tenzingsherpa

how bout hispeed u and bert go to the same track? and get some timeslips? i mean u guys don't gotta go at the same time/day but it would show some evidence. i agree with both sides of argument, however i do think auto will be more faster if it made the same hp(with trans loss) than a MT(with trans loss) or if the MT driver sucks at driving. my .02 cents since i will be F/I in the next couple of weeks as well!! TWIN TURBO here i come!!!

crazyasiantl

iTrader: (7)

nice numbers.

in for time slips of both AT and MT

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20hp does not equal 5mph trap difference. There were other factors that you're missing. And at barely 200hp the drivetrain loss might matter. At 400hp you're not going to see it.

I hate cars

That's a theory but this auto vs manual has played out for decades. It's past the point of theory, we already know what happens. A few whp out of 400 is irrelevent. Getting off the line quicker and not having to lift on the shifts is very important.

TLdream

iTrader: (4)

Well im just stating facts from my previous experience. HP being equal i agree with you saying the auto will be faster/quicker. But you didnt say hp, with the setups being equal (same turbo/boost level) i think the manual will be faster.

major props to bert for actually taking his to the track.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I believe he was referring to greco when he made this statement. Greco has a fully bolted auto type s.

I ran a e92 months ago when I first had the car with my old tune putting about 340 to the wheels. The other driver said he had the competition package with 460hp....if there is even such a thing. We did a 40 roll to 90 I believe and he pulled no more then 2 cars.

I put 400 to the wheels with 10.2psi and meth with 15-16° of timing. But I do see low 11psi on the street.

Rodney put 479 to the wheels with 11.7psi no meth. Not sure of the timing but I think it was around 18°.

You 04 m/t guys have the advantage with a more aggressive timing curve from the factory. Post 04 m/t a little bit a of timing was pulled from the factory.

Looking forward to the numbers.

I like watching people go back and forth. You can always learn something new.

The last time I used the autoenginiuty unit to monitor knock it wasnt registering any knock retard under full throttle. The data stream just stayed constant. But at the same time I was monitoring timing as well and the ecm wasnt pulling timing so I guess it wasnt knocking.

Theres also a few factors that could of been factored in as to why there was no knock.

I have not reset the ecm in a long time and its possible that the ecm has already learned a knock pattern and pulled timing along the way.

Im running a pretty big amount of pure meth. This is probably the biggest reason why there was no knock.

I am tempted to turn the meth off and do one run while monitoring knock to see what happens. I would also have to upload a different map and lower the boost so Im not running lean.

When I was trying out different tunes to get a good launch I was monitoring timing only. I did 3 pulls from a standstill right after each other. By the 3rd run the timing in 1st gear had dropped 4 or 5° from the first run. Its possible it was knocking but I cant tell for sure.

A while back before monitoring knock, I had reset the battery and did a run in 3rd gear while monitoring timing. I cant remember exactly but I think I saw 17° throughout the power band. Nowadays, I never see 17° anymore but like I said earlier, I have not reset the battery in months so its possible the ecm learned that pattern.

Its hard to find good reviews on the knockoff hds units. I too am tempted to buy one

So overall I dont know if the autoenginuity software can monitor the stock knock sensor.

Since Ive been playing around with the spr settings on the ebc, I need to re-tune the fuel map b.c im starting to run leaner each time I raise the spr. Ill reset the battery and monitor the knock sensor to see if I can get some readings.

2.5 hours away is a long drive just to hit a track but It might be worth it. Ill let you know

He lives in cali and im in NY. Not gonna happen. It would be the ultimate shootout though.

I hate cars

Bert, I will seriously kick down some money for the turbo fund. I know how much time and money is involved and the info you've shared is going to help many others who go this route. In fact, it's probably going to help me out when I get around to it. Let me know if I can help out.

On topic, that's a pretty serious change in the timing between the auto and manual. You can make it work to your advantage by being able to run more boost than them without knock but I'm sure it's a little scary running into uncharged territory hp wise.

Also, about the 6mt and 5at hp numbers at almost the same boost, different timing.... I realize as numbers go up, the percent lost throught the drivetrain can go up with the extra friction involved, it doesn't stay constant but that number should stay pretty much constant between the 5at and 6mt. However the numbers are pretty far off. I still wonder if you're not blowing through your torque convertor. The amount of heat generated usually goes waaay up when this happens and I know yours is running pretty cool. Would you be open to swapping the convertor out at some point with one made for the power if I can hook it up?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I really dont need any money but I do appreciate it. My next upgrade if I choose to go with more power will be pistons and rods. Rodney has a set of custom pistons that he is putting into his car and wants to test before he offers them to us. He also doing some major motor work too.

