Closed-loop fuel enrichment
09-13-2010, 04:08 PM
#124
damn ur running alot of boost on stock block 3.2
. i know paul informed me that my/our j-series block(since i have 3rd gen tl block, except i have all forged internals) is limited to 12-13 psi max(without sleeving), anything higher and ur pushing it, and will start experiencing "cylinder walk"(plus the toothpick rods that are in the stock tl engine don't help either). since u wanna run 10-11psi, i say listen to ihc and make sure, i mean 100% sure ur meth with afr is running alright, cause raising the boost plus already lean afr spells death unless u got that meth spot on.
just be careful man, good luck and i wanna see dyno #'s
. i know paul informed me that my/our j-series block(since i have 3rd gen tl block, except i have all forged internals) is limited to 12-13 psi max(without sleeving), anything higher and ur pushing it, and will start experiencing "cylinder walk"(plus the toothpick rods that are in the stock tl engine don't help either). since u wanna run 10-11psi, i say listen to ihc and make sure, i mean 100% sure ur meth with afr is running alright, cause raising the boost plus already lean afr spells death unless u got that meth spot on.just be careful man, good luck and i wanna see dyno #'s
why? 10psi for me is likely to make around 370-380whp and 300ish wtq
09-13-2010, 04:15 PM
#125
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
09-13-2010, 04:27 PM
#127
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
crank power should be the same when corrected.
09-13-2010, 05:27 PM
#128
Not necessarily. As I stated before, I don't have access to a boosted 2g TL. This project was started out of my own need to not roast a brand new motor and just wanted to share the outcome with the community.
The company that I've been talking to DOES have a narrowband controller but I just don't have the resources to test one in a vehicle. If I can find a local one, or if someone is willing to put up a couple hundred in R&D I can test my controller on that module and see if I can get it to work.
The company that I've been talking to DOES have a narrowband controller but I just don't have the resources to test one in a vehicle. If I can find a local one, or if someone is willing to put up a couple hundred in R&D I can test my controller on that module and see if I can get it to work.
09-13-2010, 07:27 PM
#129
Ok I'm back to 6 psi and running really strong, i left this guy from a roll and it was not a brand new ctsv. He made a stupid move by jumping on it in a high gear becuse he thought I wouldn't have any thing for him. The supercharger he had as a larger displacement version and he could make boost fast enough to even compete with what I'm running. He rolled don his window to say something but the uncorked rumble of the open exhaust made him think twice. The 100 octane I'm running and the fact I just left the hiway is making the car alot faster than my dyno #s reveal. I am siting on dr's at the moment just because I run with a modded v8 mustang crowd and I need to keep traction at a maximum while showing them the tail lights.
09-13-2010, 07:47 PM
#130
Team Owner
The torque convertor mostly. There's no chance of driver error forcing rpms down into an "unsafe for full boost" range.
On top of that, the engine is slightly less loaded on average than a MT which will help slightly when pushing the limits of the internals.
When the engine is loaded down at moderate rpms in a high gear in an MT, it's more prone to detonation. The convertor relieves some of this stress.
Very small differences, nothing to be worried about for the 6mt guys.
On top of that, the engine is slightly less loaded on average than a MT which will help slightly when pushing the limits of the internals.
When the engine is loaded down at moderate rpms in a high gear in an MT, it's more prone to detonation. The convertor relieves some of this stress.
Very small differences, nothing to be worried about for the 6mt guys.
09-13-2010, 07:51 PM
#131
Team Owner
Rodney is playing it extremely safe by saying 6psi is what he recommends. 8psi for me only made around 340whp. IIRC, one of the first dynos we did was around 6psi and we make about 300whp. The 6 speed is making much more power at the same level.
why? 10psi for me is likely to make around 370-380whp and 300ish wtq
As long as the car gets quicker everytime you turn up the boost you should be ok. Hp may not go up much on the dyno but it is going up.
The only thing to worry about is if you start running excessively high trans temps and power feels like it's falling off. You may be blowing through the convertor.
