Im having a little issue trying to get my car tune with the ms3, by the way
I have no clue how all this tuning stuff works! I was ask by my tuner guy if I knew what software Rodney use to tune the ms3, well apparently Rodney is to busy I'm not gettin any response, if anybody knows how to mess with this ms3
Would you please be able to post a link of where and what exact software I would to tune the ecu with! Thanks

 

face palm.

lol

Do you have a wideband unit?

you know all of this was covered right? lol
the software is from tuner studios.
and if you have a wide band unit, you can get the software to tune itself.

 

I think you should find another tuner.

 

Ya I'm so limited to the ms3 tuners here in Dallas they are rare especially tuning the tl. All he want to know was which exact software the previous tuner use to tune it. Cause he told me that there are a lot of tuning software for the ms3 and he don't want to take any chance cause this is my daily driver

 

i saw your pm and meant to call you but i totally forgot. sorry man.

i thought tunerstudio was the only software for the ms3. maybe there is more. regardless, tunerstudio ms is the software to use.

i showed a couple tuners this setup and they ALL over complicate it. the only 2 things your tuner needs to really setup is ignition and fuel (besides the boost control). when they start to mess with all the settings bc they think it has to be used, is when the problems start and they cant figure out what to do.

 

There was Megatunix and Megatune but now TunerStudio is the main program to use with the MS3.

 

you didnt answer your phone. Stop screening calls! lol

 

oh no problem dude, anytime you are free just give a ring i just have a couple question for you! and hopefully my tuner won't have issue I'm crossing my figureslol when did you call!

 

like a week ago? haha look at your missed calls list for a 330 area code

 

oh man sorry! if you could can you give me a ring when you have free time
maybe you could explain why my car is acting weird with the ms3!
I'm like stuck in the dark right now with my car!

 

How about explaining whats going on in this thread, so that we know what to look out for. and to know the solutions.

 

well theres a few issue with car first of all its really hard to start, i have to hold the key
in the cranking position for a good 5 second for the car to start, next is the revving issue where i rev the rpm then let off the gas the rpm would come down about 500 or 600 rpm then it would rev up by itself to 6000 rpm or so, last but not lease i had a swap from auto to standard now i can't hit full boost which is around 4700 rpm, every time try it jerk the car like its shutting off the throttle or something it would not let me take it pass 5000 rpm,
and my throttle response sucks!

 

Did Rodney install your kit and tune the car? If so, did the issues come out of nowhere or was it given back to you like this. Mine takes a little longer to start, and will surge for 20 seconds when started after the car is warmed up sometimes, but never revs the engine more that 200-300 rpm.

 

yes rodney did the install and tune, it was given back to me like that except the
part where i can't take it past 5000 rpm! and yes mine sometime take more than 5 second to start like if stald out the trying to take off in first gear or something it act like it don't even want to start, i have to keep cranking it repeatedly its embarrassing sometimes when i can't get the car to start right away after i stald and everybody behind me is honking!
i tend to stald a lot due to the throttle respond lag trying to get the going from idle!

 

Do you have any logs? If you have a place to host files, maybe you could put up a log showing your issues along with the tune file then others could see exactly what is going on.

Also, do you have MegaLogViewer? You can load the log and the tune and see the correlation between the two.

 

oh KN i wish i knew what youre talking about, im so new to all this tuning and data loging stuff that im scared to even touch the ms3 box, ive already download the tunerstudio software im waiting till monday for the tuning guy to take a look at it, sorry to be so stupid at all this stuff i just cant afford to mess anything up on the ms3 right now the car is still drivable and its my daily driver.

 

NP. I'm hoping your tuner will be able to figure this out because you're going to get errors about firmware mismatches if you don't know what the current version is.

What mods do you have? The last tune that Rodney sent me has been pretty good and the startup is greatly improved.

The other things your tuner should do is make sure the calibrations are set for TPS and the coolant thermistor. The latter will greatly affect the warmup enrichment and idle characteristics.

 

i havent done any mod to the engine except the 6spd swap everything else is pretty the way it was when i got it from rodney which was the turbo kit!

ya thats another thing to i was trying to get a hold of rodney if maybe he can send me another tune or something in that sort, then i was hoping the tuner i take to wouldnt have to adjust much!

How much boost are you running

 

My concern is why the car was returned to you with so many issues. I would expect with Rodney and his tuner working on the car that the tune would be perfect. Did you do the auto to MT switch after the turbo and that is what is causing the issues? I don't understand how the tune became corrupted or changed, without you messing with it. Stalling in traffic and serious throttle response issues, in addition to reving to 6k randomly are issues you are just living with? I just don't see why Rodney let you take delivery of the car when it's running this poorly. If you can get a copy of the tune and send it to KN or Andy, they should be able to ID anything out of wack for you.

