mishar

Of course not. It is just compromise in order to get more power at higher rpm without changing anything else.

More power at all rpm you can get if by supercharger, turbo, larger displacement, higher compression rate, porting and polishing.

ussi

iTrader: (1)

i think he was talking about cam gears there and not cams...

looks like i should get my car back tomorrow or tuesday, my blower need to be put back in along with other minor things.

i have a dyno scheduled for the following week tentatively so i'll def post up then..

Accord_V6_400m

iTrader: (1)

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

if you alter the intake lobes only, i would think you would see a torque increase across the whole band.

I hate cars

I thought this was a SOHC motor.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

it is.

mishar

If you have more aggressive camshaft you will gain power at higher rpm and loose at lower. Vtech makes it possible to find a way around that because it use different lobs for low and high range, so if just high range lobes are more aggressive range up to 4500 rpm wont be effected. But We do not know if that is the case with Type S camshafts.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

right, but what you could do is not touch the exhaust and vtec lobes, just the primary/secondary intake lobes, and you should see an increase in torque down low, but probably not across the whole band.

mishar

You are right about that you can play with low and high range intake lobes, but it has to be done with engine on the bench, testing it after every change. Having different camshafts available is another problem. And at the end, that is exactly what Honda engineers did for months, if not years, before they relished engine for production. I believe that they did everything to get the most of low range power/torque because that is what luxury car needs. High range lobes are there just to make us happy from time to time, not to say from ticket to ticket. That is only area where I sea that we can make some improvement. One might say: well Honda engineers did that too, but I would say yes, but they had to think about reliability and warranty and we can take some risks there and go for higher rpm.

Pictures of Base and Type S camshafts would be useful.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

you are right. def power gains up top. but i'm still convinced there is room for torque on low end. example, RSX cams have shown both:


also, the RL shows a more aggresive cams on the primary/secondary intake side of the cam where as VTEC/Exhaust was left a lot closer to CL-S spec.

mishar

I like those diagrams. Hopefully we would get similar gain. 10% are big. But which camshaft?

By the way, Honda should fire some engineers.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

Toda cams. with a higher level of engine management, the RSX w/ bolt-ons has seen upwards of 50 hp w/ other cams.

mishar

The clue could be in that engine management. In order to maximize mileage engines are running a bit on a lean side. About 5% less fuel than ideal mixture of 14.5:1. But if you want to show power increase all around you can enrich mixture up to 15% above ideal for maximum power. It is easy to imagine what would that do to your mileage.

I hate cars

Leaner is almost always faster. You can have different ratios for idle, cruise, acceleration, and WOT. The manufacturers almost always program the car to run a little on the rich side at WOT for protection. 14.7:1 is for ideal catalytic convertor performance.

3rdGenHybrid

ill have to disagree with your whole statement, for one thing....you can use adjustable cam gears on a stock motor and still get a big diffrence in power gains, but using it with an aftermarket cam is even a bigger plus, and you still need rough intake ports in your head even thought its fuel injected and has 2 intake valves,its all about how the air and fuel mix...you can't just throw air in a cylinder and shoot fuel in it and let it ignite, you need a consitent pattern of air flow for a car to run smoother....it takes physics, race heads dont even polish the intake ports...

HQTL6SPD

so in conclusion, because our cars have v-tech we won't lose low end power? <4500

jdmspec333

adjustable cam gears do make a difference with stock cams. i have experienced it myself firsthand. and the ideal a/f for a tuned n/a car is variable from 13.5:1 - 12.5:1. that's just based on my tuning vehicle experience. i say it varies because of compression ratios, manifold runner shape and length, head porting, thottle body dia, exhaust header shape and diameter, intake air temp, ambient air temp, coolant/thermostat operating temp, etc., i could go on, but i won't. leaner than the factory 14.7:1 stoich makes more power, but too lean will increase the cylinder temperature and melt your rings and pistons and possibly cause detonation. too rich will make you lose power, build up excessive carbon in the engine and cause blockages in the egr passages and on the exhaust valve.

