pimpin-tl

Calling names now huh?

Well, that's interesting the car doesn't have a MAF. I stand corrected on that. Never knew that. Then tell me this. Cars need a sensor to register a/f. Where and what is it that does this on the TL? Either way, AIR is still turbulent and causes loss of low end. Nothing changes the facts I linked and proved you wrong yet again.

Bender

TL's have a small wizard that lives in the engine near the TB, he measures the AF by waving his wand.

I'm sure you can get the real answer with google or a haynes manual.

pimpin-tl

Found it. It does have a MAP sensor not a MAF.

http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/...All&vinsrch=no

So yes it has a sensor.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

EITHER BOTH OF YOU IGNORE EACH OTHER OR HAVE A CIVIL CONVERSATION.

You know who I'm referring to.

Bender

I bought the K & N filter after I took out the baffle in the stock piping. I tell you I noticed very little, if any gains at all during acceleration.
I think I noticed more when I sanded my TB a bit.
Maybe I can tell on highways speeds during acceleration that the car breaths better and takes less effort to make power, But I would not say any credit is due to the filter element. It is the tubing that is less restrictive.
I will take the K&N out in the future and put it in the trash.

CSWBiggs

just buy the stock filtech units...

-Jason

Bender

So, are you saying that a cai with poorly designed piping will produce less low end torque than the stock piping and thus lowering your acceleration from a stop?

Or is it all cai's will rob you of power at low ends?

Izzy-Type-S

iTrader: (1)

Another couple questions since we seem to be getting some pretty strong opinions here. So I have been contemplating getting a CAI...what do you guys recommend to not get a loud raspy metal sound out of it, just something subtle for performace. Also, was thinking of getting a short-ram & getting a different hood with an opening on the drivers side to create more air flow into the engine bay. Opinions?

Bender

Short ram's are great if your in motion because of the air entering the engine bay. Once you stop they suck in hot engine bay air and cause poor acceleration even with a vented hood. They are cheaper for a reason. Not worth it IMHO.

Izzy-Type-S

iTrader: (1)

Thanks. I just feel that the TL hood needs something subtle to make it a tad more aggressive. If I altered it, I would want it to be functional. I'll decide in a couple months.

I hate cars

It has a MAP manifold absolute pressure sensor. It is in no way related to a MAF. This is called a speed density system and airflow is calculated based on the MAP, rpm, throttle position, etc. Flow is not measured. Turbulence makes no difference to this system. This is as basic as it gets.

TRIOD3SIGNS

OP..... dont get a KN OEM replacement filter.... Just remove the stock resonator. You will be way HAPPY. Sound does interesting things to the soul.... maybe even a percieved 2 or 3 HP gain.... But in the end its just sound...

I know exactly what u are trying to do..... take small steps & get there the way you wana get there. But trust me, removing the stock resonator is FREE & if your not happy with it, put it back. NO HARM - NO MONEY - NO FOUL. then if you wana do a CAI, do it after this.

Bender

You can even put a cone filter on the end of the stock pipe and take out the stock filter in the box. Bingo you just saved 130 dollars.

pimpin-tl

If you say so....article I found says otherwise.

Bender

I don't think you will ever want to put it back. Just unbolt it and saw it off then pull like hell to get it out.

I hate cars

Since we're being civil, what part are you disputing. Maybe we can figure it out.

Toddy

iTrader: (5)

eriddler

Bender, actually a lot of fighter jets have restricted intakes. Some are due to radar signature issues, but others (such as the F-15) have moving ramps that will restrict (slow down) air flow for the engine to use. This is primarily as the speed increases. The F-15 has 5 ramps on each inlet that move constantly to adjust for AOA, airspeed, density, etc. The ramps can also compress the airflow a bit, again based on what the computer determines the engine needs to operate without a compressor stall/stagnation.

Just my

jdjohn84

It seems that 'pimpin' is addressing air flow issues AFTER the TB (inside the IM), whereas 'i hate cars' is talking about issues BEFORE the TB.

Some other interesting points that I have read, and please correct me if I have misunderstood.
'i hate cars':
a. the stock pre-TB intake is not a bottleneck in these cars.
b. cold air is the best benefit; high-flow pre-TB is not beneficial (due to 'a').
c. turbulence is not a concern in these cars.

'pimpin':
a. turbulence is a concern.
b. stock plenums and runners are specifically engineered to best suit these engines due to the oscillating properties of the air flow within the IM.

Did I get that right?

