FlashPro- J-Series tuning info, advice and discussion thread
06-23-2015, 05:34 PM
#121
Correct. There is no low cam or high cam ignition timing table. Also I doubt that I can add much timing with it being stock and all 3 cats present, but I won't know till I switch back to 91 pump. I will change back once I finish dialing in all my knock settings to perfection on the E70.
Can you control the intake ''runners'' opening?
06-24-2015, 08:28 AM
#122
06-25-2015, 08:42 AM
#124
They are gone. I removed them so that they are basically open all the time. From what I could tell on dyno graphs of other J motors this cost me around 15 ft/lbs under 3800 RPM, but I didn't have an option if I wanted to have the outputs I need. I didn't think it would take that many inputs and outputs to drive it. I was going to use a dpdt relay and see if that worked built from a 12x12 reference table with rpm on the X-axis and the 0-5v position input on the Y but without an H-bridge, but if it did require pwm, than I could have added the H-brdige circuit to handle it.
The low end torque would have been nice, but with a j35 in such a small car it already feels amazing.
The low end torque would have been nice, but with a j35 in such a small car it already feels amazing.
07-24-2015, 12:17 AM
#125
Originally Posted by FamilyGuy
Does anyone know what type of sensor a knock sensor is?
The knock sensor is a piezoelectric device. There is circuitry in the ECU to filter the signal. Generally speaking, Honda or the ECU supplier tunes the filter response so that only knock frequencies are passed. I'm not implying that the filter response is perfectly tuned. Most likely it is a low order filter to keep the cost down.
09-28-2015, 10:56 PM
#126
Anyone have enough experience and/or knowledge to explain a few things that are unclear on modifying the overrun injector cut/restart tables on FP?
I'd love to gain more aggressiveness in tuning this motor before taking it out for a dyno run!
I'd love to gain more aggressiveness in tuning this motor before taking it out for a dyno run!
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heyitsnickk (02-15-2016)
10-02-2016, 07:48 PM
#130
The terrible popping backfiring on deceleration, adjusting this out suggestions GO
10-03-2016, 09:00 AM
#132
completely eliminate it
10-03-2016, 02:59 PM
#136
That second video makes me want to jamb screwdrivers in my ears LOL (I'm and old fart though)
10-03-2016, 06:25 PM
#138
10-03-2016, 10:00 PM
#140
Alright so there's a few things that can cause the overrun to begin producing noise and I'll assume for the time being that this isn't because something in the calibration was changed or edited. Generally speaking, it's other factors such as temperature, different parts, new fuels (octane & pump gas season mixes), etc that cause the issue to begin out of no where. Especially if the car has been modified with some means of forced induction as this tends to amplify any of those that were listed to change the most influential factor: MAP pressure. More specifically, MAP vacuum at deceleration.
If you look in FlashPro, you will see tables listed under the "Throttle" tab of which most have the term "overrun" somewhere in the title. The ones we are mainly interested in are the bottom four that are titled MAP high & low cam cut and recover. First of all, verify that all of these tables are not modified in any way by comparing them to a stock TL configuration. There shouldn't be ANY values that are below .138 bar or above .195 bar. If you have any of the values below or above the ones stated, go back and edit them to where they match the factory calibration. And do this in all RPM columns.
Once you have confirmed that any values that were different from the stock calibration are restored, upload the calibration and road test. If the problem is still present or if the values matched that of the factory calibration, it will be necessary to go back and edit these numbers slightly to change the points at which overrun is turned off and on. Beginning from the very bottom table (which is labeled "overrun cutoff map high cam recover"), start by reducing all values in all columns by .01-.02 bar at a time, and do this all the way up to the table that's labeled "overrun cutoff map low cam cut". Except you will not decrease values on all tables, it will be something like this instead:
* Overrun cutoff map high cam recover: decrease all values at all RPMs by .01-.02 bar
* Overrun cutoff map high cam cut: increase all values at all RPMs by .01-.02 bar
* Overrun cutoff map low cam recover: decrease all values at all RPMs by .01-.02 bar
* Overrun cutoff map low cam cut: increase all values at all RPMs by .01-.02 bar
Once you've made these changes, upload, road test and repeat if necessary until all the overrun noise has been eliminated.
