. It is amazing what just a tad more fuel will do for the drivability of the supercharger.
I live off of a long country highway with lots of hills. Using the cruise control was impossible due to all the downshifting. The installation of the supercharger made that a lot better, but it still down shifted more then I liked. Now with the SS ESC1 the engine makes so much more torque at highway speeds it no longer down shifts. It climbs the same hills with 2-3 PSI less boost then before. It is interesting to watch the boost gauge suddenly drop 2-3 PSI as soon as the ECU transitions into open loop.
I find that I can pass the slow pokes hogging the left lane and that are too rude to move over without down shifting. I just ease in the throttle and get lots of torque and I can add 20 MPH without down shifting so fast it feels like I have a 350 in it.
So, the SS ESC1 gets my seal of approval. It works and does exactly what SS says it will do. The ESC1 will work on all O2 sensor equipped trucks from 95-98. Starting in 99 Toyota started using an wide band O2 sensor on some truck and the ESC1 is not compatible with that sensor. Still some trucks were equipped with the old style O2 sensor, but there is no boost induced power surging on the 99 and later trucks so I do not recommend using the ESC1 on anything newer then 98.
http://www.gadgetonline.com/Fuel.htm...Second%20ESC1:
Wonder if there's anything similar for the TL?
With the larger injectors and the Split Second (SS) ARC2 controller I have solved my top end fuel delivery problems. There was still one spot in the power band I was not happy with. That was part throttle acceleration under boost. In this region I felt that the engine just was not producing the power it should and there was a constant surging.
I figured out what was causing the surging as soon as I installed my SS air/fuel ratio gauge (ARM1). It is from the ECU operating in "closed loop" operation. In closed loop operation the ECU it constantly adjusting the fuel mixture to try to find the "ideal" mixture. The mixture is being varied from rich to lean, then back to rich. This cycle takes about a second to complete. When it is on the rich side there is more power, when on the lean side there is less. So it presents as surging in power. More proof that this engine control system was not intended to support an aftermarket supercharger.
At full throttle the ECU switches into "open loop" operation and it is no longer cycling the mixture. It switches over and uses the full throttle fuel map, which is richer then cruise power and it makes more power. It would also switch into open loop if I continued to accelerate in 3rd gear for about seven seconds or more. As soon as it would switch into open loop the surging would disappear and there would be a noticeable jump in power.
I found I could adjust my SS ARC2 so that it would be real rich in the mid range while acceleration under boost with part throttle. This would cause the ECU to switch into open loop and would run nice in this narrow range, but would throw everything else way out of adjustment. I knew what had to be done, just not how to do it. I started making calls and spoke to Eric at SS. He said that they had just the thing I needed, the ESC1.
The ESC1 is a signal conditioner. They make a few different ones that modify the signal from the sensors to the ECU. This one modifies the signal from the front O2 sensor. Under boost it modifies the signal from the O2 sensor to the ECU causing the ECU to switch into open loop.
There are 4 wires that get spliced into the ECU harness, and a vacuum line that is connected to the boost port. I found that the connections have to be made behind at the ECU, which it located behind the glove box. The O2 sensor wires are shielded in the engine compartment to prevent interference so you can not make the connections there. I originally installed the ESC1 behind the glove compartment. I had a loud buzz under boost. It turned out to be whine from the supercharger traveling up the vacuum line. I then followed a friends lead and installed the ESC1 on the firewall next to the wiper motor.
I went for a test drive and found out right away, this thing is great! Shortly after going into boost the ECU kicks into open loop and I now have so much more power then I did before at the lower boost levels. The surging is GONE. Now for the very first time my supercharger feels like a factory installed unit. It is very smooth and very torquey at lower boost levels. It is amazing what just a tad more fuel will do for the drivability of the supercharger.
I live off of a long country highway with lots of hills. Using the cruise control was impossible due to all the downshifting. The installation of the supercharger made that a lot better, but it still down shifted more then I liked. Now with the SS ESC1 the engine makes so much more torque at highway speeds it no longer down shifts. It climbs the same hills with 2-3 PSI less boost then before. It is interesting to watch the boost gauge suddenly drop 2-3 PSI as soon as the ECU transitions into open loop.
I find that I can pass the slow pokes hogging the left lane and that are too rude to move over without down shifting. I just ease in the throttle and get lots of torque and I can add 20 MPH without down shifting so fast it feels like I have a 350 in it.
So, the SS ESC1 gets my seal of approval. It works and does exactly what SS says it will do. The ESC1 will work on all O2 sensor equipped trucks from 95-98. Starting in 99 Toyota started using an wide band O2 sensor on some truck and the ESC1 is not compatible with that sensor. Still some trucks were equipped with the old style O2 sensor, but there is no boost induced power surging on the 99 and later trucks so I do not recommend using the ESC1 on anything newer then 98.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 874
Likes: 0
From: south jersey
Originally Posted by bklynpanman
on my supercharged.. the pro cats only bought me +12 hp and 7 torque.. not a good bang for the buck in my case.. but who knows
The Boss
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,375
Likes: 0
From: New Jack City
^ perhaps maybe the weather was really hot today? it's about 82 in jersey. The surging was pretty severe today. Kinda jerked the car alittle around 1st and 2nd gear... does this happen to any of you? Let me know, just curious
thanks
thanks
Thread Starter
321 whp SAE
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,090
Likes: 0
From: Matawan, NJ
absolutely.. it will always jerk at partial throttle as soon as it enters boost.. in ANY gear.. even 6th.. you are right.. not THAT big of a deal.. but can be annoying sometimes. i've learned to avoid it..
B A N N E D
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 976
Likes: 0
From: vancouver, BC
So it seems the jerking issue is due to the ECU adjusting the air / fuel ratio while it stays in close loop as the supercharger is slowly building boost. That's why it happens in any gear because it is depedent on boost.
If that is really the case, then maybe this product could really help the jerking issue.
http://www.urdusa.com/product_info.p...611616c39ded55
It bascailly modifies the signal coming from the O2 sensor. Whenever it sense boost, it will trick the ECU into open loop mode. That way the jerking should be eliminated.
Anyone gave this a try?
If that is really the case, then maybe this product could really help the jerking issue.
http://www.urdusa.com/product_info.p...611616c39ded55
It bascailly modifies the signal coming from the O2 sensor. Whenever it sense boost, it will trick the ECU into open loop mode. That way the jerking should be eliminated.
Anyone gave this a try?
B A N N E D
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 976
Likes: 0
From: vancouver, BC
For those of you that have the supercharger, what do you guys use to adjust the A/F ratio, fuel map, etc to fine tune the engine with the SC ?
I already have the AEM UEGO wideband AF gauge, i was wondering if I need piggybacks like the E-manage or the VFAC.
I already have the AEM UEGO wideband AF gauge, i was wondering if I need piggybacks like the E-manage or the VFAC.
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