09-13-2010, 08:35 PM
#132
J36Twingt28r's,nextgt30r
That's interesting. I wonder what hp level the J32 experiences cylinder walk? The reason I ask about hp is boost is just boost, the power is what makes them walk. It's too bad they don't have a more traditional style deck. I wonder if they make one of those deck filler things for the J series.
I wonder at what point you start limiting rpms with the stock rods and boost. I understand rpm stresses the rods in a completely different way than boost (torque) does but at some point it may be best to start shifting a little sooner, say 6,500rpm. One motion stretches them, the other compresses them. Then again, boost reduces rod stretch at high rpms so I'm probably talking out of my ass.
I wonder at what point you start limiting rpms with the stock rods and boost. I understand rpm stresses the rods in a completely different way than boost (torque) does but at some point it may be best to start shifting a little sooner, say 6,500rpm. One motion stretches them, the other compresses them. Then again, boost reduces rod stretch at high rpms so I'm probably talking out of my ass.
lol
Last edited by tenzingsherpa; 09-13-2010 at 08:42 PM.
09-13-2010, 08:49 PM
#133
Team Owner
i am not sure about the hp numbers but im assuming @ 12 psi a 6mt tl would make about 450hp @ the crank, so i guess 450hp is when the cylinders would walk. Paul would know the specifics cause he has experience boosting the tl engine, i mean he made the first actually turbo kit for the tl engine before rodney did. he did some tests on it too. i know this christmas when i get boosted i will be running 4psi till i get darton sleeves. as far as rpm go i would love a higher redline lol
lolOil coolers and such are going to become a necessity as will more oil capacity as power levels rise. When is someone going to step up with a high volume pan for the TL? An extra 3 quarts will go a long way to keep the temp spikes down and the cooler will take care of the average temps.
What I'm really curious to see is how much power they will make with a knock detector. I have a feeling they will easily surpass what was previously thought possible due to the lack of knock.
09-13-2010, 08:50 PM
#134
Don't worry about dynojet readings on a turbo car. Turbos+autos give abnormally low readings sometimes. You're still making the same hp at the engine as the 6mt guys. I can name off at least one 9 second full weight turbo car that only makes 500whp on the dyno.
As long as the car gets quicker everytime you turn up the boost you should be ok. Hp may not go up much on the dyno but it is going up.
The only thing to worry about is if you start running excessively high trans temps and power feels like it's falling off. You may be blowing through the convertor.
As long as the car gets quicker everytime you turn up the boost you should be ok. Hp may not go up much on the dyno but it is going up.
The only thing to worry about is if you start running excessively high trans temps and power feels like it's falling off. You may be blowing through the convertor.
I have a trans temp gauge and im wondering were to put the sensor. Do you think putting a T fitting into the trans cooler hose and putting the sensor in the fitting is a good idea? If so, should the sensor be in the supply or return hose?
09-13-2010, 08:52 PM
#135
J36Twingt28r's,nextgt30r
if i remember correctly he(paul) had boosted a j35 stroker motor(having 3rd gen tl block) from and the engine failed at 20psi. the mdx oem forged rods were the culprit busting at 20psi. so it seems that the block can handle it, however the question is how long the block can handle the cylinder walk before things start breaking??
one thing is for sure for anyone running 12+psi is that forged rods are recommended most of all, since the weakest link in our cars are the toothpick oem cast rods.
one thing is for sure for anyone running 12+psi is that forged rods are recommended most of all, since the weakest link in our cars are the toothpick oem cast rods.
Last edited by tenzingsherpa; 09-13-2010 at 08:57 PM.
09-13-2010, 09:03 PM
#136
Team Owner
I know we are way off topic here so this is the last question. What is considered normal operating temps for the auto trans and what is considered high.
I have a trans temp gauge and im wondering were to put the sensor. Do you think putting a T fitting into the trans cooler hose and putting the sensor in the fitting is a good idea? If so, should the sensor be in the supply or return hose?