If you think changes may have been made to your calibration by someone, go back and compare anything that pertains to "overrun" in any of the tabs and change them back to factory settings. Don't worry about this creating any issues or problems with the tune itself in regards to its accuracy or power, overrun has nothing to do with these things at all. Let me know if that doesn't work for some reason or another.
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UTAH TSX (10-04-2016)
10-08-2016, 02:41 PM
#141
Wondering what everyone's timing retard per pound of boost is? Also, does everyone follow the same ignition timing from the factory tables (just scaled down for boost) or has anyone played with adding/removing timing in certain areas while in boost?
As for myself, I've noticed that there are certain areas where Honda pulls timing such as max torque area (around 5000-5200 RPMs for 3.5l) and also other areas like right before VTEC and where the IMRC actuates. I'm not sure if this is done to either soften any effects from the VTEC/IMRC or just to reduce cylinder pressures at max torque to aid in knock prevention but I've done some experimenting. As some of you may know, I tune my own car and this is done on the street, not a dyno. I decided to try and see if there's any hidden power not only all over the tables, but also in these specific areas of 'timing dip'. So I began adding timing very slowly (1/2* at a time) and then using datalogs to check time losses or gains in the area of the table that was modified. Here's what I found:
* In all three areas of the ignition tables where timing is pulled from, adding approximately 1-2 degrees of timing bad definitive improvements in power.
* Using e85, most of the ignition table (boost columns) will provide the greatest power improvement in power at an average of 3-4* advance over factory ignition table values. Research in other forums and discussions mention that a 1-2* increase is the average when using e85 as fuel. For me, adding only 1-2* of timing actually caused my engine to become less responsive and only slightly quicker (again, based on datalogs...no butt dyno).
* Using a 3.5l with a 6262 turbo and again, e85 as fuel, full boost comes in hard at 3700 RPMs. No matter what strategy I've tried and used, I have been unsuccessful in improving this. I'm not sure if this is because I'm already using ideal fuel/ignition strategy or if it's another factor I'm not seeing but again, no improvement has been made. Observations show that it takes very little advance (average 1-2*) from MBT to greatly impact spool response negatively. Contrarily, I was able to go as much as 5* retard before making the same negative impact. So obviously, ignition retard is preferred much more for spool up than advance, which is no surprise to anyone that is familiar with tuning.
* Advance in nearly all areas of the boost columns could be raised from MBT anywhere from 1-3* with no apparent reduction in power but only if each increment in advance was met with a richer AFR. Usually between .15-.20 of a point enrichment specifically. However because no improvement in power is made, timing was brought back down to MBT since this not only lowers knock onset threshold, but is also less stressful to the engine since it requires less negative work from the mixture pushing against the piston on its journey upwards. This tells me that's it very possible additional power was being made but due to passing MBT, there are no advantages to be had in harnessing the power gained. This is just an observation and may or may not help anyone in tuning.
* What's interesting to me is flame travel speed of ethanol is about 15-20% faster than gasoline even though it's octane is much greater. Higher octane fuels are generally known to be slower burning. Research on this matter shows that ethanol is ONLY faster burning than gasoline in low cylinder pressure conditions such as idle or part throttle. But when engine load increases, the increases pressures change the burn rate of ethanol and actually cause a significant reduction in flame speed. If this didn't happen, e85 would be a shitty fuel for forced induction and actually require the timing to be retarded in boost. My reasoning for explaining this phenomenon is that e85, at lower engine loads, it does NOT require ignition advance and runs perfectly fine using gasolines ignition mapping. Some of my research shows that it's better to remove timing in low load areas which is part of the reason why e85 was chosen to be used in newer flex fuel vehicles as this reduction in timing advance takes away from the negative workload of an engine thereby increasing its fuel efficiency as well as its long term durability.
