MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

As for the mfg making the throttle body colder from the get go.....it is a one size fits all deal as much as they can make it....and this would not work in MAJORLY icy cold areas....just my guess though? Not to mention...with the mod...you do have an off CHANCE, no matter how distant, that you could freeze or get linkage stuck...and John Q Public couldnt deal with that and not sue out the wazoo....so it is what it is! Not to mention....public companies dont take well to exposure of this type. It gets stuck at WOT....we are most likely gonna just turn the key off and glide to a stop and figure it out.....Momma Kass is gonna run over 15 people and crash into the pole though...resulting in Pappa Kass suing everybody! We wont mention the burning babies either!

bluenoise

That's a bit of what I was refering to when I said that a manufacturer could take steps to keep it cooler. I'm thinking that, if the gains that come from a cooler throttle body are worthwhile, the manufacturer would use an active system to keep it at an ideal temperature. For example, run coolant through it like they do now, but put in a thermostat that only routes the coolant through when there is a risk of freezing. This would allow the throttle to stay at a cooler temperature without the risk of freezing in cold conditions.

againstallodds1

I did the install, and it might of been done incorrectly, I followed the directions perfectly and lined up all gaskets perfectly. I torqued down the throttle body twice and it still came loose. My suggestion is keep an eye on is so yours doesnt comes loose. This doesnt explain why I am only getting 5.62 - 5.80 0-60 on regular street, and at the track I am getting 6.15 0-60. Both using g-timer. I was only able to get 14.7 at the track last tuesday. The last time I went in November I managed to pull a 14.307.

mbwmn

i had good "driveability" improvement on my 6mt, most noticeable in warmer weather. i give it a thumbs up for the $100. price and easy install. more so than the injen cai @ 2.5x's the price.

if you think this will replace a $4k supercharger and give you the same increase in h.p. + torque think again.

SparkAF

I just checked mine and nothing has come loose. I used a torque wrench and tightened bolts in the sequence the service manual recommends. Throttle response is great, it's been two weeks, well worth the $100. ProCats will be installed 28 Mar.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the response! BTW...absolutely not judging here and dont want to hear that stuff out of anybody! Everybodies here to learn and obviously we know that we all have skills to some degree or another...or we wouldnt be out modding our cars....that being said...our type of folk often are very prideful and this is in no way meant to question anybodies skills or competency levels in any way. We are merely collecting facts/commonalities to give this bad boy a good scientific sampling/look so TOGETHER we can get as many facts about this as we can in order to either get to the bottom of some of the problems people are having or find that there is an issue with this or that....and we can come to a fix for it! Either way...good knowledge for us all and a great way to start a new level of information for us all to pull from! I thank everyone else in advance for their responses and integrity! As we get more responses...I will make a formal spreadsheet and post a link here so we can have this pinned down one way or the other. Copy and paste the section below and add your info to the mix and I will add it to our database of information!

Thermoblok Spacer Install Results/Reported Problems:
Name Brand=Self/Shop=Bolts=Time Inst=Be Brief
Michael Benz=Outlaw=Shop Installed=TBD Bolts=3wks=No Problems Reported
Againstallodds1=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=Xwks=Loss of power
SparkAF=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=2wks=No Problems Reported

Phesto

phesto 2003 TL-s =outlaw=shop installed=kit bolts=2months=no problems so far i guess

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Thermoblok Spacer Install Results/Reported Problems:
Name Brand=Self/Shop=Bolts=Time Inst=Gen=Be Brief
Michael Benz=Outlaw=Shop Installed=TBD Bolts=3wks=3G=No Problems Reported
Againstallodds1=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=Xwks=3G=Loss of power
SparkAF=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=2wks=3G=No Problems Reported
Phesto=Outlaw=Shop Installed=Kit Bolts=2mo=2G=No Problems Reported







Prob Occurences Will Be Highlighted In Red For Visual Ease Of Analyzing!