jdmspec333

oh and mirror polishing a head is a big no-no. i do recommend smoothing out the casting imperfections in the ports, and somewhat smoothing out the port, but definitely not polishing the port. i do support mirror polishing (extrude honing) the intake manifold. especially on a short fat taper runner manifold. mirror polishing a cylinder head could actually disrupt the fuel atomization and result in a poor combustion property. you actuall have to get the right formula for velocity down if you want to get everydrop of power out of your engine. if you wanna get more technical than that, you'd want to talk to machinists with flowbench experience. i recommend r&d dyno and portflow.

mishar

No. Just the opposite. 12.5:1 gives most power. And some smoke too.

mishar

I would not agree. Racing engines I have seen, up to Formula1, had mirror polished intake and exhaust channels. It prevents turbulence in order to aspirate more air. They are using higher fuel pressure for better fuel dispersion.

ussi

iTrader: (1)

So after 3 weeks i finallly got it back.

My car runs great! my low end power loss (due to bent valves) is gone.

Procats are in, my car sounds different, at startup and through rpm ranges - 1-4k, i didn't take it past that just because i wanted to let everything settle in.

Progress RSB is a very nice upgrade, you can tell its really stiff. i would say the difference is just as noticable as upgrading stock 6MT to CT bar.

Can't tell what difference TL-S cam and port/polish job, Tb Spacers, and bigger valves is going to do without looking at the dyno, and even still since i did everything at once i guess i won't know whats doing what...wish i knew the true effect of the port/polish and cams...

dyno next week iA...

ACTROS

iTrader: (7)

congrats man, you should be running better than ever now, just watch those shifts now ;-))

ACTROS

iTrader: (7)

browsing the King Motorsports site I found this http://www.kingmotorsports.com/category.aspx?cat=5
Their head works...........I'm just throwing this in

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

have you ever used extrude hone? i have. they do not 'mirror' polish, it appears that way because it is so smooth, but the lower runners where the injectors sit are actually very finely grained which is perfect.

Black_05_TL_6SP

You do NOT mirror finish the intake ports on the head!! Big NO NO. It is counter productive to the way air flows. It actually slows the intake charge down, and you do not want this. I have done some port and polish work, and did a lot of research and questioning before I did it.

With a little bit of surface imperfection, it starts to build a swirl of air against the walls; it keeps build this swirl as it goes to the center of the chamber, where the velocity of the air is at its greatest. If there is no imperfection, then you do not get the swirl and air velocity is not sped up.

jdmspec333

i have used extrude hone. and if you did too, then you know what i meant. it's by no way in comparison to hand porting or cnc machining. extrude hone comes out way smoother. but you should know that too.

jdmspec333

but anyway, congrats ussi! hope it works out all well. just got my tl-s cams today, gonna send em in to the machine shop. i asked my machinist to measure the cam specs before putting them in. hopefully i get the numbers posted tomorrow.

mishar

I know about that theory. It just does not conform to science. It is more like garage smart marketing.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

i've seen hand polishing turn a mirror finish, literally. it just takes a lot of time and bits. but i will stand by the fact that the extrude hone did not leave the lower runners in a mirror finish. i got a level 2 fyi, not sure if that matters, shouldnt.

I hate cars

$200+ for adjustable cam gears on a stock motor that might, after running it on a dyno and tweaking them give you 5hp and a loss in low end torque? If you guys are that hard up for hp, go for it. IMO not worth it. Also, are you going to raise the revlimiter? Anyone know how high these things can rev safely?