I have a trans temp gauge and im wondering were to put the sensor. Do you think putting a T fitting into the trans cooler hose and putting the sensor in the fitting is a good idea? If so, should the sensor be in the supply or return hose?
Where to put it is always debatable. The feed to the cooler usually comes right off of the convertor which is the hottest part of the trans. After the cooler may be cooler than the average temp. The "pan" would be a good average temp. I've seen people do it all 3 ways.
My personal preference is to get it at the pan as this will be a good average and it's where the fluid pickup is. You can usually get a kit that will screw into the drain plug hole.
If you do it at one of the cooler lines, I would do it before the cooler.
09-13-2010, 09:06 PM
#137
Team Owner
if i remember correctly he(paul) had boosted a j35 stroker motor(having 3rd gen tl block) from and the engine failed at 20psi. the mdx oem forged rods were the culprit busting at 20psi. so it seems that the block can handle it, however the question is how long the block can handle the cylinder walk before things start breaking??
one thing is for sure for anyone running 12+psi is that forged rods are recommended most of all, since the weakest link in our cars are the toothpick oem cast rods.
one thing is for sure for anyone running 12+psi is that forged rods are recommended most of all, since the weakest link in our cars are the toothpick oem cast rods.
If I remember right he wasn't monitoring knock. Maybe he can chime in to correct me if I'm wrong. Unless knock was being monitored, the hp level it blows at does not matter because knock could likely be the culprit. What I'm interested in is "clean" hp. No knock, just at what point the engine makes too much power.
09-14-2010, 12:14 AM
#138
Safety Car
Bert,
As a reminder, I really recommend that you get a logger that can save to a flashcard, such as the Auterra DashDyno (click here).
It is like always having your car on a dyno. I log my RPM, Throttle Position, and MPH. With these three parameters being constantly recorded, I can get my relative “whp” anytime and every time.
I record these three parameters every time I drive my car. Whenever I go wot, I will load the data into my computer when I get home. I will retrieve the RPM versus Time data during any wot periods. The data gives me extremely repeatable data that is as good (perhaps better in your case) as a dyno.
It is a real lifesaver when making mods. I will NEVER trust the butt-dyno ever again. NEVER. I have learned so much from having my logger. The brain is way too easily fooled into believing the wrong thing. But, the logging numbers don’t lie.
There were times when I felt the complete opposite from what the logger revealed. For example. I have been in races where I felt my car was not performing anywhere near as well as it should. My butt dyno could feel the car not performing well. However, the logger showed my car was pulling harder than it ever had in the past. Wow ! I will never trust the butt again.
Another example. I had always thought my car “sucked donkey balls” when I could not get a deep automatic downshift from the trans. I floor the pedal, the trans would not downshift deeply, and the car was forced to accelerated from lower RPMs. Felt crappy as hell. I had always hated this situation.
But, I was wrong. Data logging revealed that the car is pulling harder than if it got a deep downshift. Crazy. The brain hears the engine screaming at high rpm, and you think it is accelerating hard. You hear the engine lugging at low rpms and think that you are slow as a turtle. The data logger proves the opposite is the actually the case.
Get a data logger to record those three parameters (rpm, mph, throttle position). Without a logger, you are pissing into the wind. And as discussed, a real dyno is perhaps useless.
As a reminder, I really recommend that you get a logger that can save to a flashcard, such as the Auterra DashDyno (click here).
It is like always having your car on a dyno. I log my RPM, Throttle Position, and MPH. With these three parameters being constantly recorded, I can get my relative “whp” anytime and every time.
I record these three parameters every time I drive my car. Whenever I go wot, I will load the data into my computer when I get home. I will retrieve the RPM versus Time data during any wot periods. The data gives me extremely repeatable data that is as good (perhaps better in your case) as a dyno.