againstallodds1

self installed=bolts came loose on t/b= 2months=self installed
ttliang took his off last night and said he has more power when he took it off. So I took it off this morning and my car has more power now. I would like to get it back on the dyno and see if there is any increase in torque or hp. She feels smoother and quicker

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

If there was a problem sealing it though....you will get better #'s when its off then when its on and possibly not sealed or something like this? Same exact thing with ttliang...if the bolts rattled lose or the gaskets became misaligned or if the torque sequence wasnt followed on one of em exactly...that could be an explaination.

ttliang

bolts were tight. followed service manual's intall/remove sequence. tq wrench according to acura spec. nothing out of ordinary when i took it off. still use the same gaskets. i've been doing car mods bolt-on since 18. old man now. do know a thing or 2 with tools. not that means too much. just FYI. we're cool tho.

i really didn't notice not much difference when i first put it on. def. noticed the difference when i took it out tho.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Thermoblok Spacer Install Results/Reported Problems:
Name Brand=Self/Shop=Bolts=Time Inst=Gen=Be Brief
Michael Benz=Outlaw=Shop Installed=TBD Bolts=3wks=3G=No Problems Reported
Againstallodds1=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=8wks=3G=Loss of power reported
SparkAF=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=2wks=3G=No Problems Reported
Phesto=Outlaw=Shop Installed=Kit Bolts=2mo=2G=No Problems Reported

What I am thinking is that we are gonna find that there is an issue with the bolts coming lose after install if there wasnt thread lock used or something during the install.....something? I even found reference to once occurance on the net that mentioned you HAVE to used some gasket sealer to get it to seal right? Who knows...but the collection of info is gonna help find out. I know SSC does not read directions for the most part...so who knows what procedure they used...it may differ slightly from the instructions? Maybe the bolts are causing the problem and they used different ones, all unanswered right now....but maybe together we can find the issue with all the info. Sence would say that if there was a leak...it would be faster now that you took em off....so that really isnt indicative of anything really other than possibly there was a problem before you took em off. At some point, they must have seemed an asset....they were on 8 weeks? Or possibly you noticed a power loss from the get go? All I am saying is lets not pre-judge this until we get a good sample set of data to look at....possibly the directions are wrong? Maybe SSC used a different torque procedure/sequence or something or thread lock as they seemed to have seen this before...or again...maybe after 8 weeks the bolts rattle loose and we all are gonna have the problem? (this is why I am on this at this point, proactive measures?) We will just keep at it collecting info!

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

If you think about it...with these spacers....there is in fact...twice as many spots for a leak to occur as you have added a very narrow "sleeve" to it...meaning its gonna be a bit harder to get the seal just right and aligned just right on all surfaces. Just brainstorming a bit here?

With the blocks in there...it does create more of a propensity for a leak at either side of the block as opposed to smashing a gasket in between two parts.....



If you look at the images above, you can see what I am saying possibly. I just gotta believe that this is an installation problem or maybe this would explain why SSC doesnt use these for the most part...too problematic for the little results gained? Doesnt mean they arent good installed properly...just that they can be problematic if not installed just right...so to them (given how much they tear down) its too much of a hassle for what they are gonna get gain-wise?

scmorgan

Very interesting thread...

As it states in the installation instructions on page 6, "Important: Following a few days of operation, it may be necessary to re-torque the intake manifold and throttle body fasteners."

Some comments: (very long, my apologies)

1) Be very careful not to substitute "Thermobloks" for all types of thermal insulators. ThermoBlok is a trademark for those made by Outlaw Engineering only. There are other insulating spacers out there made by the likes of Hondata, Nextgear, etc. Those products are markedly different from Outlaw ThermoBlok spacers.

2) Those other kits utilize a 1/8" thick polypropylene or similar thermoplastic gasket for the stock gasket. This is done for two reasons A) the thin gasket does not require longer fasteners because it is so thin relieving the company from having to do the necessary research and procurement of fasteners, and B) since it is soft, it acts as its own gasket again relieving the supplier from research and procurement work and expense.

