horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Unless I missed it, you never specified wheel bolt pattern; the discussion was regard knuckles, which has nothing to do with the wheel bolt pattern.

As for the rest of your post, it sounds mostly like anecdotal reports of what folks have said. Call me a cynic, but unless such reports are backed up by scientifically supported data, it is irrelevant.

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

Usually bolt pattern refers to the wheel.

And it's not just anecdotal... it's entirely true. What do you think is the main cause of brake fade? Heat. The rear brakes get virtually none being a solid rotor.

And if you have one single piston doing all the work that means the 1 piston is the one generating all the heat versus say 2 or 4 pistons.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

By definition, if someone says it without backing it up with verifiable facts, then it is anecdotal. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

I'm not going to argue there aren't bigger badder brakes out there, my argument is putting them on the rear of a TL is a worthless exercise.

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

So, to make things "fact" I will forever need to back EVERYTHING I say with evidence? Even the plain obvious things? Otherwise it's just anecdotal right, even though you'd probably believe and know it too---but I didn't state facts so it's anecdotal. Like, c'mon dude.

A quick google search would reveal what is the cause of brake fade.

here...
Brake fade is caused by a buildup of heat in the braking surfaces and the subsequent changes and reactions in the brake system components and can be experienced with both drum brakes and disc brakes. Loss of stopping power, or fade, can be caused by friction fade, mechanical fade, or fluid fade.

Brake fade - Wikipedia

Again, our rear rotors are SOLID and puny. It doesn't take a genius to realize that a bigger VENTED rotor would mean easier heat dissipation ergo less brake fade.

I'll throw another one at you.
Did you know drum brakes are technically superior to a caliper+rotor system? It has MUCH more braking surface. But there's a reason why race cars (and newer cars) don't have them. HEAT. Drum brakes generate TONS of heat---why? It's an enclosed system. By moving to a caliper+rotor system the braking system is now passively cooled by outside temps. Now throw in a vented rotor and it'll cool itself as it rotates when you drive. With a cooler rotor means cooler pads and caliper heat.

So, again, it's not "a worthless exercise" to put bigger brakes on a TL. As I mentioned---for daily use it's relatively pointless, yes. But for anyone who wants actual performance benefits then going with a BBK is beneficial.

edit: of course you need a BBK in moderation as too much of one thing can upset braking bias for better or worse.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Clearly you do not understand the meaning of the word anecdotal.

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

How so? Everything I talked about is based on facts and even provided you “proof” of the cause of brake fade.

even before I provided with the cause of brake fade everything I said wasn’t made up.

you wanted proof and claimed it’s just anecdotal because I couldn’t back up what I said with facts. I did. And now you’re saying I don’t know what anecdotal means. I think you’re confused, sir.

anecdotal: based on personal experienced rather than facts or research.

did I not provide all of that?

by your logic anything anyone ever says is anecdotal, even if true, because they do not immediately provide hard facts.



I get it. You don’t want a BBK and see no use for it. It doesn’t mean it’s not useless and doesn’t have a place. If you can’t grasp the basic understanding of heat transfer and thermal dynamics than alright that’s cool. Don’t wanna believe facts? Well alright that’s cool too. In the mean time those of us who are looking into improving our braking capabilities can continue to find ways to do that with or without a viable BBK option.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

This discussion is specific to 3G TLs, everything you've provided is anecdotal, yes, brake fade exists, yes thicker and vented rotors offer better cooling and increased thermal mass, yes, trick calipers help as well. But on the rear of a nose heavy FWD car like a TL, you haven't provided a single shred of documented proof of fade in the rear before the front. Hence, anecdotal.

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

sure, I’ll give you that one that one that there’s no “proof” of the rears fading before the front since it’s all OGs who tracked and eventually moved on from the TL. If they had pictures and thermal readings I’d provide that in a heart beat.

But you’ve done some mighty fine selective reading yourself. I’ve only given and listed the benefits as to why someone would want a rear BBK. Everything I wrote about a BBK front or rear is still facts.

even if theoretically the fronts faded first——AND you track the TL——why wouldn’t you want all 4 corners to remain consistent and cool to begin with?

like I mentioned if you don’t want or see the use of a rear BBK then that’s cool. Totally fine. And if you’re so hung up on getting hard evidence then why are you bringing down the thought of even creating a rear BBK? No rear BBK means no testing. meanwhile the rest of us can continue experimenting and finding out what works.

Acura TL Builder

He’s too old to try anything new, and cool faded from him five decades ago.

He still hangs on to the faded memories though.


Still like the guy though.

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

he seems a bit knowledgeable at least. A bit of a hard ass. 😂

I’ll just say it again though... if I didn’t already before: the main benefit for us to go to a BBK is the ability to use a proper VENTED rotor. We have really small SOLID rotors. Keeping the caliper and rotor the same size but moving to a vented set up would definitely help. For track days with repeated braking you would want to do everything you can to maintain consistent braking.

assuming you already modified everything else your weakest link is still the 10” SOLID rotor.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Okay smart ass, if you want a flame war, bring it; otherwise keep your personal insults to yourself.

gatrhumpy

iTrader: (1)

Insults another member and yet tells others to keep insults to themselves.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

What insult? You mean responding in kind? Yeah, childish, but apparently that's what @Saving4aTL understands.

