thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Need to borrow a programmer to swap ecu?

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I see, forgot you have features of the ecu disabled even if you setup a stock tune. Are you running a MT ecu with your Flash Pro?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I am.

Since I got into this shortly after Hondata released it for the TL and couldn't find a used MT anywhere, I bought one from an online dealer brand new.

Thanks! I have a HIM that I used to pair it the first time so I hope it goes smoothly the other way. But if I run into issues, I may contact you!

6spd-GERCO

Not Acura/Honda but it's worth a look for the boosted guys and tuning philosophy. Interesting points later in the clip.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

You should be fine if you have the hacked software.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Great post. I looked up more of his (Steve Dinan) videos on youtube and that guy is a freakin mastermind on the performance aspect of engines! Thanks for the video.

flexer

Just put my j35a8 on E70 and its running great. I did it to see if the random pinging I hear is detonation or just something rattling. The knock sensor was picking up next to no knock, but from my experience if you can audibly hear it, than it should be PEGGING that knock sensor.

Interesting thing is on E70 there is no way in hell I'm going to detonate if I run the same ignition map. Initial tests show no detonation from the knock sensor but I will occasionally still hear the same detonation sounds from the motor......

Currently confused and will need more time to test all this.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Run water/methanol like this guy <<<--

DomGSR-T

iTrader: (1)

Watermeth would save your engine for sure and tuning the flashpro would save it too

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

I think the noise is something else. I agree - on E70 there should be no knock. With the higher octane and added cooling benefit, there's something else making noise.

Since you are on E70, if you do street datalogs, do you see a performance gain when adding timing? You should - even N/A I was seeing an extra HP or 2 with every degree of timing I added (until it started knocking like crazy, lol.)

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Did you readjust fuel tables after switching fuels? Not that I feel that this could cause continual detonation issues with the same motor but it COULD be running much leaner now and this has been known to cause knock with healthy doses of timing.

Also, are there specific cylinders knocking or random? Either way, you could try reducing overall timing in the problematic area to see if the knock counts subside or stop.

This would, of course, really all depend on how far away the engine was from MBT to begin with. It's very common to see higher gains in power if it was setup/tuned wrong or even if significant changes were made to the engine while running stock ignition tables.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

In my case, it was a bone stock car. I just kept seeing more power on the dyno when i added a degree or two.

flexer

You guys have got to be kidding me right? Are you suggesting while running E70 that I should run some water meth on my N/A car running a timing curve on 91 pump and it will save my motor? lol! I'm just going to assume you guys didn't read my post or don't understand what E70 is.

I'm just going full disclosure with what I'm doing and my thought process to help people out. Well hell since we are going full disclosure I will tell you the other fun stuff I do.

Before starting to tune a BMW E46 the other night it was getting slight knocking, just like a stock TL or RL will do, so we went down and got some E70 and we blended our own E30. We drained the tank and filled the bimmer up and let it idle while watching the fuel trims. It added 16% to the long term fuel trims and we went for a drive for 10 min. After letting the ecu learn even more we did a wot pull. AFR was in the mid 12's the whole time and guess what.....all the knock went away. No surprise really. This was on the stock ECU with NO TUNING. I would bet this would work for all the stock TL + RL ECU guys out there as well. I then stuck the car on E70 and added 2 degrees of timing across the board and set the A/F value to be a solid 12.8 when at wot. Owner doesn't want to pay for a dyno so I left it.

More info for fun. On my Lotus super 7 I can run an ethanol percentage of E40-E70 on 30 pounds and I get no knock. Start going under E40 and I just barely get a little at peak torque. Conclusion. Mixtures of E40 on up are amazing.

Back to the J35a8 since that's what you all care about here anyway. As I stated before. When I went to E70 the sound basically went away but I will still occasionally hear it. I will post my timing curve later. With the E70 on my pump gas timing curve there is NO WAY it is knock but this is interesting.......I still get the most noise coming from cylinder 6. I am currently taking logs daily and working on dialing in each of my cylinders knock threshold. Can you do this on hondata?

DOMGSR-t, I am on an AEM infinity, not hondata.

flexer

younggun - Of course I adjusted the fuel tables when I went E70. You have to. I started the car on the pump gas map just to see if it would start and it did but A/F was off the gauge. Read solid 18 A/F so who knows what it really was and car died shortly after. WAIT THIS IS A FULL DISCLOSURE POST. I didn't actually change the fuel table. The infinity is VE based tuning so I actually just changed the A/F stoic value. Wait that is not totally true as well. The car is full flex fuel so the sensor actually moved the A/F value for me, but I then manual told the ECU to ignore those values so that I would stay on the pump gas ignition map. I tune cars as a side job, just for some background info.