3) The use of a relatively thin, soft thermoplastic for the spacer, however, has serious drawbacks: A) less insulation. The insulation value is directly proportional to thickness, and a thin spacer will not insulate as well as a thicker one. B) LEAKS! The soft plastic, while it does seal, also exhibits what we in the industry call compression stress relaxation, a.k.a. "creep". Thermoplastic by its very nature deforms when it is subjected to heat and pressure. These other type gaskets compress, the bolts get loose, and they start to leak. Almost as bad, they also tend to absorb oil and gas. We have removed Hondata gaskets that were "squished", discolored or cracked. Not the ideal long term solution.

We love Hondata by the way. Their ECU tuning is second to none. But we are concerned that poor performance of their spacers will negatively affect us as well.


How are Outlaw Engineering ThermoBlok spacer different?

1) We choose to make our spacers thicker. We realize that this means we have to include additional fasteners with the kit, but we feel that if you've gone to the work to remove the manifold, it is little additional work to replace fasteners.

2) Our spacers are made with a specific hard thermoset composite. This material is more expensive, is more difficult to machine, and does not form its own seal. It also means that we have to go to the trouble of sourcing additional gaskets. We do this because it is the best insulating material that we know of and again since you've gone to the trouble to get in there, use the best.

3) We have been making ThermoBlok kits for 7 years and have removed test spacers from vehicles with over 5 years use. The spacers are perfectly fine and fit to be reused. We have shipped literally thousands of kits for nearly every make out there and have very rarely ever heard a complaint. In fact every difficulty has nearly always been traced back to incorrect installation or abuse.

We are not perfect, however, and when a mistake or quality problem exists, we are always very interested in fixing the problem. Our customer service has often received high praise from our customers. We truly do care about more than making a buck.


What about our quality?

Bolts: We searched long and hard and to procure the actual fastener specs for Honda and have them in our possession. The bolts used are actual JIS B1189 flange bolts (Japanese Industrial Standard) used on many Japanese made cars. These are not easy to find, but we wanted to make sure we only provided quality fasteners. Yes, they are more expensive. Yes, they are harder to source. Yes, we pay extra to make sure they are bright zinc plated. Just for you.

Gaskets: Same thing. We could provide cheap cardboard Fel-Pro gaskets, but don't. Instead, we use actual Honda gaskets when it is cost effective. If not, we get custom made gaskets cut out of the same type of aramid fiber material that Honda uses for many of its applications. Just that extra bit to make our kits better.

Articles about our products have been published in AutoSpeed magazine as well as others and companies such as Spoon Sports and Skunk2 and have (in our opinion) copied our products. This is not a new idea, it has been used by performance enthusiasts for years. You can buy similar spacers for nearly every engine out there.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

You gotta be the guy from Outlaw up the road! Howdy! Glad you joined in! I was gonna call you about this issue these folks have been having, being a fellow Indianapolis guy...not to mention I thought maybe this is something you might have seen before and could offer some advise. Currently, mine seem to work just fine!

scmorgan

Yes. I'm not sure why my sig wasn't added.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

outlaw is a very good company, they helped me out with a broken stud (which i need to mail back to them). chances are i overtorqued it bc i wasn't using a torque wrench. they sent me a new one no problem. they will help you out with any questions. i give them credit. and i give their product credit.

for those that think this has minimal gains. realize this mod, like every other, is impacted by other modifications you do. I.E. i think you will see a drastic difference between the following 2 scenarios:
TL w/ CAI, Coolant Bypass Skipped, Spacers
TL w/ CAI, Coolant Bypass, Ported TB, Ported Intake Manifold, Spacers

I know the latter is extreme, but understand, it's all relative. Intake flow is just as important as cool air. A larger flow of cooler air will result in bigger gains.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

I havent checked with Joe Demaree...but given Mr Morgan mentions that these are OEM honda-like bolts...I could almost say without asking that I am sure those are the ones he used! He hadnt even opened the Outlaw box when he made the "cheap hardware bolt statement"...so given they are like OEM's....I can bet that is what he used!