It is a real lifesaver when making mods. I will NEVER trust the butt-dyno ever again. NEVER. I have learned so much from having my logger. The brain is way too easily fooled into believing the wrong thing. But, the logging numbers don’t lie.
There were times when I felt the complete opposite from what the logger revealed. For example. I have been in races where I felt my car was not performing anywhere near as well as it should. My butt dyno could feel the car not performing well. However, the logger showed my car was pulling harder than it ever had in the past. Wow ! I will never trust the butt again.
Another example. I had always thought my car “sucked donkey balls” when I could not get a deep automatic downshift from the trans. I floor the pedal, the trans would not downshift deeply, and the car was forced to accelerated from lower RPMs. Felt crappy as hell. I had always hated this situation.
But, I was wrong. Data logging revealed that the car is pulling harder than if it got a deep downshift. Crazy. The brain hears the engine screaming at high rpm, and you think it is accelerating hard. You hear the engine lugging at low rpms and think that you are slow as a turtle. The data logger proves the opposite is the actually the case.
Get a data logger to record those three parameters (rpm, mph, throttle position). Without a logger, you are pissing into the wind. And as discussed, a real dyno is perhaps useless.
Last edited by Inaccurate; 09-14-2010 at 12:28 AM.
09-14-2010, 01:38 PM
#139
Burning Brakes
^^ this datalogger seems like the real deal.....always been hesistant on buying these but InAccurate let me ask you on 1-10 how accurate would you say those readings are?
If very accurate like you said this would def make going to a dyno pointless as for as seeing how much you making hp/tq wise
might have to add this to my xmas wish list
If very accurate like you said this would def make going to a dyno pointless as for as seeing how much you making hp/tq wise
might have to add this to my xmas wish list
09-14-2010, 03:24 PM
#140
A dyno still has plenty of uses. How many guys do you know that 100% street tune a 600+ hp vehicle? Don't forget that dyno runs are usually done in 3rd gear which puts you at speeds of around 120+ and at that speed, you're covering a little over half a football field every second. Dyno's will generally provide more consistent runs as well. How many perfectly flat roads do you know of where you can make 5 or more WOT runs at 120+ MPH without seeing other vehicles? Or have to worry about the cops being called?
But yes, if all you want is just HP/TQ numbers, it'll get you in the ballpark. Probably as close as any dyno since they vary greatly from unit to unit.
That being said, a good data logger is an invaluable resource when it comes to properly dyno tuning your car. I recently purchased a Honda Diagnostic System which is capable of delivering 2-3x more information than a regular OBD-II scanner. It allows me to see actual values for knock retard, what A/F the vehicle is attempting to target at any given RPM/load point and much, much more. It's a more cumbersome system, but still portable enough to connect to a laptop and take it with you to do some real-world data logging.
But yes, if all you want is just HP/TQ numbers, it'll get you in the ballpark. Probably as close as any dyno since they vary greatly from unit to unit.
That being said, a good data logger is an invaluable resource when it comes to properly dyno tuning your car. I recently purchased a Honda Diagnostic System which is capable of delivering 2-3x more information than a regular OBD-II scanner. It allows me to see actual values for knock retard, what A/F the vehicle is attempting to target at any given RPM/load point and much, much more. It's a more cumbersome system, but still portable enough to connect to a laptop and take it with you to do some real-world data logging.
09-15-2010, 11:08 PM
#141
Burning Brakes
^yea of course for tuning purposes and what not dyno most def serves its purpose, not disagreeing there, but just saying for generic readings like hp/tq numbers if very accurate it would be a great investment....
not pointless completely just didn't feel like writing much, but ur 100% righ Bmeyer as far as tuning and doing 3rd pulls 120+mph and uneven roads...Dyno still and will always be way to go
not pointless completely just didn't feel like writing much, but ur 100% righ Bmeyer as far as tuning and doing 3rd pulls 120+mph and uneven roads...Dyno still and will always be way to go
09-29-2010, 10:11 AM
#142
Sorry for the lack of updates lately, guys. I've been busy gathering documentation in preparation of possibly having to take my engine builder to court. To make a long story short, it's been 4 months, $7k, and dozens of blown deadlines and I don't have any proof that any of the parts even exist... and now he's making no effort to just cut ties and either refund my money or send me my parts. Nice, huh?