I really should post LESS details because this might be confusing for some people.

Also I appoligize that I am posting this info in a flashpro thread, but I thought we all could collaborate together since it is the same motor

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

The thing with ethanol fuel is you lose driving range and it's harder to find. Running 91-93 Oct with water / meth on my NA car. So Oct is around 110-120. If I run out I can just buy -20 washer fluid and a 4 pack of heet. Currently using boost juice since I am lazy to mix my stuff by weight. Getting 30mpg + hwy on the setup though

Just wondering is there a cel when you ran the aem Infiniti?

flexer

There would be TONS of CEl's if you ran an Infinity. Your stock dash won't work either unless you want to decode the stock CAN bus system, and this will only work on a Manual Tranny car. I will be able to report later if I'm able to get the infinity to control the SH-AWD.

What system and size nozzle are you using with your water meth set-up?

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Using the aquamist HF-2? It's. Been a while since I was using it. I think the injector size are 0.3 or 0.4 I don't remember off the top of my head. I would love to run e85, but WV is pro coal and diesel Fuck everything else. "Rolling coal much?" so there no where to refill until I get out to OH, PA, or VA. The aquamist has its own control system and is triggered by pulse width of the Injector. When it turns on it usually drops temp below ambient. On a bad day it will bring down IAT temp 10-20*F below ambient when injecting. Domgsr-t tuned my car and then I got it Dyno tuned, and he fine tuned the dyno map.

DomGSR-T

iTrader: (1)

I know exactly what is E70 and if you still hear knocks than then yes you need to tune and lower the timing for sure. Stock J35 maps have too much timing for 91 octane gas. Yes we can play with ignition/fuel trim per cylinder and this is very usefull on NA and boosted Jseries. The 6th cylinder is not one that get's the most knocks usually but if your car does then remove 1-2 deg on that one and see how it goes.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

That explains why you would be getting minimal gains. To performance based engine tuners, 1-2 degrees below max power is considered by most to be a conservative tune because it allows safety in the event of error or miscalculation in the tune. The factory is known to go a bit further below this margin by another 1-2 degrees in today's engines for a total of 3-4 degrees below max power. And since we all know that the 1-2 degrees before knock threshold doesn't offer much power to be gained at all, the 3-4 degree margin may gain 2-4hp per degree but only on the first 1-2 advanced. If that all made any sense...

Sorry I hated to have to ask that but I've learned to never assume even the most simplest things. That's actually a hard learned lesson due to many years in diagnostics in the automotive industry. Such as assuming another technician at the shop before me routed ignition wires properly, etc.

Though I'm not familiar with any AEM products, I'll use basic tuning knowledge to carry through with this discussion. So basically you have a flex fuel based EFI system that was making automatic AFR adjustments based on fuel type only but left the ignition tables alone but you were running that lean even after having chose to have the ecu ignore the E70 fuel tables? And you were running pump gas ignition tables too? I'd say obviously the ignition values from the pump gas tables were safe for your test regardless of which fuel you went with given the supplied octane level didn't fall below the pump gas octane level is was originally set for (91 or 93?). But I'm struggling to understand what the hell would be happening with the fuel situation since the ecu was supposedly ignoring the E70 values but why was it required to make adjustments here to run the engine if they were just going to be ignored anyways, lol? What table was it running from then because the extremely lean AFR tells me that it COULD have still be running that E70 regardless of your decision to ignore. In order for me to go any further here, I would first need to know more about the logic of the ecu itself and how it responds or reacts to these types of scenarios.

My point here was either the E70 tables are still being ran OR it's actually running hella LEAN! Which is it and how were you able to decide....if at all?

As for the apology on the subject matter: unnecessary! Keep it coming!

Also, could you give response to my suggestion on ignition cylinder trimming and why this wouldn't make the matter much easier!? Just seems like a simpler solution to your problem IMO. Maybe the sensitivity of your knock sensor is set too high and just needs to be adjusted? Have you tried forced knock on a cylinder to set the proper sensitivity?

flexer

Sorry I confused some people. The AEM Infinity gives me control over EVERYTHING so I can do some crazy stuff that may not make sense when typed out.