What I don't understand is how high-flow, turbulence-reducing customizations/modifications like plenums, spacers, bored/ported TB, runners, and intakes increase power if pre-TB air flow and turbulence don't matter. The thermal benefits of using spacers is not in question, but they are also supposed to reduce turbulence as well. Do they really help with that, or would thermal gaskets alone be enough?

jdjohn84

I'm sure we've all heard of the restrictor plates in NASCAR as well. They slow them down.

I hate cars

That pretty much sums it up.

A. The filter and plumbing to the TB is practically invisible to the engine, it has little to no restriction in stock form. Raise the airflow requirements significantly and it will become a restriction. Just keep in mind a 3" inlet is more than enough for 400hp.
B. Cold air is the only benefit you're going to get from a CAI since restriction pre-TB is not there. Don't get me wrong, if the TL used a 1" pipe or a 5" filter there would be gains in flow.
C. Turbulence is a concern but the air goes through so many transistions and venturies that worrying about the flow pre-TB is just pointless.

As it transitions into the runners and makes a run to the intake port in the heads, a nice smooth flow of air is required. But the TB is a valve the restricts air in itself and causes turbulence, even at WOT. Then it hits the plenum where things slow down slightly and at that point you need to start caring about turbulence.

Another misconception, fuel injected cars don't need turbulence like carbureted cars did to keep the air and fuel in suspension. FI can benefit from a smooth run from the runners to the heads. Any combustion chamber turbulence should be managed by the head design but you want it smooth up to that point.

I hate cars

Yes they do. But if the stock intake tract poses no restriction, it can't reduce power.

jdjohn84

So, in your opinion, are spacers (TB and IM) worth it for reducing turbulence? Thermal gaskets can keep the TB and IM cooler, but they are much cheaper than spacers.

I hate cars

I would never spend the money on them. Turbulence isn't reduced. There are claims of increased plenum volume which of course is true but I wouldn't pay $200 for a piece of metal that makes no measurable hp.

The IM and TB are going to heatsoak after 15 minutes anyway. Everything under the hood from the heads up are going to end up at about the same temp whether they have spacers or not. With two catalytic convertors, j-pipe, and the radiator underhood, everything will stabilize after a while. Isolating the IM from the heads or TB from the intake does nothing when you have 250 degree air blowing over everything.

I'm just not big on these types of mods and especially the gains claimed and the asking price.

Cutting off the flow of water to the TB is probably the most effective way of knocking down temps.

jdjohn84

Good points. For spacers, I haven't really bought into the increased air volume or turbulence reduction myself, but I might be able to justify $25 each for a couple of thermal gaskets. I see your point about the heat under the hood, but again, the gaskets are a lot cheaper than the spacers. I probably need to clean the EGR port anyway, so while I'm at it, the thermal gaskets wouldn't hurt. And the coolant bypass is kind of a no-brainer. Do you just cap the TB outlets, or run a short do-nothing hose between them?

You did endorse the cold(er) air, so why even bother with that if the heat soak is happening anyway? You mentioned something about modifying your airbox to grab cooler air from below. I'm assuming without a CAI. What exactly did you do? Thanks for your responses.

WRXtranceformed

As usual, IHC has good info overall. Those of us who have had or have heavily modified cars tend to learn stuff like that from research and trial and error Unfortunately I bought a K&N filter for this car in a moment of cashburn and it's sitting on my floor now because I decided it wasn't worth the extra air flow on this car.

If you pull off your bumper, you'll see the stock intake silencer plumbing. You can remove the majority of it and hack it off at a piece of piping that sucks up air from the fender well and draws it directly into the airbox. You'll see what I'm talking about, or do a search on this board for silencer removal. It's the same concept as a CAI except that it's free.

Bender

I have read here that routing the coolant from the TB can result in lower mileage. Is this a myth?

TorqueSteer

If u guys are concerned about air turbulence there is an easy fix for that:

www.tornadoair.com

Not only will u gain in MPG but combined with a drop in K&N u'll gain 15-20hp. Add to this a recalibrated transmographer relay module with retuned forword drive thrust rod acumulator bushings and u'll be seeing over 50hp at the wheels.

The interesting thing is that the first mod i did to the car was a cai but the only thing i gaind was a cool sound. This can be done for free with the removal of the stock air silencer. No need to blow $300. Sure i might have picked up 4-5hp but thats not something one would feel on a 270hp car. I guess the stock intake isn't all that restrictive. I swaped out the oil soaked wire cone with a dryflow filter........hmmmm....maybe thats where i lost the real hp gain from the set up?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I think you're confusing it with moving the IAT sensor from the stock location to the CAI.