I could be off a little bit on the timing for the m/t so I have to double check.

Like you said, I could up the boost to compensate for the lack of timing but anything over 400whp is really pushing into unknown territory with this car. Who knows, it could be a ticking time bomb right now...

I really like the idea of a higher stall converter. But I think its important to figure out how to powerbrake first with the stock converter and take it from there.

Im pretty happy with the way the car launches now. I really cant imagine what its like to leave the line with a few psi. I would have major wheel spin on street tires. Is stall speed related to how much psi it can make off the line? Can a stall of 2000 make the same boost as a 3000 stall?

Can you explain "blowing through the converter" ?

I was also reading about a lot of the drawbacks with a higher stall converter on a daily driver. Whats your opinion on that?

I hate cars

That's awesome. Sounds like we'll be seeing some 600hp TLs in the future.
Very true. Plus at this point, the loss to the wheels is unknown.
100% agreed. Powerbraking is more important than upgrading the convertor. You may find that you don't even need a higher stall.
Stall speed is the stall rpm but yes, the purpose for more rpm is so the turbo can build more boost off the line. One of the nice things is the boost will be a little more linear instead of the off/on you probably see now. The throttle will be easier to modulate and the boost will go away quicker as you lift off the throttle.

The turbo has to have enough exhaust flow to hit full boost. The high stall convertor will hopefully get the rpms up enough to produce that boost. It would go on a turbo vs turbo basis. A 3.5L TL-S would be able to spool the same turbo at a lower rpm since it's making more exhaust.

It's not just about being able to make the boost but how easy you can make it. Just throwing numbers out there but say it takes full throttle to make 2psi on a 2,000 stall convertor, it may only take 1/2 throttle to make 5psi on a 2,800 stall. Boost will be easier to make.
It's basically when you go from 10% or less slip to 20% or more. The convertor just can't hold the power and it becomes very inefficient just like a slipping clutch on a mt. Generally it will make somewhat normal hp up to a certain hp level and then the power increases won't be as much as they should be. I've seen guys throw a 200 shot of nitrous and pick up 45hp.
I like to keep it as conservative as possible. IMO, a 2,800 stall is as high as you can go with very few drawbacks on a DD. With this stall, it will behave mostly like a stock convertor until you put your foot into the throttle.

You will probably love it even without boost. It will make if feel as if the car has lost 1,000lbs.

I've run a 4,000 before and by the 2nd day I wanted to get it out of there. Drawbacks are typically heat and mpg.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Forgot to add, is it possible that the only reason I cant powerbrake is because the stall speed is so low? The highest rpm while datalogging is 2150. I would think even a low stall should allow atleast 1-2psi or even no vacuum. I only see -13 vac

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It's definately the ECU. Turbo or not it should show 0 vacuum. You bring up a good point, I wonder what the stock convertor would stall at if you could go full throttle at the start. Who knows, it might not be that bad.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

^I know the service manual says the stall is 2000 and Im seeing about 2150

I was reading something in regards to the converter...something along the lines of if your driving under full throttle and when the shift happens, if the rpms dont drop when going into the next gear then your blowing through the converter. Does that sound right?

If thats the case then I dont have a problem with the rpms.

I hate cars

That's a common symption. Looking at your videos, everything has always looked fine especially how sharp the dropoffs are during shifts. The only other thing could be the ECU pulling throttle between shifts, taking the load off the convertor momentarily to hide any issues. But again, yours does not seem to show any of the normal signs, not even elevated fluid temps. This is one time I will be glad to be wrong.

vtec22

All I have to say, amazing work man ;-). I have 1 question tho, can you beat a 335i or xi (chipped)?

AtlM5

^lol

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

Some of the 335's with JB3, meth, catless downpipes, and DC intakes are running close to 12 flat @ 115-118. I think OP's car is probably capable of trapping 115 but I don't know about the ET without slicks. Lot of variables here.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Not anymore since I just blew a piston lol

I have never run into a modded 335. I ran a stock 335 from 60-90 with my previous tune making about 340whp. I pulled about 3 cars.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

WTF happened???

