HT-Spec Stage 4 Big Brake Kit Now Available!
03-01-2011, 05:55 PM
#1
HT-Spec Stage 4 Big Brake Kit Now Available!
HT-Spec Stage 4 Big Brake Kit Now Available!
These…are so cool. Thanks so much to Fastbrakes for helping us assemble this most awesome, street high performance and track worthy brake package.
Link: http://www.heeltoeauto.com/pitboard/?p=942
These…are so cool. Thanks so much to Fastbrakes for helping us assemble this most awesome, street high performance and track worthy brake package.
Link: http://www.heeltoeauto.com/pitboard/?p=942
03-02-2011, 10:08 AM
#4
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I dont really have much experience with brake upgrades but in the front why do the pads only grab about half of the rotor? What is the point in having big rotors when the pads only grab just a little over half of it?
03-03-2011, 09:11 AM
#6
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having the pad cover the most rotor surface is NOT what effectively slows the car down
ap calipers are revolutionary and if you can't get passed that "appearance" of covering "half the rotor" this is not for you
ps. I drove my boys ride with 13" rotors and ap brakes also from fast brakes... lets just say it was sort of like hitting a wall (or air brakes while your traveling at 5mph... the breaking speed is unearthing to say the least)
ap calipers are revolutionary and if you can't get passed that "appearance" of covering "half the rotor" this is not for you
ps. I drove my boys ride with 13" rotors and ap brakes also from fast brakes... lets just say it was sort of like hitting a wall (or air brakes while your traveling at 5mph... the breaking speed is unearthing to say the least)
Last edited by stillhere153; 03-03-2011 at 09:14 AM.
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03-03-2011, 10:22 AM
#8
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Like i said i dont have much experience with aftermarket barkes and i am not Questioning the quality or performance of this setup.
With the very very minimum research i did the braking efficiency would be determined by the clamping power of the calipers and surface area of the brake pads, where it actually contacts the rotor.
So the more clamping power AND more surface area = more performance.
With the very very minimum research i did the braking efficiency would be determined by the clamping power of the calipers and surface area of the brake pads, where it actually contacts the rotor.
So the more clamping power AND more surface area = more performance.
03-05-2011, 11:18 AM
#9
Team Owner
Brake pad area has nothing to do with clamping force or stopping power. With the same pressure applied you will slow down at the same rate with a huge pad or a tiny pad. Pressure is pressure in regards to brakes whether it's spread out over a large area or a small area. Where larger pads are better is longevity of the pad and heat dissipation. A larger pad will have more mass to heat up and it will be spread out better. Cover too much of the rotor with the pads and rotor heat dissipation suffers. To sum up, surface area does not equal better braking.
Lets not forget a BBK does not decrease one stop stopping distances, that's a function of the tires alone. It only reduces the likelihood of fade. If the car stopped in 100' from 80mph before it will stop in 100' from 80mph after. The difference being you can do repeated high speed stops without fade and pedal feel is usually better. The other issue that I ran into with a BBK on the front is more front bias and stopping distances actually increased. The nice thing is how it will stop from 120mph so effortlessly and pedal effort remains the same throughout the stop.
Lets not forget a BBK does not decrease one stop stopping distances, that's a function of the tires alone. It only reduces the likelihood of fade. If the car stopped in 100' from 80mph before it will stop in 100' from 80mph after. The difference being you can do repeated high speed stops without fade and pedal feel is usually better. The other issue that I ran into with a BBK on the front is more front bias and stopping distances actually increased. The nice thing is how it will stop from 120mph so effortlessly and pedal effort remains the same throughout the stop.
03-16-2011, 11:47 AM
#11
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The bigger the rotor, the more leverage the brake pads will have. Also, assuming the brake pad is the same size, it will cover more surface area every time the rotor makes a rotation.
03-16-2011, 11:50 PM
#12
How does this BBK compare to the others in the market?
I'm in the market for a kit, but need assurance that I'm getting the right one.
Also, if I buy a full BBK with front/rear rotors, can I get brembo calipers since I'm changing everything? Sorry if this is a newb question just wanna make sure. What's the pros and cons of having brembo and not having it?
Also what are the difference between the ET500 - ET800 on street use? I don't think I'll ever bring the TL to the track.
Thanks.
I'm in the market for a kit, but need assurance that I'm getting the right one.
Also, if I buy a full BBK with front/rear rotors, can I get brembo calipers since I'm changing everything? Sorry if this is a newb question just wanna make sure. What's the pros and cons of having brembo and not having it?
Also what are the difference between the ET500 - ET800 on street use? I don't think I'll ever bring the TL to the track.
Thanks.
03-19-2011, 11:15 AM
#13
Well, for the money, I think this kit offers about one of the best values out there. The calipers are forged, not billet so they are strong and don''t flex. They do have a universal piston diameter so they are not exactly tuned to the car (only effect is a minor alteration in pedal travel), but to get this feature you have to spend twice as much or more!