Would love to get some feedback from others on your own experiments or observations while tuning please!
As for myself, I've noticed that there are certain areas where Honda pulls timing such as max torque area (around 5000-5200 RPMs for 3.5l) and also other areas like right before VTEC and where the IMRC actuates. I'm not sure if this is done to either soften any effects from the VTEC/IMRC or just to reduce cylinder pressures at max torque to aid in knock prevention but I've done some experimenting. As some of you may know, I tune my own car and this is done on the street, not a dyno. I decided to try and see if there's any hidden power not only all over the tables, but also in these specific areas of 'timing dip'. So I began adding timing very slowly (1/2* at a time) and then using datalogs to check time losses or gains in the area of the table that was modified. Here's what I found:
* In all three areas of the ignition tables where timing is pulled from, adding approximately 1-2 degrees of timing bad definitive improvements in power.
* Using e85, most of the ignition table (boost columns) will provide the greatest power improvement in power at an average of 3-4* advance over factory ignition table values. Research in other forums and discussions mention that a 1-2* increase is the average when using e85 as fuel. For me, adding only 1-2* of timing actually caused my engine to become less responsive and only slightly quicker (again, based on datalogs...no butt dyno).
* Using a 3.5l with a 6262 turbo and again, e85 as fuel, full boost comes in hard at 3700 RPMs. No matter what strategy I've tried and used, I have been unsuccessful in improving this. I'm not sure if this is because I'm already using ideal fuel/ignition strategy or if it's another factor I'm not seeing but again, no improvement has been made. Observations show that it takes very little advance (average 1-2*) from MBT to greatly impact spool response negatively. Contrarily, I was able to go as much as 5* retard before making the same negative impact. So obviously, ignition retard is preferred much more for spool up than advance, which is no surprise to anyone that is familiar with tuning.
* Advance in nearly all areas of the boost columns could be raised from MBT anywhere from 1-3* with no apparent reduction in power but only if each increment in advance was met with a richer AFR. Usually between .15-.20 of a point enrichment specifically. However because no improvement in power is made, timing was brought back down to MBT since this not only lowers knock onset threshold, but is also less stressful to the engine since it requires less negative work from the mixture pushing against the piston on its journey upwards. This tells me that's it very possible additional power was being made but due to passing MBT, there are no advantages to be had in harnessing the power gained. This is just an observation and may or may not help anyone in tuning.
* What's interesting to me is flame travel speed of ethanol is about 15-20% faster than gasoline even though it's octane is much greater. Higher octane fuels are generally known to be slower burning. Research on this matter shows that ethanol is ONLY faster burning than gasoline in low cylinder pressure conditions such as idle or part throttle. But when engine load increases, the increases pressures change the burn rate of ethanol and actually cause a significant reduction in flame speed. If this didn't happen, e85 would be a shitty fuel for forced induction and actually require the timing to be retarded in boost. My reasoning for explaining this phenomenon is that e85, at lower engine loads, it does NOT require ignition advance and runs perfectly fine using gasolines ignition mapping. Some of my research shows that it's better to remove timing in low load areas which is part of the reason why e85 was chosen to be used in newer flex fuel vehicles as this reduction in timing advance takes away from the negative workload of an engine thereby increasing its fuel efficiency as well as its long term durability.
Would love to get some feedback from others on your own experiments or observations while tuning please!
11-15-2016, 04:20 PM
#142
I haven't been able to get catalyst and egr to complete. I read that STFT and LTFT can influence catalyst readiness and I have Dom doing the maps for me and said that I should seek advice from others for the emissions testing side of things.
Right now, the STFT is -50/47.08 and LTFT is 0/0.
If I look at my logs, the STFT is only changing withblips to the throttle. Nothing long in duration and 0 during the 1800-redline 3rd gear pull.
Does anyone have any recommendation or if there is a rule of thumb for the trim values and will making a change to the LTFT from 0/0 alter the work Dom has done for me?
Thanks
Right now, the STFT is -50/47.08 and LTFT is 0/0.