About the stalling, what clutch are you using? Is it throttle response or LW FW and sticky clutch that is causing the stalling?

 

I'm running about 7lbs of boost.

I'll PM you my email address. Shoot me an email and I'll send you the last tune Rodney sent me.

 

Alright well i finally received my MS3 the other day and started looking for a tuner around my way. I emailed a place and they asked me if i was bringing my laptop with the tuning software on it and i told them i could. They are charging 600 for a full tune. Still searching for other places but before then i do need to get on my "learn the MS3" $hit... Just went to the website and they get logviewer and tunerstudio for for 70 and the bluetooth for 70 as well. Im installing my MS3 under the driver seat. Is there anything else i should consider? and is everything i said good?

 

Is $600 time limitless? If they don't even have a laptop it sounds like they're going to learn how to use TunerStudio in shotgun mode.

Everything else you mention is good. The live tune feature is not included in the lite version but I wouldn't think they would need that for tuning.

 

i dont know what the 600 covers yet but it damn hell should be. As per their site, they dont do full throttle street tuning so dyno is a must and a tuning sessions does both. ima see if they know the program even though it says MS tuning on their site.

www.xenocron.com

 

Back from the DEAD!!! but I finally installed my MS3. i was able to get ahold of Andy and he helped me out some(greatly appreciate it). I updated the firmware to version 1.3.2. When i installed the old .msq, it gave me a log of errors due to the firmware versions. I looked over the few things I know so far and have read the groupbuy thread. i found the Coolant temp settings had to get installed as per KN_TL. I updated the injector size to 410 since i have RDX injectors and i connected my LC1 AFR. I started the car and the car was all over the place on idle. it kept going from 500 to 1300 rpms and AFR was 8. As per Andy, he said i should scale the Fuel VE chart in increments of 5% so i went .95 until AFR started climbing up to around 12-14 but still 500-1200RPMs. The car eventually stalled but it was still hunting. Here are few a pics of the logs and charts.

 

Click below to download the msq and log files. Link will only be good for 14 days.

https://emerson.sendthisfile.com/99lVVFkZTGDBucdk52LUGhup

 

sorry for the late response Alex...one thing I had to do was adjust the required fuel...

I used the fuel calculator which comes with the MS3 and put in 3200cc for engine size and 270cc for injector size (still havent installed the RDX injectors) and the required fuel came upto 13.3....the car would start and stall...

I bumped this up by increments of 1 (yes 1, not 0.1) and I was upto 18.3 and thats when she was idling fine (no rpm jumps and such) but I was still at 16.x AFR. Started bumping it up by 0.5 increments and was up to 22.8 and it was idling at 14.7 AFR

Not sure what is wrong with the software or my injectors or maybe the calculator but this was the only was I could get her to start and idle properly....now when driving, it was perfect....around the 14.x AFR until 3000rpm and then in the 13.x and even higher 12.x at WOT when VTEC kicks in....

the only 3 issues I had were:

1> when I let off the throttle and coast, the car would run very very very rich (10.x)
2> at higher rpms (above 4000rpm) when I let off the gas....say you do a 3rd gear run and let off the throttle, it would (not sure if misfire is the right word here) but burble like you let off the gas in a effin F40....kinda cool but I didnt want it LOL
3> takes a little bit to crank up

Issue 1 was solved by changing decel fuel amount under the accel enrichment wizzard....and the issue #2 was solved by changing the VE table....

issue #3 I still dont know how to resolve....but it wasnt a show stopped until summer hit us hard....this issue repeated when we hit 100 deg days consecutively....

the car would take a while to crank and still wont...but when I take the key out and try again, its cranks up instantly....I had a fault code for IAT sensor circuit too high but Torque was reading the sensor just fine and was displaying around 105degs on intake air temp...the nail in the coffin was since I did not have the MS3 hooked up to a computer and was not auto tuning, I got some knock (the first time I have ever had knock in my car)....the minute I got home, I disconnected the MS3 and havent installed it back yet....


now another issue which I do notice is:

BEFORE installing MS3, my Innovative LM2 would read the same AFR as the Torque using OBD2 (not exactly the same but very very close)....

with MS3 installed, Torque AFR using OBD2 again would be lightyears away from the LM2 afr...I thought this was OK since toque reads what is commanded by the ECU, since the MS3 piggybacks off it, it was normal for LM2 to be reading a different AFR....

but after using MS3 for 3-4 months, when I disconnected it, now Torque and LM2 still read different AFR's...not very very far apart but still not remotely close to how it used to be before running and tuning the MS3 for a long period of time....

not sure the root cause of this but MS3 does seem like it needs a ton ton ton ton of tuning work before its good to be used....no wonder Andy/Matt/etc are going away from it....

since you have the MT, why not look into hondata?