Either 500 or 800 is fine for the street but those aren''t offered in this kit. It sounds like you are asking about other HT-Spec kits besides the Stage 4...if you have questions about stages 0-3 then please email support@heeltoeauto.com!
Either 500 or 800 is fine for the street but those aren''t offered in this kit. It sounds like you are asking about other HT-Spec kits besides the Stage 4...if you have questions about stages 0-3 then please email support@heeltoeauto.com!
03-20-2011, 09:51 PM
#14
With a larger pad or more pad in contact with the rotor it seems like you would have more stopping power due to increased friction. If you're applying the same pressure over a larger surface area wouldn't that increase stopping power?
03-21-2011, 01:01 AM
#15
Well, for the money, I think this kit offers about one of the best values out there. The calipers are forged, not billet so they are strong and don''t flex. They do have a universal piston diameter so they are not exactly tuned to the car (only effect is a minor alteration in pedal travel), but to get this feature you have to spend twice as much or more!
Either 500 or 800 is fine for the street but those aren''t offered in this kit. It sounds like you are asking about other HT-Spec kits besides the Stage 4...if you have questions about stages 0-3 then please email support@heeltoeauto.com!
Either 500 or 800 is fine for the street but those aren''t offered in this kit. It sounds like you are asking about other HT-Spec kits besides the Stage 4...if you have questions about stages 0-3 then please email support@heeltoeauto.com!
Leads me to question why you're posting this in the 3G section and/or why is there a typo.
03-21-2011, 07:29 AM
#16
Team Owner
It doesn't work that way. With the same pressure applied by the pistons, the load is spread out with a larger pad. Since its spread out, there's less psi at the pad but due to the larger area you're breaking even with a small pad with less area and more psi. Friction is determined by the pad compound and pressure applied but not the size. There are some advantages ands some negatives to a larger pad but braking power is not one of them.
03-21-2011, 12:47 PM
#17
http://www.heeltoeauto.com/HT-Spec-B...-pr-65760.html
Under Type of car the 04-08 TL is listed
It doesn't work that way. With the same pressure applied by the pistons, the load is spread out with a larger pad. Since its spread out, there's less psi at the pad but due to the larger area you're breaking even with a small pad with less area and more psi. Friction is determined by the pad compound and pressure applied but not the size. There are some advantages ands some negatives to a larger pad but braking power is not one of them.
03-21-2011, 08:26 PM
#19
It's compatible according to this page:
http://www.heeltoeauto.com/HT-Spec-B...-pr-65760.html
Under Type of car the 04-08 TL is listed
I think I understand better, thanks.
http://www.heeltoeauto.com/HT-Spec-B...-pr-65760.html
Under Type of car the 04-08 TL is listed
I think I understand better, thanks.
03-21-2011, 09:19 PM
#20
To those looking for shorter stopping distances, keep in mind big brakes cannot provide you with this. They simply allow increase fade resistance, stiffer pedal feel and better modulation. These are all things important to track driving and not so much street driving. And as the OP stated, this is a universal piston size caliper. This means your ABS/TCS system can be slow to respond to the unexpected change in braking torque at each wheel once the system is activated. Performance testing should be done before and after the install.
I tell you what I would like to see. A rear brake kit for the Brembo 3G's that offers a 2-piston brembo caliper with the same diameter pistons as the stock caliper on the stock rotors. I'm guessing Brembo simply doesn't make the 2-pot caliper with that small of a piston. Oh well. A man can dream can't he.
Last edited by 94eg!; 03-21-2011 at 09:26 PM.
03-21-2011, 10:00 PM
#21
Team Owner
I think Stoptech is the only one that actually uses less overall piston area to counteract the longer lever arm of the larger rotor and retain factory balance. My Rotora 13" kit slid bias forward which sucks but running a very high friction compound on the rear helped a little. I've been meaning to do testing with the ABS disabled to see exactly where the bias is. Usually a hard J turn and hitting the brakes with the ABS fuse pulled will show you which end tends to lock up first.
The only gray area here is the EBFD. I've purchased a couple white papers on it since I could find no definite answers from people in the business or Google. Now I have a slightly less vague idea but I still have a ton of questions.
What I know for sure is if EBFD is disabled, you're rear biased. What I failed to learn is if it can adapt to stiffer suspensions that will allow a little more weight on the rear axle during hard braking. Also not sure if it will compensate for stickier tires. Some systems measure front tire slip vs rear tire slip and adjust pressure accordingly. That also makes me wonder if we're talking miliseconds to "learn" and adjust to changes in the suspension or tires or if you should do a few hard braking events to let it adjust.