09-29-2010, 10:36 AM
#143
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
I hope you get your money back at least.
09-29-2010, 10:43 AM
#145
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Take the gloves off.
09-29-2010, 11:54 AM
#146
J36Twingt28r's,nextgt30r
Sorry for the lack of updates lately, guys. I've been busy gathering documentation in preparation of possibly having to take my engine builder to court. To make a long story short, it's been 4 months, $7k, and dozens of blown deadlines and I don't have any proof that any of the parts even exist... and now he's making no effort to just cut ties and either refund my money or send me my parts. Nice, huh?
09-29-2010, 02:30 PM
#149
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
09-29-2010, 03:14 PM
#151
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
werd.. but he's the only well known engine builder I've seen on here. Plus bmeyer attested to his rep.
09-29-2010, 05:23 PM
#154
J36Twingt28r's,nextgt30r
^^ if it is paul don't fret too much about it. i can tell u right now he has never screwed anyone on v6 performance or acurazine. he has been screwed by some members into making engine builds then they threaten to sue paul for stealing thier car(when he was working on it for the individual). he has alot going on right now as u well know. he has ur build and multiple m90 supercharged build that are being made and paid in full for. Also my twin turbo build he is peicing together that i paid 6k(in just parts) for is being sketched up too right now as we speak by paul so he has a full platter. One thing about paul is he works on each individual work based on when they pay and whether they pay for labor in advance or just parts. If u need to talk pm me and we can talk, but i ask please reconsider taking paul to court and give paul a chance.
Paul is a good guy he will bend backwards for anyone.
as for paul's communication, he is mostly buisness so he may seem too straightforward sometimes and not give u the answers ur looking for.
sry bud for whats going on, but he will set things right u got my word.
Paul is a good guy he will bend backwards for anyone.
as for paul's communication, he is mostly buisness so he may seem too straightforward sometimes and not give u the answers ur looking for.
sry bud for whats going on, but he will set things right u got my word.
Last edited by tenzingsherpa; 09-29-2010 at 05:27 PM.
09-29-2010, 07:02 PM
#155
I back what these guys are saying..Patience is going to be key here.. It def sucks having money invested and not having the end result right in front of u... I cant even IMAGINE how many p.ms,calls he receives daily on top of all of the local attention he must get also. Last time I needed something done I had to book atleast a month in advance. He really is that busy..I just shoot him a p.m every now and then to check on status, he will reply. Thats the good thing tho, he wont rush or bs the projects at hand just to speed things up.the man is all business.maybe not the best with communication, but most certainly the best when it comes to doing damn near anything for our cars.Im sure there will be no need to pursue any legal matters. Your progress has been amazing thus far.Keep it coming..
09-29-2010, 07:15 PM
#156
Yes, but the bullshit part is that I keep getting "I'll get to it this week" PM's EVERY WEEK for 4 months and nothing ever happens. For $7k, I had better get a god damn solid answer. Not this jerk-off response every time.
As an independant contractor myself, I understand what it's like to juggle multiple clients at a time, but on the flip-side, I know that if you jerk around your clients like this, you won't have any business coming through the door. And rightly so.
To be honest, because of this bullshit, I'll most likely end up selling the TL and getting into an M5 or 911.
As an independant contractor myself, I understand what it's like to juggle multiple clients at a time, but on the flip-side, I know that if you jerk around your clients like this, you won't have any business coming through the door. And rightly so.
To be honest, because of this bullshit, I'll most likely end up selling the TL and getting into an M5 or 911.
09-29-2010, 07:40 PM
#157
Ok guys here is my side....