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

I can't say for him personally but that's generally how most of us talk around here... we just give each other a hard time.

Anyway,

I'm still waiting for my brackets to be done. I'll be sending a copy to someone locally, to Aaron Sookra and Andy Gerzand. I don't know where you're located horse, but if you're willing to modify your existing brakes or know someone who's willing to try then I can send a copy out for your testing as well.

I don't know if I wrote it in my original thread but here's how I plan to test it on my own vehicle (no access to track near me yet):

Brake-distance test with current set up (front brembo rotors+pads, i forgot what was in my rear, stock lines and fluid)

then:
current pads+rotors but with SS lines and Motul 5.1

then:
EBC Stage 5 front rotor+pads, current rear, SS lines and Motul 5.1

then:
EBC Stage 5 front rotor+pads, EBC stage 5 rear BBK (2 piston caliper, 12" vented rotor), SS lines and Motul 5.1

edit: EBC Stage 5 includes: "GD Rotors" (Slotted and dimpled) with EBC Yellowstuff pads

I don't have and don't feel like getting new rear brakes to test in between. I'm hoping the 3 other people I have will help me test the new brakes I'm having made to their driving (and hopefully tracking). Would love to find someone who can extensively track their TL for testing since repeated brake-distance-tests won't be just enough.

edit again: I didn't do the math to compare the 2 braking forces of the rear, the new rear pads themselves are actually still somewhat small, but at a glance I'm going to suspect it's definitely going to bring up braking bias from 70/30 to probably 60/40. Doesn't look like it might be more.

Also I can't do the math right now since my fabricator has both my new calipers.

Acura TL Builder

If you send me parts, I’ll track test them on my 3G.

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

Sure! You’re in I will send you all the details on what you need when the time comes

Acura TL Builder

Oh, I thought you you would send me the parts to test, and I pay shipping and $250 + E85, tires and motor oil for the track day.

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

Hahah if you want I can send you everything you need once it's done. I have a set of blank rotors that I was using for testing and a set of rotors for my own.

You'd have to be willing to cut up your existing backing plate/dust shield though. Well... I guess I can ship you pre-cut knuckles too.

My initial plan was to: Send brackets (and maybe rotors, pads and calipers) to those who were going to help me test. They'd either send me the parts back or they pay to keep them. The price would be cost price (what I got them made for). Finding extra calipers is the harder part.

Acura TL Builder

I will pay cost and test them.

I could also use the stockies first to get a feel for the car, then switch them out between sessions to see whats the difference.

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

That's what I was planning on doing too but on the streets lol.

Would love actual track comparisons though.



ANYWAY. I made 2 new discoveries today... I might also upgrade my front brembos. Rather upgrade to a 1" larger rotor.

Still gotta trial and error my discoveries though. Will update my own BBK thread though.

Bense

Someone should try to compile a list of dimensions and put them in a table. Then work on acquiring these dimensions for various different brakes on different vehicle.

Then let's put then in a database that we can search through and select something that suits are needs.

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

That serves absolutely no use for the person creating the list. Way way way way way much more work than it's worth.
There's a reason why brake companies don't sort through by that kind of detailed information even if they're the ones who would gain the most from it.

Better to just go to your respective car forum and see what the people there find.

Le7316

Where are we on this guys ? Any update OP ?

Also regarding to the Genesis calipers , does it requires any spacers in between the rotors and the hubs to center it out ? Can we use the genesis mounting bolts or our Stock TL caliper mounting bolts ?

Bense

Have you ever heard of crowd sourcing? Anyway, this is no longer needed as someone else (Brett @ Fusion Works Fabrication in Alabama) was kind enough to share with me that the Brembo website allows you to search by dimension.

I was able to find several candidates that would be very suitable for what we're wanting to do.

See this link below. This was for my Rotora kit, however the same principal applies.
https://honda-tech.com/forums/suspen.../#post52359803
​​​
I also link a 339x23mm rotor. IMO, this is too thin. Another rotor I found was from a 2016ish Mustang

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

You can use rockauto and search random car rotors for dimensions.

Finding a rotor diameter and thickness is easy peasy. Your biggest issue is pad depth as well as hat height. I can list you several 340mm rotors but they either are non-lug-centric or have high hat heights or have low pad depth.

Making a budget BBK is a lot of work.. I been researching what I could and test fitting nearly non-stop just to see what works and what doesn't.

Bense

I previously did just that when I was working on this chart;
https://honda-tech.com/forums/suspen...chart-3346540/

If I were going to make a brake kit, I would have caliper brackets and hubcentric adapter rings (if needed) for whatever I sourced my rotor from. I would also provide a drill jig that bolts up to the rotor using it's preexisting lug pattern, that then has holes in 5x114.3 where one could use a simple hand drill + 1/2" drill bit to easily redrill the rotor.