I'm not sure what it's function is under maximum braking. I can see it's purpose as an electronic proportioning valve during normal stops where the rears car work nearly as hard as the fronts. Maybe they can even give you an initial rear bias right as you stab the pedal before the weight transfers. But at max braking it would seem like the ABS would have the final say in braking force.
It is scary having more front bias just from the viewpoint of stability control. If the tail gets out there and it pulses one of the front brakes with a larger rotor and more piston area, not sure what would happen. I can say for sure that ABS is a little more violent with the BBK. It's a welcome change because I think this system is way too conservative as is.
What I do know is measured stopping distances went up slightly with the installation of my Rotora kit. Haven't measured with the higher friction rears but it feels like it stops harder now. I've had the rear pads completely fade when bedding in the front race pads and the rears do make a larger difference than I thought even in a car with 65% of it's weight on the front tires. At first I couldn't figure out why I was hitting ABS but the car wasn't stopping as quick as normal. Then I saw the smoking rears.
Everything is a trade off. With the stock 5at brakes from a 120mph stop, I would have to start applying more and more pressure throughout the stop and brake feel and modulation was practically non existent. With the Rotoras, they feel the same whether it's a 120mph stop or the 4th 120mph stop. But for a street car, that extra 4' quicker stopping distance of the stock brakes could be the difference between a close call and an accident. Anyone going with a front BBK, I would think about at least a higher friction rear pad to retain stock stopping distances.
The only gray area here is the EBFD. I've purchased a couple white papers on it since I could find no definite answers from people in the business or Google. Now I have a slightly less vague idea but I still have a ton of questions.
What I know for sure is if EBFD is disabled, you're rear biased. What I failed to learn is if it can adapt to stiffer suspensions that will allow a little more weight on the rear axle during hard braking. Also not sure if it will compensate for stickier tires. Some systems measure front tire slip vs rear tire slip and adjust pressure accordingly. That also makes me wonder if we're talking miliseconds to "learn" and adjust to changes in the suspension or tires or if you should do a few hard braking events to let it adjust.
I'm not sure what it's function is under maximum braking. I can see it's purpose as an electronic proportioning valve during normal stops where the rears car work nearly as hard as the fronts. Maybe they can even give you an initial rear bias right as you stab the pedal before the weight transfers. But at max braking it would seem like the ABS would have the final say in braking force.
It is scary having more front bias just from the viewpoint of stability control. If the tail gets out there and it pulses one of the front brakes with a larger rotor and more piston area, not sure what would happen. I can say for sure that ABS is a little more violent with the BBK. It's a welcome change because I think this system is way too conservative as is.
What I do know is measured stopping distances went up slightly with the installation of my Rotora kit. Haven't measured with the higher friction rears but it feels like it stops harder now. I've had the rear pads completely fade when bedding in the front race pads and the rears do make a larger difference than I thought even in a car with 65% of it's weight on the front tires. At first I couldn't figure out why I was hitting ABS but the car wasn't stopping as quick as normal. Then I saw the smoking rears.
Everything is a trade off. With the stock 5at brakes from a 120mph stop, I would have to start applying more and more pressure throughout the stop and brake feel and modulation was practically non existent. With the Rotoras, they feel the same whether it's a 120mph stop or the 4th 120mph stop. But for a street car, that extra 4' quicker stopping distance of the stock brakes could be the difference between a close call and an accident. Anyone going with a front BBK, I would think about at least a higher friction rear pad to retain stock stopping distances.
03-24-2011, 06:23 PM
#24
I think Stoptech is the only one that actually uses less overall piston area to counteract the longer lever arm of the larger rotor and retain factory balance. My Rotora 13" kit slid bias forward which sucks but running a very high friction compound on the rear helped a little. I've been meaning to do testing with the ABS disabled to see exactly where the bias is. Usually a hard J turn and hitting the brakes with the ABS fuse pulled will show you which end tends to lock up first.
The only gray area here is the EBFD. I've purchased a couple white papers on it since I could find no definite answers from people in the business or Google. Now I have a slightly less vague idea but I still have a ton of questions.
What I know for sure is if EBFD is disabled, you're rear biased. What I failed to learn is if it can adapt to stiffer suspensions that will allow a little more weight on the rear axle during hard braking. Also not sure if it will compensate for stickier tires. Some systems measure front tire slip vs rear tire slip and adjust pressure accordingly. That also makes me wonder if we're talking miliseconds to "learn" and adjust to changes in the suspension or tires or if you should do a few hard braking events to let it adjust.
I'm not sure what it's function is under maximum braking. I can see it's purpose as an electronic proportioning valve during normal stops where the rears car work nearly as hard as the fronts. Maybe they can even give you an initial rear bias right as you stab the pedal before the weight transfers. But at max braking it would seem like the ABS would have the final say in braking force.