As for the ports, intake manifold can be mirror polished on an injected car. Exhaust ports on the heads get mirror polished mostly because carbon is less likely to build up. I leave my intakes with a very smooth finish but not a mirror finish because the gains are not worth the time. I would have no problem doing it if I had the time. Swirl and velocity are determined by the volume, size, and shape of the port as well as a million other things like rpm and total airflow. If you need to leave your intake ports rough to get a little turbulence, maybe you need to get a different head. Maybe I should try sanding the back side of my intake valves with 60 grit sandpaper after the backcut for better turbulence lol.

To the guy who said race heads do not have polished intake ports.... Dead wrong. Ever see the ports of a top fuel or top alcohol head? I worked at a place that did the porting so I've seen it first hand.

To think, my street legal, smog legal V6 only put down 602rwhp and 620lbs of torque, imagine what I could've gotten with super rough intake ports. I might just try putting the stock untouched heads back on so I can pick up some more power.

3rdGenHybrid

[QUOTE=To think, my street legal, smog legal V6 only put down 602rwhp and 620lbs of torque, imagine what I could've gotten with super rough intake ports. I might just try putting the stock untouched heads back on so I can pick up some more power.[/QUOTE]

ussi

iTrader: (1)

i'm still getting a pinging sound supposedly from the knock sensors still...i didn't hear it, but my tech says he heard during the test drive...

any ideas on what i should do about it? octane booster?

mmcv6

ussi----

hey bud, its michael who bought your old comptech. Give Doug a call and ask him, he should be able to help you if it is in regards to tuning. You feel me? You should not have to use a booster. What is your wideband a/f? mines rich....
anyways ask Doug also since he will play with your toy.. hehe

rjricenbeans

The pinging could be caused by a number of issues. Without knowing your exact setup, it is difficult to pinpoint the actual cause. It is either "detonation"caused by an erratic form of combustion or "pre-ignition" which will cause the air/fuel mixture to ignite before the spark plug is able to fire. You said you didnt hear it... mild or occasional detonation can occur on almost any engine as wont cause any harm. But it really depends on how severe the ping is because prolonged detonation will cause harm to the motor.

A few things to check would be the ignition timing.. since the TL-S cams may be more aggresive than the standard TL cams, the timing of the ignition may differ to the point when the intake/exhaust valves open and close. Im not completely sure, but i think our ignition system is completely reliant on the ECU. Either way, in theory the knock sensor should pick this up and retard the timing accordingly.

Check the air/fuel... a motor running too lean will cause a lean misfire. A few things could cause this so double the vacuum lines, intake manifold gaskets, and anything that cause leaks of fuel.

Check spark plugs. If you havent changed them yet, maybe you could try a colder plug. Tip: copper spark plugs have a broader heat range.

Check engine temp... heat can cause the air/fuel mixture to ignite prematurely.

Could also be Sharp edges on valves that were reground improperly (not enough margin left on the edges).

ussi

iTrader: (1)

I have tentative plan to meet with him next week so i'll def let him know. not sure what my a/f is...

Thanks for your input. before i got my car fixed i had a leak and detonation was def. a problem. when the heads were pulled i saw some deterioration on one of the cams, so far i haven't heard the pinging so i'm hoping its not an issue

ussi

iTrader: (1)

Problem..

if i'm in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd gear and accelerate slowly between 1500-2500 rpm i can hear a slight 'grinding' noise. i don't know how to describe it, its not really grinding per say but i can hear some contact in something that is rotating. Its only there when accelerating slowly between 1500-2500 and while decelerating during those rpms when i keep it in gear. any ideas??

3rdGenHybrid

at or 6mt?

ussi

iTrader: (1)

^- 6mt

3rdGenHybrid

nvm...just read ur first post....ummm....is it a grinding noise? or rotational noise? metal to metal?....could be alot of things....Pilot bearing could cause a noise...not too much of a grinding noise....but where do you ehar the noise the most?

ussi

iTrader: (1)

^- a rotational noise, like something is rubbing. metal on metal would sound really nasty so i doubt its that. its not really grinding, i can definetly tell its from something spinning or turning in the engine. does not sound like a belt rubbing...its coming from the engine bay..