If I look at my logs, the STFT is only changing withblips to the throttle. Nothing long in duration and 0 during the 1800-redline 3rd gear pull.
Does anyone have any recommendation or if there is a rule of thumb for the trim values and will making a change to the LTFT from 0/0 alter the work Dom has done for me?
Thanks
11-15-2016, 05:09 PM
#143
Double check to make sure the EGR and secondary 02 sensor are enabled on my kids car the EGR gets ready first time you coast to a stop from 40-50 mph and the secondary sensors must be on and driven on the freeway until the cat is ready it takes about 5 miles at least to complete
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KN_TL (11-15-2016)
11-15-2016, 05:33 PM
#144
Short term fuel trims are what tells you how much fuel is added/subtracted with regard to the values in the fuel tables.
The ECU, only in closed loop, will adjust fuel to keep the ratio around stoichiometric. If it adds fuel, then that is positive
fuel trimming. If it removes fuel, then that is negative trimming. When the fuel maps are dialed in correctly, then you
should never see more than a few percent on the trims.
A short term fuel trim value that is 50% off indicates a massively incorrect value(s) in the fuel tables. And yes, that could
prevent the readiness code from setting. You need to dial in the fuel maps.
The ECU, only in closed loop, will adjust fuel to keep the ratio around stoichiometric. If it adds fuel, then that is positive
fuel trimming. If it removes fuel, then that is negative trimming. When the fuel maps are dialed in correctly, then you
should never see more than a few percent on the trims.
A short term fuel trim value that is 50% off indicates a massively incorrect value(s) in the fuel tables. And yes, that could
prevent the readiness code from setting. You need to dial in the fuel maps.
The following users liked this post:
KN_TL (11-15-2016)
11-15-2016, 06:16 PM
#145
Double check to make sure the EGR and secondary 02 sensor are enabled on my kids car the EGR gets ready first time you coast to a stop from 40-50 mph and the secondary sensors must be on and driven on the freeway until the cat is ready it takes about 5 miles at least to complete
Short term fuel trims are what tells you how much fuel is added/subtracted with regard to the values in the fuel tables.
The ECU, only in closed loop, will adjust fuel to keep the ratio around stoichiometric. If it adds fuel, then that is positive
fuel trimming. If it removes fuel, then that is negative trimming. When the fuel maps are dialed in correctly, then you
should never see more than a few percent on the trims.
A short term fuel trim value that is 50% off indicates a massively incorrect value(s) in the fuel tables. And yes, that could
prevent the readiness code from setting. You need to dial in the fuel maps.
The ECU, only in closed loop, will adjust fuel to keep the ratio around stoichiometric. If it adds fuel, then that is positive
fuel trimming. If it removes fuel, then that is negative trimming. When the fuel maps are dialed in correctly, then you
should never see more than a few percent on the trims.
A short term fuel trim value that is 50% off indicates a massively incorrect value(s) in the fuel tables. And yes, that could
prevent the readiness code from setting. You need to dial in the fuel maps.
I was wondering if long term was preventing my readiness from completing but it sounds like it's the 2nd sensor being disabled.
11-16-2016, 07:00 PM
#146
Double check to make sure the EGR and secondary 02 sensor are enabled on my kids car the EGR gets ready first time you coast to a stop from 40-50 mph and the secondary sensors must be on and driven on the freeway until the cat is ready it takes about 5 miles at least to complete
Thanks.
11-19-2016, 04:41 PM
#147
Here's some basic information that I copy and pasted from Alldata pertaining to the the emissions system readiness statuses and how they are completed and checked. Before investing any more time into the problem, I'd follow these procedures word for word and see if it makes any difference in the matter. I've literally had cars (Volvo is one of them) come into the shop and require me to 100% abide by the Oem written readiness monitor completions procedures to enable the car to pass state inspections so I've learned to do these things first.
If doing these things do not work, let me know and I'll help as much as I can in figuring out the issue with you. Remember, this is literally what I do for a living.