It is scary having more front bias just from the viewpoint of stability control. If the tail gets out there and it pulses one of the front brakes with a larger rotor and more piston area, not sure what would happen. I can say for sure that ABS is a little more violent with the BBK. It's a welcome change because I think this system is way too conservative as is.
What I do know is measured stopping distances went up slightly with the installation of my Rotora kit. Haven't measured with the higher friction rears but it feels like it stops harder now. I've had the rear pads completely fade when bedding in the front race pads and the rears do make a larger difference than I thought even in a car with 65% of it's weight on the front tires. At first I couldn't figure out why I was hitting ABS but the car wasn't stopping as quick as normal. Then I saw the smoking rears.
Everything is a trade off. With the stock 5at brakes from a 120mph stop, I would have to start applying more and more pressure throughout the stop and brake feel and modulation was practically non existent. With the Rotoras, they feel the same whether it's a 120mph stop or the 4th 120mph stop. But for a street car, that extra 4' quicker stopping distance of the stock brakes could be the difference between a close call and an accident. Anyone going with a front BBK, I would think about at least a higher friction rear pad to retain stock stopping distances.
The only gray area here is the EBFD. I've purchased a couple white papers on it since I could find no definite answers from people in the business or Google. Now I have a slightly less vague idea but I still have a ton of questions.
What I know for sure is if EBFD is disabled, you're rear biased. What I failed to learn is if it can adapt to stiffer suspensions that will allow a little more weight on the rear axle during hard braking. Also not sure if it will compensate for stickier tires. Some systems measure front tire slip vs rear tire slip and adjust pressure accordingly. That also makes me wonder if we're talking miliseconds to "learn" and adjust to changes in the suspension or tires or if you should do a few hard braking events to let it adjust.
I'm not sure what it's function is under maximum braking. I can see it's purpose as an electronic proportioning valve during normal stops where the rears car work nearly as hard as the fronts. Maybe they can even give you an initial rear bias right as you stab the pedal before the weight transfers. But at max braking it would seem like the ABS would have the final say in braking force.
It is scary having more front bias just from the viewpoint of stability control. If the tail gets out there and it pulses one of the front brakes with a larger rotor and more piston area, not sure what would happen. I can say for sure that ABS is a little more violent with the BBK. It's a welcome change because I think this system is way too conservative as is.
What I do know is measured stopping distances went up slightly with the installation of my Rotora kit. Haven't measured with the higher friction rears but it feels like it stops harder now. I've had the rear pads completely fade when bedding in the front race pads and the rears do make a larger difference than I thought even in a car with 65% of it's weight on the front tires. At first I couldn't figure out why I was hitting ABS but the car wasn't stopping as quick as normal. Then I saw the smoking rears.
Everything is a trade off. With the stock 5at brakes from a 120mph stop, I would have to start applying more and more pressure throughout the stop and brake feel and modulation was practically non existent. With the Rotoras, they feel the same whether it's a 120mph stop or the 4th 120mph stop. But for a street car, that extra 4' quicker stopping distance of the stock brakes could be the difference between a close call and an accident. Anyone going with a front BBK, I would think about at least a higher friction rear pad to retain stock stopping distances.
12-02-2011, 11:20 AM
#26
so not sure if this is a jack of the thread but what tires would enable us to stop in less distance? is it the material of the tire, size (width), or the pattern? I was looking at getting bigger rotors for my brembo fronts but from all the threads realized it wont do much other than aesthetics.. still going to get either slotted or drilled to help with heat.. but do not see a benfit in size.. other than heat.. but there is only so much you can dissipate
12-02-2011, 12:30 PM
#27
Safety Car
For example, I am currently in love with Michelin PS2 tires. When you read the reviews (tirerack.com) for Michelin PS2, people whine and moan about the poor thread life. But those that are in-the-know, we rave about the traction (including braking).
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FCVadi (12-02-2011)
12-02-2011, 01:36 PM
#28
^Bingo. Remember it's the tires that actually stop the car. Brakes only serve to work the tires just like the motor for accelerating. If you can lock up your tires (or hit ABS), you have plenty of brake torque.
Slots & drills do not help with heat. Slots only serve to keep the pads clean and increase bit. Drills actually don't do anything.
Slots & drills do not help with heat. Slots only serve to keep the pads clean and increase bit. Drills actually don't do anything.
12-07-2011, 07:46 PM
#30
I tell you what I would like to see. A rear brake kit for the Brembo 3G's that offers a 2-piston brembo caliper with the same diameter pistons as the stock caliper on the stock rotors. I'm guessing Brembo simply doesn't make the 2-pot caliper with that small of a piston. Oh well. A man can dream can't he.
12-10-2011, 12:42 PM
#31
BTW, the AP/Fastbrakes kit pictured above is for sale... http://heeltoeauto.com/gallery/index...ITEMS/IMAG0913
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