We did start this project a good four months ago, unfortunatly the first set of rods from paulter were not correct, the wrist pin end of the rod was almost 100 too wide to fit into the pistons so they had to be sent back to Paulter for replacements. With my schedule being what it is this threw things all out of whack on my end to try to re-fit this build back in, along with other misc issues coming up that further complicated things. Another big piece to this is that in the past I have had issues with engines that I have shipped, to try to aleviate this I have been in the process of building a engine test stand so that these engines can be run outside of a vehicvle and tested before shipping as well as be able to test various mods, this has been a expensive and time consuming project, but one that is needed. Unfortunatly there has been much schedule creep and more than (understandably) brandon can deal with so he and I have come to an arrangement which is being fulfilled where I will be shipping him his parts and giving a full refund for all services even though he will be getting a set of ported head castings. I am sorry that things did not work out as expected and wish that I could have completed the project within his timeline.
I check PMs daily if not multiple times a day as I can, I just wish there were more hours in a day so that I could accomplish more work.
We did start this project a good four months ago, unfortunatly the first set of rods from paulter were not correct, the wrist pin end of the rod was almost 100 too wide to fit into the pistons so they had to be sent back to Paulter for replacements. With my schedule being what it is this threw things all out of whack on my end to try to re-fit this build back in, along with other misc issues coming up that further complicated things. Another big piece to this is that in the past I have had issues with engines that I have shipped, to try to aleviate this I have been in the process of building a engine test stand so that these engines can be run outside of a vehicvle and tested before shipping as well as be able to test various mods, this has been a expensive and time consuming project, but one that is needed. Unfortunatly there has been much schedule creep and more than (understandably) brandon can deal with so he and I have come to an arrangement which is being fulfilled where I will be shipping him his parts and giving a full refund for all services even though he will be getting a set of ported head castings. I am sorry that things did not work out as expected and wish that I could have completed the project within his timeline.
I check PMs daily if not multiple times a day as I can, I just wish there were more hours in a day so that I could accomplish more work.
09-29-2010, 07:40 PM
#158
Team Owner
Yes, but the bullshit part is that I keep getting "I'll get to it this week" PM's EVERY WEEK for 4 months and nothing ever happens. For $7k, I had better get a god damn solid answer. Not this jerk-off response every time.
As an independant contractor myself, I understand what it's like to juggle multiple clients at a time, but on the flip-side, I know that if you jerk around your clients like this, you won't have any business coming through the door. And rightly so.
To be honest, because of this bullshit, I'll most likely end up selling the TL and getting into an M5 or 911.
As an independant contractor myself, I understand what it's like to juggle multiple clients at a time, but on the flip-side, I know that if you jerk around your clients like this, you won't have any business coming through the door. And rightly so.
To be honest, because of this bullshit, I'll most likely end up selling the TL and getting into an M5 or 911.
09-29-2010, 08:06 PM
#159
Instructor
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09-29-2010, 08:06 PM
#160
^^^ That is correct, but it still does not explain the multiple blown deadlines. The "I'll get to it this week" is a completely unacceptable response when you're dealing with this kind of money. Repeated times I had asked for a concrete deadline and it was completely ignored. And the times it wasn't, I was given the same BS response.
When the engine stand was weeks, if not months away from being complete, I still got the same obscure response.
Again, let it be known that I never held Paulter's bad rods against you. It happens, I understand that.
I've been given a deadline of tomorrow for the tracking number and will update this thread on the results. If all is well, we can part ways happily, if not... well, we'll see.
IHC, I may end up taking you up on the offer provided I decide to keep the car. I'll keep you posted.
When the engine stand was weeks, if not months away from being complete, I still got the same obscure response.
Again, let it be known that I never held Paulter's bad rods against you. It happens, I understand that.
I've been given a deadline of tomorrow for the tracking number and will update this thread on the results. If all is well, we can part ways happily, if not... well, we'll see.
IHC, I may end up taking you up on the offer provided I decide to keep the car. I'll keep you posted.
Last edited by bmeyer; 09-29-2010 at 08:12 PM.