I hate cars

Sorry this happened but were you monitoring knock? Broken piston ring lands is usually caused from detonation, not power.

calvinnguy3n

iTrader: (1)

how is everyone getting traction? my 1st and 2nd gears just spins the tires

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

what tires are u running? are u just flooring it? 6mt or 5at?

calvinnguy3n

iTrader: (1)

yokohama es100s 245/45/17.
6mt
in 2nd gear if i floor it, it'll grab traction, but once i pass about ~4k then it'll just spin.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I remember that well. Glad to hear the blower is working out well for you.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Without the cats the engine breathes so freely that the car pulls very hard without the boost.

sgod515

Sick numbers dude. I'm very impressed. If you don't mind me asking, how much money and time did this project cost you? I'm interested but I don't know if I have the time for all the tuning that needs to be done in order for the car to run correctly because shes currently my daily driver. Anyway, your feed back would be much appreciated. If you don't want to discuss the finanncial aspect of it on this public board, could you pm me and fill me in. Thanks again and congrats on this.

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

those tires + street = spin.

tamadrumr88

iTrader: (2)

That thing sounds nasty when it hits 4.5k-5k rpm

cardiostack908

ummmm any forged internals possible? then higher boost ? :P

I hate cars

Already being done in the turbo thread. Forged internals will only prolong the inevitable if the tune is not right.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

nice!

just an FYI, SpeedWorld's dyno reads a tad high (they dont turn on correction)... i used to pull my 3G TL's there

i actually made 294whp on my type-s 5AT with all bolt ons

pass427

We can all agree the tune was not correct along with a few other factor ,such as fuel the car was setup for around 380-400 ,so theres a lot of factors and ill bet after turning up the spring pressure the tune had to be off ,but with a standalone ecu in testing im quite confident our knock concerns will be a thing of the pass, as the standalone will have the capability to adjust any parameter as needed , but im betting with the cold temperatures up by libert and increased psi at a steady hold that car was producing almost 430-450 whp on the street which indeed would have induced knock at that level, and fuel pressure lost as the fuel system was not setup for this but rest assure the next time libert visits the 400whp club hell be there in a safe manner with all necessary upgrade been addressed as we speak...

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Based off the 4 videos I took that night RIGHT before the misfires while I was toying with the crack pressure, the a/f NEVER went above 12.2 and stayed mostly in the high 11s. This was with 3 different wastegate crack pressure settings. 3.3, 5.0 and 8.0.

Turning the crack pressure up didnt affect the a/f nearly as much as I thought it would. Spool only increased a little bit and I was not seeing any spikes either. I bet once the crack pressure gets over 10.0 it would be a different story.

rnguyen7

this is just pure sex I tell ya, but damn I wish i had the money to do this.

My mechanic told me TL-S are very complicated to F/I because of the compression or something..

I hate cars

TL-S has the same compression as the base model. High compression is not the best starting point for forced induction but with a good tune and lots of octane it's fine. All TLs are difficult because of lack of tuning options. Every day it seems like they get closer to having a good tuning option. "Pass427" is coming up with an awesome tuning option it looks like.

tenzingsherpa

^^ yup u i hear that. btw IHC, just curious, but what kindof octane would i need to run a decent amount of boost on my j-series engine with 11:1 or 10:1 CR? also IHC how do u feel about toulene? and mixing it in with premium gas?

I hate cars

I did toulene for a few years before the meth injection. I recommend the meth but if you do the mix, keep it under 30% or you will start having fuel system failures. I had a couple when I tried to get greedy. IMO, meth will pay for itself in just a couple months over toulene.

100 octane should get you a safe 12+psi on a stock TL. You could probably push it to 15psi, maybe a few more but the only way to know would be to monitor knock.

If you do a build and can lower the comp to 9:1 you will be able to push a solid 17psi on straight 91. On a stock J (if it could hold it) you're talking about 580-590whp with no other mods to the engine (cams/heads/etc).

tenzingsherpa

^^ nice bro, i wanted to hear ur take on it. yeah we shall see my twin turbo build is starting in a week or so, so i wanna get opinions on stuff to get ready to make sure my beast is a well oiled machine. thanks IHC

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Thats exactly why I went with 9:1 with the new pistons. 93 plus pure meth should provide me with ample detonation resistance assuming the tune is spot on (which it will be).

Now lets see how much psi it takes to make 420 to the wheels.

I hate cars

Probably an extra psi to get back to where you were.

I'm glad you went that route. Now you have the option of running it on just 91 octane very safely with at least 450whp. You could run on 87 and make "only" 400hp.

It will feel a little more lazy on the bottom end but not too bad.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

With the new ecu, and the ability to tune closed loop and control timing much more effectively, we should be seeing better spool in the low rpms. I think this should more then make up for the loss of low end power....hopefully