I hate cars

So I got my H6 pads in today. Stock pads with the BBK are H2s.

I'm limited on time right now so I'll give a brief overview and get into more detail later.

First I have to say thanks to Excelerate. I owe him a lot. He went above and beyond what is expected of any vendor to help me out. Anyone looking for a good vendor, good person, and outstanding customer service, he's highly recommended.

First impressions.... They're not bedded in yet so take that into consideration.

They're quieter than the H2 pads, the "airplane" sound due to the holes and slots is half as loud now. This may be due to the fact that my H2s were as close to metal to metal as you can possibly be without actually being metal to metal. Another 20 miles and I would have been buying rotors too. So I'm not sure if it's the compound or the fact that there's 20 times as much pad material now.

Linear.. With the H2 pads, initial bite was always good but as you were going through a stop, they would bite better and better. If you wanted a linear stop, you let off the brake pedal just a little as the pads heated up. Not so with the H6. They're consistant all the way through a 120-0 stop. Pedal feel does not change.

I looked up the friction coefficient of each pad and it makes sense now. The H2 is rated at .25 cold to .5 hot. The H6 is .44-.55. In other words, the H6 feel about the same hot or cold with more bite in all temps.

No noise whatsoever. I had planned on squeeking from a track pad, at least until they were broken in. None.

Pedal feel seems a little better, probably due to the consistent friction coefficient.

These should last much longer than the H2s. They are good to 1,220F vs 932F for the H2 so if you fade these things you're doing something wrong.

Other than the price, these should come stock.

I'm going to bed them in and do another review tomorrow.

binhsterbinh

.44-.55 is great streetable pad coefficients. Are you still going with EBC Yellowstuff for the rear to alter the balance slightly? I am still waiting to see if we'll have more affordable options to the rear BBK setup than the $1500 Rotora setup.

I currently have Yellowstuff (4000R) installed in the RL calipers along with OEM ceramic rears. Despite what the Yellowstuff marketing says, they do take a few stops to warm on cold mornings or after getting off the highway into the city(50-60 degrees F ambient). I usually ease into it gently when approaching my first stop after the highway and they're then good to go.

Inaccurate

Thanks for first-hand review IHC !

I will probably need to do my first brake job on my 2006 TL this winter. So, I am looking for what would be best for my usage. From you review and explanations, it sounds like these Rotora H6 pads are ideal.

Are there any Rotora H6 pads made to fit the oem Base TL? If I get the RacingBrake two-piece front rotors, would these Rotora H6 pads be a good match?

I hate cars

I think they would be. However, I'm going to put some serious heat in them after work today so I'll have a better idea of how they hold up under hard use. Although at your weight you might have a hard time getting them warm.

I want to say Rotora makes these pads for stock brakes too. But the BBK is so much lighter than stock brakes......

Inaccurate

Right about my lightweight. It was the good initial bite that you mentioned that caught my interest. I want a pad that is very aggressive with little warm-up. But at the same time, I want the pad to have great fade resistance when hot.

"But the BBK is so much lighter than stock brakes......"
you sure do know my weakness

I hate cars

I forgot to mention, I paid close attention to the very first stop of the morning. Full power is there right away. I was worried about a track pad not biting for the first couple stops but they're fine. Where the H2s had a slight squeek on the first stop of the day, these had none.

However, I noticed after a 30 minute drive, there was light squeeking at low speeds coming up to a stop sign in stop and go.

Since they're not bedded in, a lot of the info I've posted is useless.

I hate cars

It's something like 7lbs per front corner and a little less per rear..... More if you do the 2pc. You know you want to do it...

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Just a heads up, this is our new replacement pad for the RP.04.1, that IHC was referring to:

http://store.excelerateperformance.c.../i-395170.aspx

I hate cars

Well, I almost got them bedded in. On the drive home I did several 120-30mph stops.

The squeek is gone.

The feel is roughly the same as before bedding them in.

These definately give better modulation.

ABS feels different. Maybe because of the different friction compound, I don't know. It's more of a constant screech from the tires and not as much on/off that I hated. If you hear the car stopping, it sounds like a car with the wheels locked up but they're still turning.