And to Eric, well said on the fuel trim matter. I'm always surprised to see how many people either have no clue as to what trims actually are or they flip the positive/negative thing in regards to how the ECM managers the values. Without fuel trims, diagnosing most (if not all) drivability issues at the shop would be impossible to do.
***How to Set Readiness Codes***
Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) Indication (In relation to Readiness Codes)
The vehicle has certain "readiness codes" that are part of the on-board diagnostics for the emissions systems. If the vehicle's battery has been disconnected or gone dead, if the DTCs have been cleared, or if the ECM/PCM has been reset, these readiness codes are reset to incomplete. In some states, part of the emissions testing is to make sure these codes are set to complete. If all of them are not set to complete, the vehicle may fail the emission test, or the test cannot be finished.
To check if the readiness codes are set to complete, turn the ignition switch ON (II), but do not start the engine. The MIL will come on for 15 - 20 seconds . If it then goes off, the readiness codes are complete. If it flashes five times, one or more readiness codes are not set to complete. To set readiness codes from incomplete to complete, do the procedure for the appropriate code.
***Catalytic Converter Monitor and Readiness Code***
NOTE:
***EGR System Monitor and Readiness Code***
Enable Criteria
ECT SENSOR 1 at 176 °F (80 °C) or more.
Procedure
If doing these things do not work, let me know and I'll help as much as I can in figuring out the issue with you. Remember, this is literally what I do for a living.
And to Eric, well said on the fuel trim matter. I'm always surprised to see how many people either have no clue as to what trims actually are or they flip the positive/negative thing in regards to how the ECM managers the values. Without fuel trims, diagnosing most (if not all) drivability issues at the shop would be impossible to do.
***How to Set Readiness Codes***
Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) Indication (In relation to Readiness Codes)
The vehicle has certain "readiness codes" that are part of the on-board diagnostics for the emissions systems. If the vehicle's battery has been disconnected or gone dead, if the DTCs have been cleared, or if the ECM/PCM has been reset, these readiness codes are reset to incomplete. In some states, part of the emissions testing is to make sure these codes are set to complete. If all of them are not set to complete, the vehicle may fail the emission test, or the test cannot be finished.
To check if the readiness codes are set to complete, turn the ignition switch ON (II), but do not start the engine. The MIL will come on for 15 - 20 seconds . If it then goes off, the readiness codes are complete. If it flashes five times, one or more readiness codes are not set to complete. To set readiness codes from incomplete to complete, do the procedure for the appropriate code.
***Catalytic Converter Monitor and Readiness Code***
NOTE:
- Do not turn the ignition switch off during the procedure.
- All readiness codes are cleared when the battery is disconnected, if the DTCs have been cleared, or if the ECM/PCM is reset with the HDS.
- Low ambient temperatures or excessive stop-and-go traffic may increase the drive time needed to switch the readiness code from incomplete to complete.
- The readiness code will not switch to complete until all the enable criteria are met.
- If a fault in the secondary HO2S system caused the MIL to come on, the readiness code cannot be set to complete until you correct the fault.
- ECT SENSOR 1 at 158 °F (70 °C) or more.
- IAT SENSOR at 20 °F (-7 °C) or more.
- Vehicle speed (VSS) reads more than 25 mph (40 km/h) .
- Connect the HDS to the vehicle's data link connector (DLC), and bring up the READINESS CODEs screen for Catalyst in the DTCs MENU.
- Start the engine.
- Test-drive the vehicle under stop-and-go conditions with short periods of steady cruise. After about 5 miles (8 km) , the readiness code should switch to complete.
- If the readiness code is still not set to complete, check for a Temporary DTC with the HDS. If there is no DTC, one or more of the enable criteria were probably not met; repeat the procedure.
***EGR System Monitor and Readiness Code***
Enable Criteria
ECT SENSOR 1 at 176 °F (80 °C) or more.
Procedure
- Connect the HDS to the DLC.
- Start the engine.
- Drive at a steady speed with the A/T in D position or M/T in 4th gear, 50 - 62 mph (80 - 100 km/h) or above for more than 10 seconds .