 

Your suppose to calibrate your lm2 again. That should help. I'll reply bigger tonight. Thanks for the info and the reply. I lost your number. Text me if you still have mine

 

I'll email you a tune tonight Alex to get you on the right path as far as timing and such to get this idle taken care of. Text me to remind me at about at 9pm and ill plug in the archived hard drive to explore a bit. Good ol' MS3 lol.

 

I think the wide and should have the right afr if setup right the whole idea behind the wideband is most cars use narrowband oem o2 sensors thatre tuned in a very narrow range right at stoic (14.7)

The wideband has a bigger range and should be more accurate even if it's after the precats (converters won't effect the wideband o2 sensors ability to get an accurate afr) but wideband should be in the pipe after the merge and at an angle upwards about 45 degrees not vertical or horizontal in the pipe

Naturally they're going to read differently, I'm not that familiar with the lm2 setup or cal procedures though

I'm also not sure how accurate torque really is mine showed my car advancing timing up to 40 degrees on wot runs and hanging around at 33 degrees which is probably way off that's too far advanced I think

 

Thanks Anil. I'll do this right now to see if it does anything. I need to take the car out of the garage so hopefully it works. When you said you corrected issue#2 by changing the VE Table, did you scale it down?

Im just trying to get the car running nice with the s/c, im not trying to break the bank getting another ecu and the hondata...

 

I alrready got a 9PM alarm ready to text you. Thanks alot. Did you ever send that text to so they could contact me?

 

Well i tried... Was running way too rich and the fumes got crazy so i just shut her down.

 

I think that is a little tooo downstream and with that said, I have it right at the merge on the V3 Jpipe as well....

with Torque, its reads what the ECU is commanding the AFR to be (not actual AFR) and the LM2 was reading the actual AFR and they were very very close...

with MS3 (or any piggyback unit) the ECU commands the AFR to be say 14.2 but the MS3 modifies the signal to be 13.8, so Torque reads 14.2 but LM2 reads 13.8-ish

not sure how things would change AFTER running the MS3 for a while and disconnecting it....I need to do a little more research on this...maybe I will put the MS3 back in....

Yezzir, scaled that down (since I dont let it autotune below 1500 rpm, that never got corrected)....

also I did notice that when off gas (coasting) and on stock ECU, it totally cuts off the injectors, but MS3 does not do that....MS3 also keeps the timing very very high (30 degs advance at coasting) whereas before (using Torque) it was 0 degs or even -10 when coasting....

I changed the timing (scaled it down as well) around those areas and those burbles were reduced by a lotttt....

did you try messing with the required fuel? scaled it down?


Andy, if you have a tune for a base NA (before you went FI and Type S), can you send that to me as well brotha...

 

Interesting part is the MS3 as they came from Rodney have no way of knowing what the AFR actually is without tuning the tables manually off of a wideband.

Rodney did not wire in any of the stock O2 sensors into the MS3, for obvious reasons since we have 2 primary O2 sensors, directly on top of each converter or test pipe.

The wideband install guide from innovate just says to install it from 3 o' clock to 9 o' clock in the pipe at least 24" downstream of the merge or H-pipe, it does say that the the bung should be installed before the converters as installing it after the converter can cause it to read lean. If you have no converters, I'd think the HFPCs shouldn't skew it too much, but not much choice on the TL as to where it goes in, it pretty much has to go in where the third converter is due to space constraints. Shouldn't much matter how far downstream it is, as long as there are no exhaust leaks prior to the wideband in the pipe and it's at least 24" after the merge (that'd be pretty far down the pipe for the TL with an RV6).

Biggest concern is no exhaust leaks prior to the wideband O2, as that'll cause it to go lean since O2 entering the exhaust pipe before the wideband would be registered.

This is taken from innovate's install guide here:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/s...C-2_Manual.pdf

This one for the LM-1 says basically the same thing, but they included some more details on the effects in the LC-2 manual.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/s...C-2_Manual.pdf

All of these tunes are essentially static VE tables that the MS3 is using to adjust the fuel blindly, it has no feedback except from the user, as to what the AFR is.

I had intended to put mine in, before I picked up the accord, and try to get the MS3 to run off the innovate LC-2 in a closed-loop mode and see how it runs having feedback from the wideband O2 sensor to target the AFR.

That commanded AFR shouldn't be very useful at the point of having the MS3 plugged in, if it is just the commanded AFR. The stock ECM no longer has any way to adjust the AFR when you have MS3 plugged in, since MS3 has control of the injectors and has no way of knowing what the AFR actually is without the wideband.

Not sure if anyone has dug into the megamanual much, but here's a link:

Wiring and Sensors

That's for the section on the O2 sensors. Shows the difference between narrowband and wideband there too.