I did not finish bedding them in because my rears were smoking pretty bad and I didn't want to ruin them before I get the EBC Yellows in there.

During the 120mph stops, the Nittos started warming up and by the 3rd stop, they were really sticking. These brakes have no problems whatsoever of triggering ABS but without being grabby.

I've always thought pedal feel is a function of hydrualics, maybe the pedal itself, caliper (specifically caliper stiffness), and rotor and pad material. I've never had a pad make the pedal feel firmer before. It could be that I don't have to hit the pedal quite as hard as before making it feel firmer.

I don't want to give the wrong impression, my mother's Camry has grabby brakes but require much more pressure to stop hard. These are far from grabby but stopping is effortless. Modulation is so good it feels like your foot is connected straight to the rotor.

There's not much of a "sweet spot" as far as temperature goes. They get just a little more powerful as they get heat in them but you really have to be paying attention. It's not something most people would notice.

So as of now, we have a pad that will take 1,300F, full stopping power from the first cold stop, and has no noise.

The only thing I'm waiting to see is how they dust. Usually pads like this dust very, very little but time will tell and I have to wash the old dust off the rims first.

turbocivic94

very good review

Inaccurate

Sounds like my dream pads

I hate cars

I was a little too quick to praise them as the best pad ever.

They squeeked with every stop this morning. It's not bad, you can't hear it with the windows up but it's there everytime I stop. I usually ride the vanpool to work and as I was getting in the van everyone had to inform me in a not so nice way that my brakes were squeeking.

It's almost a relief because I've never heard of a true track pad that does not squeek at street temps. Supposedly these are comparable to the Hawk Blue pad but slightly more aggressive.

Just for everyone else, these are supposed to be a track pad, not a street/track pad so there's nothing wrong with them, it's just the nature of a pad like this.

I won't comment about the noise again until a couple weeks have gone by.

I plan on getting a TON of data this weekend on front and rear bias and non ABS stopping vs ABS stopping as well as a ton of rotor and caliper temp data.

Basically going to disable the ABS and do some hard stops to find out which end locks first which I'm sure will be the front. Then I'm doing the J-turn test with hard braking and ABS disabled to see how far I can push the rear bias without the car getting unstable. I have another set of rear pads with a .55 friction coefficient vs the .45 that I have on there now. I'll do the same thing when I get the EBC Yellows with the .6 coefficient.

I hate cars

Still doing the Yellows in the rear. Thanks for letting me know they don't grab well when cold. Do you think it just takes a single easy stop to get them to full power or would it take more?

My biggest fear is going down the freeway for hours on end with cold pads and having an emergency and waiting a couple seconds for the rears to come up to temp before they grab. Obviously the fronts do most of the stopping but the rears will have a fair amount of impact on stopping distances.

I wonder if I'm better off leaving it the way it is until I can afford a Rotora rear kit... I'm worried the higher friction will put the rears upwards of 1,200F under track conditions.

Inaccurate

Sounds like just another typical day of rush-hour commuting

I hate cars

Isn't that the truth.

Part of me wants to get it as close to neutral as possible. But I have to keep in mind real life and the fact that occasionally the GF drives it. I don't mind the rear end kicking out when playing around but it would not be fun on the LA freeways when braking and swerving around people. Got to leave a little front bias or room for error.

Inaccurate

In addition to testing with the ABS on/off, perhaps also test with VSA on/off to see how much the VSA tries to correct for the tailend swinging out.

I hate cars

That's something I can't wait to try. I've been over on the EVO forums and the extra braking power of the BBK causes massive problems with their VSA (whatever their version is called). Apparently it causes the computer to lock whichever rear wheel it's trying to modulate to control a slide. It's kind of comical that the VSA causes spins.

I only wish I could afford a camera to record some of this.

binhsterbinh

Early morning temps have been in the low 50's lately. I'm usually easy on the brakes in the morning and it hasn't been an issue. I'd say it takes about 2 average 35mph to zero stop before they're feel like they're in optimal operating range. I'm definitely more careful coming out of my parallel parking spot in the morning during the winter (~30-40 degrees). They don't bite well when I'm trying to creep forward to get out of my spot when it's cold.