Youngun to summerize without explaining how I did it, I am running a perfectly tuned E70 map, but running my 91 pump gas timing map. I did this to tune the knock sensor. Any knock that shows up at this point is just garbage and not real. I'm doing this to dial in the thresholds.

DomGSR-T - I am seeing the most knock on cylinders 5+6 it seems with occasionally 1. Others have said the same. Do you notice a certain cylinder is prone to knock more than others on your tunes?

Agree the factory timing map is very aggressive and causes the car to knock on 91 pump. I would bet you could get away with it much easier freeing up the exhaust as much as you can, but I am currently tuning on a Fully stock J35a8 with all the cats and everything. Only "mod" is a j37 intake manifold and 74mm throttle body. Also I am at 4,650 feet of elevation so remember my air is thin.

flexer

Notice 6+1 on this run were "noisy". I noticed I took a pic of the ethanol timing map which isn't even really set -up. Those values a +2 degrees in areas. Also car is not boosted so nothing tuned above 92 kpa since I can't get above that at my altitude.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

I see you are running 32 degrees at WOT redline, are you 100% stock? That's 7 degrees more than stock timing (25 ) and may explain why you are seeing knock activity on cylinders 1 and 6...even with E70. I'm running a J35 with J37A4 heads with a large plenum intake and I'm maxed on knock thresh at 27 degrees. I was hoping to gain maybe another degree from adding in PCD's and large diameter j-pipe into a custom 3" exhaust.

Have you read your plugs recently after any runs on that ignition map and if so, their condition?

DomGSR-T

iTrader: (1)

It's more 24-25 degree sir... look at the 100kpa... not sure if it's low or high cam but on the low cam it's too much for 91octane

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

I'm not use to that unit of measurement but after converting it, I see you are correct.

I forgot to mention I especially like the individual cylinder knock signals given rather than a count as shown by Hondata. Very cool and would be a useful tool for sure, especially for those who street tune like myself.

Dom, I believe you mentioned that the factory knock sensitivity tables are set too high. What approach do you take in adjusting this table? Lastly, being someone who e-tunes, you are in essence a street tuner by proxy. How safe do you feel your method of tuning is in something more extreme such as forced induction or nitrous applications? I ask because there have been moments in my tuning experience where I've been live streaming data and noticed knock to the point where had I not been actually monitoring it right then, I could've very well caused damage. Thoughts?

DomGSR-T

iTrader: (1)

On UTAH Type-S car, the knock that the flashpro see now match those that the driver hears and so far we have cure 95% of the knock and the timing was raised from before. I noticed that the good knock sensitivity settings are the same on boosted and NOS and NA. If you want I can take a look at you map and see how it is. 2 heads are better than one


Same goes for Flexer... I have played with Aem standalones for 9-10 years now so I can help you too...

flexer

Youngon, your not looking at it right. Those cells are only accesable with my foot off the gas and even then I don't know if I can pull enough vacuum to get them.

DomGSR-T. This is the Ethanol timing map as stated. Other map is about 2 degrees less so on pump gas it is usually right around 21 degrees timing at MBT. I will go out and post a picture of my pump gas map when I have time today just so we clear that confusion up and you can see the pump gas map.

I only tune certain ECU's and AEM is by far my best. Started tuning it in 2003 and have really enjoyed their products.

DomGST post up a photo of a typical timing curve on the J motors you have tuned. As I said I will post my pump gas ign map instead of the ethanol one since that doesn't really apply to a lot of you. Also I agree with you on dialing in the knock sensor. I have almost got it to the point I feel really good about it.

flexer

This is the ign map I was running on pump 91. For future people that find this map it is not dyno or road tuned at all. This is the ignition timing I guess at based on other N/A motors I have tuned.

Dom does this still look to aggressive for what your seeing?

Grand_hustle17

Question.. How do you prevent flashpro from updating on its own?.. And when it does how do i get the old software back?

DomGSR-T

iTrader: (1)

Just don't install once the update windows pops? And why would you use old version?

DomGSR-T

iTrader: (1)

You don't have the low cam and high cam option right with the AEM? I don't have it on my integra with aem ems so it must be the same for the Infinity... is there a way to add around 2 degrees when the vtec kicks in? because you should aim to 21-22 in low cam and 24-25 in high cam with 91 octane...