- With the A/T in D position or M/T in 4th gear, decelerate from 62 mph (100 km/h) or above by completely releasing the throttle for at least 5 seconds . If the engine is stopped during this procedure, go to step 3 and do the procedure again.
- Check the OBD status screen for DTC P0401 in the DTCs MENU with the HDS.
-
- If it is passed, readiness is complete.
- If it is not passed, go to step 3 and retest
11-19-2016, 09:21 PM
#148
Thanks Robert.
This was probably my last day to try and get the readiness codes to set so I could get it inspected because the bottom is going to drop out weather wise so I am going to store it tomorrow.
But so I have some historical data to fall back on, here is what I did the last 2 nights.
Night 1.
Set 2nd O2 sensor on and Misc settings to the following:
Was able to get catalyst readiness to set but threw P0498. EVAP and EGR not complete.
Night 2.
Was noting in the Hondata CAN adapter instructions to do the following:
Switch off:
Fuel pump control error P0627
Second ECT sensor Evap leak error P0455
Evap VSV error P0498
Coolant thermostat test P0128
Use secondary coolant temp sensor for fan control
Also set the trim values to:
Drove the same loop, back to catalyst and EGR not set.
I logged the runs and trims were still next to nothing which is a testament to Dom's tuning ability. I have zero knock and drivability is excellent.
One thing I am considering is changing back to the original ECU and injectors just to get it inspected. But would need to build some injector adapters to go from the ID1000 CANUS connector to the HX 090 connector on the stock injectors. Would also have to pull the CAN Bus and move the immobilizer wire back to the original location. I'll have a few months to think about and gather the connectors.
This was probably my last day to try and get the readiness codes to set so I could get it inspected because the bottom is going to drop out weather wise so I am going to store it tomorrow.
But so I have some historical data to fall back on, here is what I did the last 2 nights.
Night 1.
Set 2nd O2 sensor on and Misc settings to the following:
Was able to get catalyst readiness to set but threw P0498. EVAP and EGR not complete.
Night 2.
Was noting in the Hondata CAN adapter instructions to do the following:
Switch off:
Fuel pump control error P0627
Second ECT sensor Evap leak error P0455
Evap VSV error P0498
Coolant thermostat test P0128
Use secondary coolant temp sensor for fan control
Also set the trim values to:
Drove the same loop, back to catalyst and EGR not set.
I logged the runs and trims were still next to nothing which is a testament to Dom's tuning ability. I have zero knock and drivability is excellent.
One thing I am considering is changing back to the original ECU and injectors just to get it inspected. But would need to build some injector adapters to go from the ID1000 CANUS connector to the HX 090 connector on the stock injectors. Would also have to pull the CAN Bus and move the immobilizer wire back to the original location. I'll have a few months to think about and gather the connectors.
04-17-2017, 11:30 AM
#150
Update on my readiness code issue.
I built a set of adapters to go from USCAR (ID1000) connectors to HX090 (stock) connectors, installed the stock injectors and reconnected my stock ECU. I did not change any of the connections to the DLC that was needed for the newer ECU and Flashpro.
After re-pairing the immobilizer, idled for a couple minutes, jumped on the interstate, drove about 5 miles, let off the gas at the first offramp and slowed to 15mph, all but Catalyst was set, Drove one more exit, pulled codes, all readiness codes are set!!
I have to pull everything off once a year anyway but now I have a known solution to do the pairing so I will just swap injectors and ecu once a year to pass inspection.
I built a set of adapters to go from USCAR (ID1000) connectors to HX090 (stock) connectors, installed the stock injectors and reconnected my stock ECU. I did not change any of the connections to the DLC that was needed for the newer ECU and Flashpro.
After re-pairing the immobilizer, idled for a couple minutes, jumped on the interstate, drove about 5 miles, let off the gas at the first offramp and slowed to 15mph, all but Catalyst was set, Drove one more exit, pulled codes, all readiness codes are set!!
I have to pull everything off once a year anyway but now I have a known solution to do the pairing so I will just swap injectors and ecu once a year to pass inspection.
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