I drive mostly highway for my commute and getting off the highway and stopping definitely requires more pedal effort for the first stop and stopping from 50mph to zero at an abrupt last minute red stop light has me crossing the white line slightly on firm 70% pressure. This is my main gripe about Yellowstuff. When they're cold, they're comparable to a cheap set of pads from Car Quest. They'll stop but expect to give it some effort initially. Then after a few stops, they're awesome.

I'm considering Racing Brake rear rotors with ET500 pads for my personal rear upgrade, but all this talk about possibly taking advantage of a larger rear rotor from a different vehicle has me holding out still. I'm guessing that simply transition to more aggressive rear pads would help my situation greatly in itself. I'd like really like to use a larger size rotor to increase the rear bias to bring it up to par with my front RL calipers. The stock rear rotors are 9mm thick. I'm not sure how much thicker of a rear rotor will clear the stock calipers though (perhaps 12-14mm thickness?). At this point, I'm not ready to drop $1500 on a Rear BBK.

Inaccurate

I am sure that you are aware of this, but just checking.

When you test the VSA, you would need to test with the ABS unit powered-up. I think that the VSA uses the ABS unit to perform it’s VSA magic.

Inaccurate

Call a friend out for a peaceful Sunday drive to ride shotgun..... and tell them to bring their video camera

..........
You ..... Friend

"Hold-on and just keep recording !!!"

I hate cars

LOL. My poor GF. I've tricked her into this scenario several times. No wonder she hates me. I even convinced my then 71yr old Grandmother (RIP) to go to the store with me in the GN and somehow my foot slipped on the gas. The parents were actually mad that time.

4 day update, some random squeeking but very rare. It's always on the same exact stop sign. Does not matter how hot they are or how long I've been driving, they squeek at the same intersection everytime but no where else.

Braking power is up. I had to adjust my braking style. These things are almost too much for a street tire. Not grabby but extremely powerful once broken in. When my NT05s are cold I've accidentally hit ABS on a harder than normal stop. Especially on non performance all seasons, I probably would not use these pads unless you're ready to adjust braking style.

I'm adjusting now but I've tended to brake later and harder than normal and it's not good for other drivers behind me when most people only stare at the car in front and not the redlight 500' in front. I've had some people come up on me pretty hard.

The part I can't figure out is the friction coefficient is only supposed to be .05 different when hot. I've never experimented before but I did not expect to be able to tell the difference.

Inaccurate

Wow. This is wild. Twilight Zone stuff.

I WANT !!!

I am very aware of this issue. With the Diet, I love to feel my braking power. But, I only enjoy it when I know no one is behind me. All other times, I leave a 2-3 car length following distance with the car in front of me. Not because I need the space to stop... because I don't trust the person behind me.

There have been a few times when I did apply my brakes moderately hard... or I thought moderately. I look in my rearview mirror and see the car behind me taking a bee-line for the emergency lane because they know they can't stop in time. This has happened several times. I consider it as a friendly reminder to myself that my car is in a separate class than the folks around me. This is one form of racing (braking contest) that I don't want to win. My trophy would be a smashed rearend.

After these four additional days of evaluation, do you still consider the pads to provide nearly same braking from cold versus hot? The pads offer full braking power when stone cold (first braking episode)?

THANKS IHC

I hate cars

They have very close to full power stone cold, the first stop of the morning which is after about 20' of driving. Of couse around here stone cold at 5AM is 77F. I have to assume that if they grab this well in the 70s, they *should* be good to go for the relatively mild 32+ winters but we'll see.

I would say they have 90% of their full power when stone cold. It's close enough that I don't notice unless I really pay attention. The old pads always reminded me of the change in mu anytime I did a stop from 60mph or above.

I was going to do a bunch of testing but I got sick. I drove to the store with the GF and could not get them to make any noise....until I pulled up to a busy intersection with cars all around. They squeeked once at very light pedal pressure at about 5mph. I could not reproduce the sound after playing with pedal pressure and speeds. However, when they make noise, they really make noise.

When I get a chance to do the testing, I'll try and get the rotor temps up past 800F and see if my opinion changes. It just feels like I'm abusing the car when I'm purposely trying to heat up the brakes vs playing around or doing it on the track.