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

I'm interested in running Flashpro on my 06' RL (J35A8) & have read that i would need to convert to the 07-08 Auto TL-S engine harness/ecu plus have a jumper harness made.

I did some browsing for prices for a brand new harness & came across that the auto TL-S has the same engine harness as the RL.

Auto TL-S: 32110-RDB-A50
RL: 32110-RJA-A50

If this is the case why would I need to spend money on a new harness? Couldn't I just grab an auto TL-S ECU and repin the RL engine harness so that it's plug in play?

Any input would be appreciated.

Keep it going guys

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

So I've been comparing ECU pinouts for the 07' TL-S Auto vs. the 06' RL. They are about 98% the exact same, some colours are off but they still lead to the same place.

There are 4 wires though that don't mesh:

Connector A:

TL-S # 13 - BLANK
RL # 13 - LT BLU (RFC RLY) - Rad fan control relay

Connector B:

TL-S # 10 - GRN (FANH) - Rad fan control relay high
RL #10 - BLANK

Though they are on different connectors they still lead to the fan control relay so a quick repin would solve that.

Connector E:

TL-S # 14 - BLANK
RL # 14 - RED (KLINE) - Data link connector

TL-S # 31 - BLANK
RL # 31 - GRN (METINH) - Gauge Assembly

Those 2 on connector "E" are the only things that the TL-S pin out doesn't have compared to the RL. Still trying to find out where in the gauge #31 goes to but I'll find it eventually.

I think its a safe assumption that the Auto TL-S ECU can work and run the RL. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

With the exception of the radiator fan control module outputs, yes, the TLS ecu is nearly 100% identical with the RL ecu. However, my concern was always in the SH-AWD system the RL possesses and its ability to work with the TLS ecu. Though I'm pretty damn certain the SH-AWD system operates as an independent setup, I'd hate to find out the RL ecu has some form of hardware or software that enables it to operate in harmony with the SH-AWD.

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

Here's a paragraph from the RL Powertrain Overview from Honda.com

2006 Acura RL - Powertrain - Honda.com

Electronic Controls and Parameters

The logic and control of SH-AWD is integrated with the RL Engine Electronic Control Unit (ECU), and Vehicle Stability Assist ECU. The Engine ECU provides engine rpm, intake manifold pressure, and transmission gear ratio data. The VSA ECU provides data on lateral g, yaw rate, wheel rotation speed and steering angle. The SH-AWD ECU monitors the status of the acceleration device and the right and left Direct Electromagnetic Clutch torque. Traction is calculated based on the information from the engine ECU. During an acceleration situation, lateral g and steering angle are used to set the torque split between the right and left rear wheels. At the same time, this data is used to control the acceleration device.


So the RL ECU provides engine rpm, intake manifold pressure, and transmission gear ratio data. Everything else comes from the VSA ECU and the SH-AWD ECU to make it all work as well as it does on the RL. So I don't see any reason why the TL-S ECU couldn't do the exact same thing.

Guess I'll have to be the guinea pig here..

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

My hope was that one day Hondata would give FP compatibility to work with the 2g RL so that I could buy one and then boost the shit out of it.

But FP uses ecu part numbers to check validity and the RL's ecu obviously has a different part number. Wouldn't be nothing to change the programmed VIN to a TLS VIN and all but as far as I know, there's no way to get around the part number itself.

flexer

Correct. There is no low cam or high cam ignition timing table. Also I doubt that I can add much timing with it being stock and all 3 cats present, but I won't know till I switch back to 91 pump. I will change back once I finish dialing in all my knock settings to perfection on the E70.

flexer

From the wiring diagram on the RL, the ECU communicates with the gauge through "RL # 31 - GRN (METINH) - Gauge Assembly" and from the gauge it goes back to the rear SH-AWD ECU. This is how you can see the AWD display on the gauge as the rear ECU communicates back through the CAN about what it's doing. For your project to work you would have to see if a TL-S ECU is ouputing anything on pin#31 to communicate with the gauge cluster.

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

# 31 on the TL-S is blank, so not outputting anything.

Is the SH-AWD display a determining factor? I can survive without the display, barely use it anyways.

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

My thoughts exactly..

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

When I have time this weekend I'm going to depin # 31 on connector E from the RL ecu and try running the car to see what happens. It's as close to running a TLS ecu as I'm gonna get till I grab one. Hope for the best.

I did manage to source an Auto 07' TLS ecu for $120 & there's someone selling a used Flashpro local for $500...