I put some thought into the idle problems that everyone was having as well and it's pretty much hopeless with the DBW setup on the car. The only real way to get control of it is to do what tony the tiger did and convert it over to a cabled throttle-body and no longer have VSA. I think that'd only be practical on a 6MT though as I don't know if or how much DBW plays into the shifting of the 5AT. And now the 6MT can run hondata.

I think MS3 sort of got a bad rep from all this on our cars, but it's actually a very capable ECM.

The idea of adding an IACV I think wouldn't work, what we would've ended up doing is giving two systems control of the same idle circuit and create a conflict between the two, in case anyone considers that idea again.

Basically what would happen is the stock ECM would adjust the idle RPM one way, then MS3 would move it another way to try to control the idle RPM with the IACV. Once the MS3 made its move the stock ECM would try to adjust the idle RPM again, since it was not at the target RPM due to the IACV adjusting it - however slight. That would cause a back-and-forth battle between the two competing systems for idle control and idle would likely hunt all over the place as the two systems fight.

The only real way to get control of it, is as best you can the way andy had done it (I think I had read by increasing the number of steps on something?) or deleting the DBW throttle body altogether and going cabled like tony the tiger did on that 700whp turbo build. At which point if a cabled throttle body was installed then the IACV could be added and control wired in to the MS3 which would then be able to control both closed-loop and open-loop idle. At that point the stock ECM would no longer have control of the engine at all, except during start-up for the immobilizer and ignition circuits, fuel pump is already controlled by MS3 when you have it on and the engine fan is shared with MS3 and the stock ECM.

All things I had considered.

Edit - I think tony the tiger had stated in that thread that he had kept VSA working with the cabled throttle body by leaving the DBW control unit (off the throttle body) plugged in or something, I had enquired in that thread, because it was the best hope for idle control with MS3.

 

The real reason is that the stock sensors are of proprietary design and there is no analog signal to feed to the MS3

I thought that initially but when looking at the logs when the idle wanders and surges, there was no TPS fluctuations. I'm not saying that the A/C, alternator and brake inputs won't cause this to happen, but no one really knows what that system is doing. If it's not simply feathering the TB and is doing fuel and/or timing adjustments, then it'll never fight with the MS3 taking over that portion of control.

I was all set to try an IACV and have one sitting around here somewhere. But then took on the FP wiring and never got to give it a shot.

 

Could always be worth a shot, worst case the idle goes all over. Could plumb it right into a T-junction at the fuel vapor canistor bung on the intake manifold without modification to the mani for testing since that's behind the throttle body.

I do know the DBW adjusts the throttle plate when the P/S pump switch is engaged or the AC condensor switch is engaged (either of them under load). That's from the SM, but MS3 won't care in either of those scenarios, the harness has no input from either.

EDIT: I will say tampering with this could be potentially dangerous and hazardous, we don't know what the DBW system and IACV would do together, particularly while driving or idling.

 

During the thought process of adding the IACV was finding a way to disconnect/fool the stock ecu into thinking the A/C, brake pedal, power steering and alternator inputs were still there in non-intervention mode.

There are SO many different settings with the MS3/tunerstudio with regard to using a IACV, it can be done safely.

 

working with Andy lately has found that updating firmware on the MS3 and tunerstudio really isnt the best thing.... There are alot of new settings (more like not hard to find ones) and a different structure where is not in a pin-to-pin so the tune i had was not working properly with this version. The plan is to downgrade both tunerstudio and the Ms3 to get it right then if ever i wanted to upgrade again, i would have to basically write a new tune from scratch. My thoughts so far are its really not that bad. There is a lot to learn for anyone that plans to use the Ms3 or any tuning ecu/software. Every single incremental change makes a difference so be careful of what you change. Thanks to Kurt, Anil, and Andy for always contributing all their knowledge, experience, and time to support this Mod and Acurazine in general. I know myself have been off for a few years now but kids are older and house is bought so now i can play with the old TL again... Mine is an 06 making it almost 9 years old.... still under 100K.

 

WOAHHHH Thanks for that Alex and a hugggeeeee thanks for putting out there that "do not upgrade the firmware or tunerstudio"

while pulling some settings for you yesterday I got a prompt to upgrade Turnerstudio and since I was in a hurry I opted NO and I know I will keep opting that LOL....

I need to hit Andy up for couple things, including something which I might be interested in buying from him


also Alex, have you tried going the Vac line route to tune the MS3 instead of the throttle position? I know Kurt was mentioning it might be a good idea to do so...

 

Yes, i plan on doing that today. with the updated firmware and software, it was giving me an error where both the MAF and MAP sensors were connected to EXT_MAP. If i turn off the MAF sensor, car would start and shut down instantly. and when i switched the MAP sensor to MAINBOARD, if i pressed the throttle, the car would shutdown so it was a lose lose situation.