I would LOVE to know what rotor and caliper temps your lightweight runs under different scenarios. I would bet that temps are at least as low as my full weight car with the 13" BBK.

Inaccurate

Thanks for the reply IHC.

I can get some temps for you. I often feel my rotors with my finger after commuting to see how hot they are… just out of curiosity.

I know that the rotors temps depend heavily on the weather. The rotors are too hot to touch for more than a second when the weather is 100* F. On 80* days, the rotors are only slightly warm. On cool and colds days, the rotors are cool when I touch them.

So if we compare rotors temps, we need to take note of what the weather temp is too.

How do we quantify the amount of braking that has lead-up to the recorded temps? With cold rotors, do a 60-0 braking and jump out to take the temp?

I hate cars

Most of my data points are 60-0 just at the ABS threshold. I do have data from 80 and 120mph too but not as much.

I think I have up to 5 consecutive hard stops from 60mph. I'm not sure how that will work out since your brakes won't have to shed as many BTUs for the same stopping but your car will get back up to 60mph much quicker, not giving the brakes as much cool down time.

Maybe we can do a single stop from different speeds... Or we can do a 10 second interval between stops so the acceleration difference does not come into play.

Agreed on the weather conditions. So far I've noticed that rotor temps seem to have a non linear relationship to ambient temps. In the beginning I did a ton of "average" braking and got temps. This was the standard drive home driving completely normal in stop and go. I noticed in the cooler months the rotors may run only 50 degrees hotter than ambient. In the hotter months I see a solid 100+ degrees difference. Maybe it's the radiant heat from the asphalt, I can't explain it.

The other test I've never done but always wanted to was to take rotor temps dead cold and then take it out on the highway for 30 minutes without using the brakes. I want to come to a slow stop using downshifting and the e-brake and shoot temps again. I've always been curious how much heat is produced just from the slight drag of the pads to rotors. I'm sure it's extremely low and may not show up. This is the one thing I never did when I had the stock brakes up front.

I hate cars

I thought I would bring this up now that the pads have seen some high 50 degree days.

90% of full power seems to be there. I need more time to see if they were missing just a little grab on the first application in the morning. There was one time exiting the freeway where I wasn't sure if they were at full power. I did get on them hard enough to invoke ABS for a split second when exiting the freeway just to make sure the power was there but it may have taken just a little more effort. Even if they're missing a little power at 50 degrees, I have to sit here and wonder so it's not bad at all.

The squeaking is incredible somedays and sometimes it's non-existant.

During the SoCal caravan to Acurafest I could touch the brakes at 80mph and hear them. Going through the parking garage I kept it in 1st gear to try and avoid hitting the brakes. On the way home I was using them in the garage going down just to hear them and I couldn't be embarassed because I was too afraid of someone throwing something at my car for being so loud.

This isn't your normal brake squeal. This is a lower pitched sound and if you're into cars you'll recognize it as a track pad immediately. Unfortunately others do not.

The past two days they've been noise free.

Temperature does not seem to play a role nor does vehicle speed. The only thing that does matter is how hard you're hitting the pedal. There is definately a spot that makes them squeal. More or less and it goes away. Unfortunately the spot they squeal in is where I like to brake.

I hate cars

I forgot to add, there is dusting. Pretty much like stock 5at brakes which I can live with. The H2 pads dusted more like the Brembo equipped TL. IMO, it's a good thing because *usually* the higher dusting ones are easier on rotors.

There was also a ridge on the rotor near the hat that the H2 pads did not touch. The H6 pads hit it by 1/16" so it probably took a while to wear them into the new shap which may account for some of the dusting.

vc123

i have a similar set up as u
rotora front bbk ( 2 piece slotted rotors) and the rotora H6, "gold pad"
when i brake from 60-0, its much louder than the stock AT brake system
is yours like that too?

I hate cars

Mine is too. It's good to hear someone else with the same setup and the same noise. It's kind of like an "airplane" noise.

Mine is very quiet during normal braking but if I have to hit them a little harder than normal, I get the slot noise.

Having new pads seems to help just a little. When my H2s were nearly down to the metal, the noise was pretty bad.

