pohljm

Turbo 5AT > Turbo 6MT

stirrin it up!

I hate cars

Lol. Once they get the powerbraking issues taken care of, that statement will be very true.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

IMHO, I wouldn't trade my MT for an AT. I grew up on manuals and still love them.

I'm sure an AT is quicker but I'm in it for the fun, not the record .

libert69

iTrader: (7)

why is that?

+1 thanks

tenzingsherpa

libert. congrats on the amazing numbers man . although imho i still think manual is better... ;p.

also libert. there is a guy named bret aka worldononefinger that has a upgraded 5at tranny on v.6.p and if u pm him im sure u can get more info on a upgraded auto since i feel that ur tranny is really gonna need a upgrade soon.

next 1/4 mile times please

phee

iTrader: (5)

you mispelled completion

I hate cars

I may search for him, it should be interesting to see what he did (if anything lol). One question though, is he making 400hp at the wheels and did he ever try the type F fluid? Both of these items are "huge".

BostonSilverTypeS

M3 1-2cars maybe e46 m3..not E92 M3.....


Libert congrats...that car is a monster

even though I am 5at...I would prefer manual over auto anyday.....but with that being said I do believe it is cooler that it's in a 5at instead of 6mt, only because it is rarer and not something that many thought was possible espicially with that much power....maybe in the future if I ever head this boosted route I can change my mind on how I feel about 5at's...Most def give me a reason to hang on to my 5at UA7 now

djtsmith007

iTrader: (1)

Very nice

I hate cars

Everyone has their own personal preference but a turbo coupled to an auto will get down the 1/4 quicker than a turbo and manual with all else being equal. The TL presents unique issues that take some of the advantages away from the auto such as no powerbraking and partially lifting off the throttle between shifts.

jwerks

Just wanted to know how the tranny is holding up and what did you do if anything to prep the tranny for that kinda power.( being a auto )Thanks and great numbers by the way

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I did a quick search of his user name to see if he had any posts/threads regarding his upgraded tranny. I found nothing. Ill send him a message and see what he says. Thanks

Trans is holding up fine. No shuddering or slippage. Partial throttle shifting is smooth and quick. WOT throttle shifting is quick and grabs the next gear great. I use sport shift mode to shift while under full throttle since it guarantees my shift to the next gear. In auto mode the 2nd to 3rd shift doesnt shift and I bounce off the rev limiter and the trans stays in 2nd gear. You can check the turbo thread for full details. Most if us believe it is electrical issue that causes this problem and not a hard part failure since using sport shift under the same conditions poses no problems.

New 3rd/4th gear pressure switches, trans cooler and most importantly type-F atf. Im using amsoil super shift racing trans fluid. It provides much more holding power of the clutches then the z1 since there are no friction modifiers.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I have stayed out of this thread out of respect for Bert, but I need to address some innaccuracies being asserted by the auto crowd being faster than the MT on a drag strip or anywhere else. The MT has several advantages over the auto that make me favor the MT. To start the LSD to put the power down, second the MT has less drivetrain loss and more direct connection to
the wheels. The consistency of knowing the car won't downshift at the wring time or refuse to shift. And lastly the ability to launch the car at a nice rpm to get the most from the traction you have.


I am just giving the view of a MT turbo owner, who can't stand by and let this

I hate cars

An auto turbo car is always quicker than a manual. No exceptions assuming the same setup.

The LSD is the only advantage and with sticky tires that advantage is null.

Drivetrain loss is not a factor in this setup. A few horses among 400 just doesn't matter. Maybe when you only have 220hp total but not anymore.

Shifting in manual mode fixes all of the inconsistancy issues.

You can launch the car at a nice rpm but it's nothing compared to loading it up on the convertor with a few lbs of boost for much more consistant and harder launches. The auto is as easy as mashing the brakes and watching the boost guage and letting off the brakes once the boost is at the right level. An auto will always be more consistant will will always make the most of the traction you have. Manuals produce more shock which is not good for traction or axles.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

To conclude my thought, as a MT owner the only advantages I see to the auto tranny turbo is brakeboosting if that becomes an option and faster shifting under boost with less stress on the parts. The LSD car is gong flat out launch better and handle the power better and the ability to do a hard launch is also going to make the MT's pull all the harder on the AT guys.


In addition let's say the j32 if taken to it's limits makes 500 crank hp the MT's reduced drivetrain loss will mean more WHP. So hp for hp the auto weights more lacks the LSD and eats more of the power. The MT seems like it is always going to be faster.

I hate cars

LOL. Whatever makes you sleep better at night. That's a great theory you have there, too bad it does not apply to real life. I've decided that I can not hand feed information to people such as yourself who already have their minds made up no matter what facts are out there so enjoy your manual trans. You honestly make me want to turbo my 5at so I can beat up on your car.

In closing, what did you run last time out at the track? Oh, that's right, you haven't.