Mr Morgan....also...could there be an issue at all with the addition of the non OEM Pro-Cats to the mix? I doubt it...but thought I would ask? I am running those as well...and so is the guy with the problem (there is another one around here somewhere....but he hasnt come in here yet and spoken up). I am with you....I am thinking this is an install issue that we can get to the bottom of for these guys! I cant believe these arent beneficial, as Joe states...maybe they are too much trouble in his case...but he is just running down the strip for the most part too (although they do have a street car too...I dont know what/if they run them on this or not). And as Joe states....if they arent installed right or a leak occurs due to improper torque or sequence....like ANY part....its not gonna work as designed!

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

I would agree...I was both glad and impressed that Mr. Morgan took the time to come here and help us out! Only goes to show it is a solid company that stands behinds its products! As I said...not having a problem myself....but want this to work equally as good for everybody! You are right too....gains are going to be dependant on other mods installed and how well they work together. Mr Morgan...I have the Pro-Cat system installed...I cant imaging this making a difference to any of these people...but if you need a car to check out let me know and I can bring you mine. I am just up the road in Fishers and have all the mods listed below...which is pretty typical for most of us around here.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

BTW....sorry to use the term Thermoblok generically! You are right...that is specific to Outlaw Engineering. Fact is....it is a true compliment to your product and marketing when your product has grown to be the "kleenex" of the industry like that! Good work! As a salesman...I truely can appreciate this more than you know!

Spiritman

OK, I ordered the kit! After reading about half of the posts..... Then came the post from ttliang. WOW what is this?? I'm thinking. But It seams to me that with a little extra care during install this is a good mod! Where did you get the intake torque pattern and torque value? Does it come with the kit? I'll let you know what happens here after install......

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

There are far too many people with this on their car sucessfully to there to be a huge conspiracy or problem. Something tells me we are getting to the nature of the problem now....careful and proper install, torque values, and sequence. As well as making sure everything is lined up right on! I wouldnt put too much weight on this problem given the amt of sucessful installations.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

Michael - I can't imagine the guy who installed your kit NOT using the bolts supplied. Unless he custom made his own bolts, you can't use OEM parts because spacer length. You need new Studs/Bolts for Intake Manifold/Throttle Body, but you can reuse the OEM nuts. I don't think their parts are faulty at all. I got my kit second hand used, and quality still looks great.

mbwmn

mbwmn=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=15+wks=3G=no problems

(i used blue loctite [ex-motorcycle roadracer], and torqued to spec w/ a Hazlet 3/8 clicker wrench)

gqchicago

Ah HA! Loctite of course! (Glulike stuff in a bottle that keeps the bolts from moving once installed..good stuff!) I was just going to post asking if anyone had used it during install and saw your post mb..good one thanks!

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/produ...id=48&plid=153

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

This was just something we were looking at for a possible cause...but at this point..we may be getting down to the meat of the issues here. I frankly didnt want to make the statement that my guy did or did not use the bolts, given his initial statement that they often change from the bolts that come with kits when they are "hardware store quality"...but given what Mr. Morgan states about the bolts that come with the kit being OEM quality and type...I am sure you are right that these are most likely the ones he used....and maybe he used locktite too, who knows?...just didnt want to commit to anything or make statement that was incorrect, until I am sure? Thats why I said I was not sure what he did. He is a fellow racer though....and lots of those guys swear by locktite blue and red (depending on the application you are using it on)...so maybe he put some in too and thats why I also am not seeing a prob...? Time could also be a factor...I am only at 3 weeks. We are just collecting info basically in order to look if there is a common factor. So far the only common factor is "self install"....so there is still lots to learn!