How are you liking the H6 pads? Do you get the squeal too?

vc123

haha YES ! like "airplane" noise
its fine when i do 60km/h - 0, its quiet like stock brake
when i do 100km/h-0 its loud lol
mine squeal too, only when u step on the brake really really really lightly
i have rotora rear bbk too, 4 pot, with H2 pads and they r much quieter

I hate cars

So now I'm convinced the squeaking is directly related to how hard you use the brakes.

I went through the mountains a few days ago and did a few 120mph to 40mph hard stops downhill and lots of hard downhill stopping in general. Brakes and pads were flawless. For the first couple days after this trip, no squealing at all in normal driving. Today they started with a light squeal but not that bad. These pads may not be so bad for someone that uses hard braking often.

Inaccurate

You laid down a transfer layer going thru the mountains. Transfer layer stops noisy brakes. Light street usage for a few days wore away the transfer layer. Noise returned when layer was worn away.

Here is a cool video (click here). which talks about transfer layers. And, how light street usage rubs away the transfer layer with light brake usage. When normal street usage can not get the pads hot enough to continuously lay down a continuous transfer layer, it will led to noisy brakes once the transfer layer has worn away.

Watch for the sparks and the FLAMES in the video.... talking about heat? Flames baby :angryfire

I hate cars

You are definately right. Did the same thing again and the squeeking came back about 2-3 days later again.

Only thing I'm concerned about is if there is excess pad and rotor wear going on when there is no transfer layer.

Inaccurate

I learned a lot from watching this video.

I sort of knew about transfer layers from reading about bedding-in procedures in the years past.

But, this video really taught me what exactly the transfer layer is and why it is important. Also, the video showed me how to look at the rotor to visually see if the transfer layer was present or not.

I have been closely watching the wife's rotors on her RL with those new RB ET500 pads. I have been extremely surprised that all four rotors are showing a transfer layer at all times.

I have mixed feelings about the ET500 pads. One on hand, they need several stops to warm them up. On the other hand, they grab so well and no squeal so far.

I hate cars

I just watched it yesterday and learned a lot also. I noticed some time ago that my front rotors are extremely shiny. I guess that answers the question of the squeeking now. The fix is pretty cool though. Brake hard all the time. I can do that.

I hate cars

Just another update. I know hardly anyone has or will run these pads on their TL but just in case in the future anyone does, this info might be useful.

I've been a week with no squeaking at all. Basically, as long as you do some aggressive stopping once a day (sometimes you can get away with every other day) they won't squeak.

Inaccurate was dead on with the transfer layer. As I pay more attention, they squeak when the rotors are nice and perfeclty polished shiny. If you can see the transfer layer at all, they're perfectly quiet.

They dust a little worse than the stock 5at brakes if you drive easy but I swear as long as you drive them hard and keep that layer on there, they barely dust at all.

This brings me to my next point.... At a minimum, there's more pad wear happening without the transfer layer when braking easy for too many consecutive days. I have to assume that there's extra rotor wear going on too though it's not visually obvious right now.

Also, with the transfer layer there, braking feels more precise. The modulation and release and overall feel of the brakes is better. I can get it right up to the point of ABS easier, with just a pulse here and there.

Suprisingly, they work just fine on a mid 40 degree morning on the first stop. My first stop is when backing up out of the parking spot and the second is just 50' away when pulling on the main street so they're stone cold. I'm impressed that a pad that will take nearly 1,400 degrees will stop just fine at 40 degrees. I may report back when we get our first freezing day.

I probably won't get these pads again but may put a set away for track duty. The regular H2 pads are barely adequate if you push the full weight TL hard on the track. They're a hell of a lot of fun as long as you don't mind pushing them hard. I enjoyed the 2-3 races with a 300c Hemi where he lost his brakes completely and mine felt the same as they did on the first stop.

I highly recommend these pads to those with smaller rotors that will see higher temps or those that like to drive very aggressively all the time. In these scenarios, there would be little to no downsides and only upsides to these pads. I'm either going to use them until they wear out, doing basically a bed-in procedure every other day (or dragging the brakes for a minute or two on the freeway) to save the rotors (my assumption on the rotor wear) or buy some H2 pads while the H6 pads still have a lot of life and save them for the track.