I hate cars

Once again, on sticky tires, the LSD is no longer an advantage, only on street tires. Judging from the video I don't see the 5at spinning the tires out of control so this is just theory on your part.
What the hell, I have a few spare seconds.

Do you honestly think 10hp among 450hp will make a difference?

You have to let off the throttle between shifts and then build boost again after the shift. The auto is at full boost for the entire race. You fall off to stockish hp levels at every shift, the auto is at 400whp for the entire race. Maybe, just maybe this will make up the theoretical 10hp loss of the auto lol. In reality, it means the auto is going to pull you the entire way down the track.

The max hp the J32 can take is going to be determined by who is willing to push the envelope and who is better at tuning. There's no absolute hp number, it's who can push the power without detonation. 1/2lb of boost will more than make up the power difference to the wheels.

The 5at won't need much in the way of launch rpm because it can build boost off the start (as soon as they can start powerbraking). Building boost off the start> higher launch rpm any day of the week.

The 5at does not shock the tires the way the 6mt does. It will always get off the line quicker and with less drama.

I'm done here as this is all well known in the drag racing world. I've put the facts out there, you can go on with the theories all you want.

In reality the 5at is putting down considerably more power than your 6mt so I'm not sure why we're arguing.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

No need to get butt hurt just physics buddy. Who has run two types of FI on their TL's? Not the first time you get mad when some one says your wrong. I know many people on this forum think you are a god and I'm sure you
feel the same way. You have no experience with turbo
TL's, supercharged TL's or MT TL's but somehow you
always have some view that you want to be taken asbtwe word of god. Take this BS to the GN forum where you have some experience to share as aposed to wild generalizations from your other car.

I hate cars

It is your version of physics, not even remotely related to what actually happens in real life.
How many turbo 5at TLs have you driven? I bet it's the same number as myself.

The supercharger is completely irrelevent in this discussion. You're limited to running the turbo only on the 6mt. So let's ask the question, how many 6mt and 5at turbo cars have you run at the track? Answer is 0.

However, I have built and raced many, many turbo cars including turbo manual Mustangs. Everyone in the drag racing world knows the autos are quicker no matter what brand of car it is. The manual transmission guys admit they run a manual for the fun factor and give up some staight line performance. Nothing wrong with that but now you're on here trying to rewrite what has been known for decades.
I'm not interested in your politics so keep them to yourself. This is about drag racing the turbo TL.
My knowledge is average for someone who has been racing and heavily involved in building these cars. I'm far from a God but I'm one of the few that readily share information. There are so many more things I want to share but I can't. I knew from the start there would be a few ankle biters out there, it's to be expected but sometimes it gets annoying.

I get mad when you try and go against not what I think is true, you go against what is a known fact by anyone who has ever been involved in racing. It gets so old having to defend what I know, what I've been involved with and experienced for so many years because one guy who has owned 1 FI car decides to challenge me on the internet. I get mad because you post your theory even with no experience as fact. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it without getting upset. Go back and find one post where I was proven wrong where I got upset. But in this case it's exactly the opposite. I'm right beyond a doubt yet I still have to put up with this stuff and even worse, someone might believe you. Theories are fine, I post theories all the time but I label them as theories and not as facts.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

My point is you have 0 experience with almost anything performance related on the TL, yet you comment like you have been there and done that when you haven't. I have more $$$ under the hood and time In a FI TL than almost anyone on this board, and you don't see me commenting on everything. With younger members coming on theses boards someone needs to bring REAL experiences to the table.

I hate cars

A car is a car. The Tl is nothing special or unique. Most of what applies to other cars applies to the TL. I started on a GN but I've applied it to many other brands of cars. If you think I have not helped with the turbo TL development and tuning, you're sorely mistaken. I have never once said or acted like I've owned a turbo TL. I contribute knowledge on basic turbo setup and tuning.
What does age have to do with anything? I have a lifetime of real experiences. Just because I haven't bolted on a turbo kit to a TL doesn't mean I haven't built and tuned numerous turbo road race cars and 9 second street cars which were not a DIY kit. Don't provoke, if I choose to get into the game you're going to become even more irrelevent around here.

Why do you mind me contributing to these threads? Between that and bringing up how others think of me as a God, you seem a little jealous.


You bolted on a turbo kit. That means you can use basic hand tools. Don't fool yourself, you have brought nothing to the table and money doesn't mean squat.

Where is all of this money invested that you're talking about? Are you talking about the supercharger kit that you sold?

Others on here are pushing the limits, experimenting with ways to spool the turbo quicker, always trying something new and sharing it with others.
Back on topic...

Any auto car will let it build boost off the line. Any car that can build boost off the line has a huge hand up on one that can't and the brand of the car does not matter.

Any auto car with an auto will not have to lift throttle on shifts and that's a huge advantage regardless of brand.

You can't dispute these two huge advantages of the auto so you resort to questioning my experience.

Eoanou

Damn that's awesome, I should have just bought a used TL and slapped a turbo kit had I known the trans would only require fluid upgrade and a new pressure switch.