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Thermoblok Spacer Install Results/Reported Problems:
Name Brand=Self/Shop=Bolts=Time Inst=Gen=Be Brief
Michael Benz=Outlaw=Shop Installed=TBD Bolts=3wks=3G=No Problems Reported
Againstallodds1=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=8wks=3G=Loss of power reported
SparkAF=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=2wks=3G=No Problems Reported
Phesto=Outlaw=Shop Installed=Kit Bolts=2mo=2G=No Problems Reported
mbwmn=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=15+mo=3G=No Problems Reported *Locktite used

varanelli

varanelli=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=5wks=3G=No Problems Reported

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Thermoblok Spacer Install Results/Reported Problems:
Name Brand=Self/Shop=Bolts=Time Inst=Gen=Be Brief
Michael Benz=Outlaw=Shop Installed=TBD Bolts=3wks=3G=No Problems Reported
Againstallodds1=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=8wks=3G=Loss of power reported
SparkAF=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=2wks=3G=No Problems Reported
Phesto=Outlaw=Shop Installed=Kit Bolts=2mo=2G=No Problems Reported
mbwmn=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=15+mo=3G=No Problems Reported *Locktite used
Varanelli=Outlaw=Self Installed=Kit Bolts=5wks=3G=No Problems Reported

againstallodds1

im a homo i love to beat off in my acura. i have come to the conclusion that i am gay i have been beating off in my acura thinking about how i want to stick it in a man ass..... please can i have some advice on how to fix my problem... thanx guys

ttliang

mine didn't have any bolts problems. low end tq was either reduced or curve was shifted. didn't get on the dyno so can't tell you for sure which one there. higher RPM was OK. had to down shift all the time to rev up RPM. it's not like the car sucked dirt or something. it's just not the same with it.

nobody has yet answered/discussed my question/theory on the much colder IAT sensor temp reading. this is not a carburetor car. ECU must react to much colder temp. reading. colder air got more O2. but an IAT sensor reads temperature only. ECU must think air that cold is from arctic or something therefore provides feul accordingly. don't tell me different temp reading has no effect on ECU A/F ratio cuz it does. i guess i am senstive. i noticed the same thing when move IAT to the AEM CAI pipe location. i don't think it's the outlaw. it's just the IAT sensor colder temp reading that's affecting my low end tq. anybody wants to shed some light?

PS. theory-on 5AT cars due to lack of low end tq, the car will down shift much quicker therefore drivers think it's more "responsive"??? confirm/deny???

JTso

iTrader: (2)

On an OBD2 Honda ECU (1996 and up), it increases fuel and ignition timing when IAT senses cold. It decreases fuel and timing when IAT senses hot.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Nope...not the case here? Shift about same as before. Its more responsive because it all but eliminates the initial lag on takeoff...I think this is what people refer to when they are saying this.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

wouldnt it want to dump fuel if sensing hot air? hot air = hot combustion, i would think ECU wants to cool off engine and dump more fuel.

but colder air would increase timing, which is what you want. the difference between air temps in your intake manifold and air temps in the intake chamber pre-tb isn't going to be a HUGE diff. granted not all cars behave the same way, but in most cases, you want cooler IAT.

Nitrotiger

i gained buy moving the IAT basicly it picks up cooler air which makes the computer give you more timing. ans it showed on the dyno for me. were i was losing power at the end it's not anymore so moving the IAT worked for me.

RonJonTL757

I just ordered from Outlaw and it cost 106....not bad. I will most likley have my local shop do the install. Im not taking any chances on this car!! Ill kepp you all posted

Spiritman

It would be interesting to see how much they charge you. It would help me make up my mind if I want to do mine myself....

Rick-H

Truly, this is a very simple install; you will need to have a torque wrench-- but it is a very easy quick job. Unless you are a complete dufuss- and drop something down the intake manifold-- there really is NO risk.

It also a good time to inspect you throtle body for any deposits, and use a little cleaner if it needs it.

Spiritman

Forgive this off the wall question. But, doesn't the old gasket get stuck to the intake? I have no part's bath. Or can you just use solvent?

gqchicago

I would also think that the degree to which you CLEAN the old gasket off has everything to do with how good the seal is on the new installation, any leaks anywhere in this setup however minor due to bolt tension, gasket seal, anything are going to cripple this setup severely.