I know this doesn't apply to anyone but I wish this info was out there when I was buying a set.

Inaccurate

IHC,

Thanks for the update. I think this info is helpful to people in a general sense. Although a person may not be interested in Rotora pads, your experiences still apply to performance pads in general.

For example, I think that I am going to try the RacingBrake ET500 pads on my car. The ET500 pads have been doing so well on the wife's RL and I am very impressed with them. Like you said, as long as I do a few aggressive stops per commute, I should be able to maintain that transfer layer in my lighter car.

Your observations of transfer layers causing less rotor wear is a sound one. Below is some reading that supports your observations -

SOURCE (click here)

I hate cars

Thanks. I'm glad someone reads my crap lol.

I have learned a lot. In the past, I would throw a BBK on with a street pad and go drag racing which didn't put much of a demand on the brakes. My brake knowledge was limited to the hydraulic system but I knew nothing of the transfer layer. In fact I thought the shinier the rotors teh better. This has been a learning experience for me.

I thought the only thing we had to worry about with a track pad was noise and the pad not working at lower temps. Now I understand that they will brake just fine at lower temps but they will be far from optimal and with more rotor wear without the transfer layer. I have to wonder from all of this if half the posts on here with people complaining about squeaking brakes is not from driving too easy.

I'm going to do a real bed-in this weekend until they fade. I feel really sorry for the rear brakes. Should be interesting to see how long the transfer layer lasts after this.

I hate cars

Here I am again with another "issue".

After taking the brakes into deeper and deeper territory to see what goes first, the front pads or the fluid, I found out it was neither.

I was on my 4th 100mph-0 stop and as usual the pedal was getting a little softer and the car was getting harder to stop. This time I pressed on because it has always felt weird and I decided to push it until whatever was causing the weirdness showed itself.

The pedal would get just a little softer and it felt a little like pad fade. The car took more pedal effort for a given deceleration and this was where I would stop the testing previously. However, pushing the pedal harder would still invoke ABS with about the same amount of effort, but stopping distances were considerably longer. The NT05s like heat so I knew it wasn't the tires.

After getting out of the car and shooting rotor temps I figured it out. The rear brakes were completely fading. I still have the Duralast c-max gold pads in the rear which I intended to replace months ago but got lazy.

The rears were still smoking after a brief cooldown drive. Rear rotor temps after the cool down were still at 700 degrees so I hate to think what the peak temps were.

Looking back on it, it makes perfect sense. The fronts are not coming close to fading, ABS takes about the same pedal effort on the 4th 100-0 stop as the first but the car doesn't stop as quick because the rears are doing nothing.

Anyone who says the rear brakes only do 10% of the braking in a hard stop on a FWD is misinformed (myself lol). I did not have the tools to measure stopping distances at the time with fresh rear brakes vs faded rear brakes but I have to say they contribute a solid 20% of the braking distance. I also have nearly 200lbs of audio equipment in the trunk and if the EBD works as I think it works, it automatically raises line pressure to the rears to compensate so mine may be working overtime.

After I upgrade the pads I will do the same testing again to prove my theory.

This is nothing against the c-max pads. They have been excellent. No dust or noise and they seem to grab good. I'm sure they're not designed for 5 consecutive 100-0mph stops on a stock sized rotor.

Inaccurate

Could this situation be remedied by placing hotter pads on the rears than the front pads?


The DashDyno data logger could be helpful to compare your stopping performance. Please note that I said braking performance, not braking distance.

The DashDyno can easily log your Speed vs Time. You would be able to see the total time needed to stop from 100-0, as an example. You could use the rate of deceleration to gauge the braking performance. You would also be able to see the level of braking performance thru the entire braking event. That is, you would be able to see at which point in the event that the fade began or see how linear (consistent) the braking strength was thru that event.




I never did believe this. For sure, it is true on a motorcycle. Probably was true with older cars having drums in the rear. Might be true with a cheaper car that experiences severe nose diving. However with more expensive, sophisticated cars such as the TL, they are designed to produce less nose dive during braking. Plus, the more expensive cars have the electronics to monitor and prevent rear wheel lockups, thus allowing the rear brakes to perform closer to the edge of lockup. Just my theory.