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

BINGOOOOOOOOO

we have a winner


hi speed...you cant say a MT is faster than an AT because libert was the only one to get off his ass and go to the track

vip_inspire

why no mention of a 2 step ?

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Point is I'm not a drag racer, I didn't go FI to run it at the drag strip. A little SCCA maybe but nothing other than data log graphs to show the how much power I'm making and how well it's being put down.

I am in no way intefering my car is faster than Berts, just that the MT has advantages that make it faster at the same hp level. On are more approprate note I am very happy to see Berts numbers.

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

not to be a dick, but you are contradicting yourself by saying your not faster than a AT, but you say MT has advantages that make it faster

I hate cars

Very good for building boost with an MT on the line. Not sure how hard it would be to implement into the TL.

I hate cars

The one thing I do not want to do is drag Bert into this. He has been nothing but respectful and he's stayed out of the politics. I don't think Hi speed meant anything toward Bert but rather just disagreeing with everything I say as usual which I'm pretty used to.

I hate cars

Your car may very well be quicker around an autocross. I would never argue either way because I just don't know. The 6mt has it's advantages there with or without the turbo.

But you came on here arguing that a 6mt has the advantage in a drag race and specifically off the line which is terribly wrong. It's not to say that a 6mt can't beat a 5at in a drag race but the 5at definately has the advantage with all else being equal.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I have a little over 7000 boosted miles so far. I dont know if thats enough miles to say that only a fluid upgrade is necessary. Maybe when I get closer to 20k we can say for sure

You dont need a 2 step with an auto (if thats what you were referring too). M/T needs the 2 step bc theres no load on the engine to build boost off the line. We havent figured out how to build boost by powerbraking yet with the auto. I have something else I want to try when I get a chance so lets see what happens.

It is hard to figure out new things when your the only person with a turbo 5at. Other members contribute their suggestions on things and I try them. We need a few more turbo autos.

Regarding the 2 step, I believe it can be done using the the "switched 12Vdc" option in the system setup of the fic. It will require a decent amount of wiring and tapping into the ignition coil relay in the underhood fuse box.

Hi Speed/KN, have you data logged how much timing you have while under full throttle? Im pretty sure the m/t runs a few more degrees then the auto allowing it to have more power at the same boost level.

I know KN has not been to the dyno yet but have you Hi Speed? I really dont care about the auto vs manual debate but rather curious of your hp/boost/timing levels

phee

iTrader: (5)

the big point is that you can keep your boost during shifts. that makes the car sooo much faster when going head to head.

ethenol

well obviously he has never driven a big power auto turbo car before he has no idea...... You have much to learn grasshopper

ethenol

ethenol

The ultimate auto monster........................................... ......................15lbs what.....................................Un tuned in this vid before everyone starts bitchin about the afr..............

TLdream

iTrader: (4)

That is completly untrue. I know i am chiming in a bit late, but with the same setup the manual trans car has proven to be faster in my case. These cars are not TL's but i will give a detailed breakdown. Two honda preludes, one 92 autos, one a 93 manual 4ws model. Same turbonetics bolt on turbo kit, same 8 psi boost level. Manual model made ~ 238 whp, auto made ~210 whp. Both cars were run at the track, the manual car ran 13.8 @101mph with 18inch wheels and street tires. The auto ran 14.1 at ~96mph with 15in wheels and street tires. I dont have the time slips in front of me, and this happend about years ago. But for a street car with stock auto trans, same setup/boost levels (not same power) From my experience the manual will be faster. When you get into built auto trans, and same power levels, the autos will be faster.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

WAY more than 1-2 cars on an e46. Should pull an e92 on a roll fairly easily. HP-wise, he's putting to the wheels roughly what the e92 makes at the crank and some 40 more ft lbs torque to the wheels than the e92 makes at the crank. With the added weight of the turbo setup, the cars likely weigh roughly the same.

TylerT

iTrader: (1)

While I agree with your argument, I disagree.

I think I Hate Cars is stating auto is better than manual when you have a car producing some serious horsepower w/ boost ..

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Re read, I'm not talking about me verses Bert.

Bert, I just ordered my new data logger so we will see what timing looks like under boost.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Bert, too bad this thread couldn't stay on topic. Politics and arguments really take away from productive information exchange.

Anyway, I haven't done any serious data logging. Before it got too cold, I took my lower dash and center console out so I can install my Mac Mini. I'm still debating but I think I am going to get one of the Chinese knockoff HDS/HIM.

Have you been able to look at knock data going into the autoenginuity unit? I'm curious what it looks like.

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

i bet they werent 7k easy miles either! lol

btw, atco raceway has test and tune on the 4th, 5th, 11th, and 12th for december. it is about 2.5 hours away, but its a faster track than raceway park, my friend set the m6 record at that track. im down to go either day if u are

atco: 33ft
englishtown: 178ft
according to dragtimes