libert69

iTrader: (7)

Im starting to consider a possible trans upgrade since I may be leaning towards making BIG power with the turbo in the future. I need to know what route and how I should go about doing this.

The stock tranny is holding fine right now and shows no signs of potential problems. If it wasnt for the tranny I would definitely have upgraded rods and pistons making atleast 450whp at this point. Who knows, the stock trans with a type-f fluid may hold over 400whp but Id rather not try to find out until I atleast had a spare fully built and ready to go first.

I dont want any down time from my car since its my DD. I was thinking about picking up a used trans (junkyard or even ebay) and having a shop rebuild it with some alto clutch packs and a higher stall converter.

I have an 04. Is the 04 in a class by itself? Meaning, can only 04 transmissions be used on a 04 TL? How about the type-s and RL transmission. Does the type-s use the RL trans? Can either be used on my 04?

What exactly are all the specific parts I would want to upgrade in order to hold a ballpark number of 500whp for example. Im not trying to build a track only car here. This would still be my DD.

Any and all info is appreciated

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

I dont think you can use the type-s or RL Trans.
but you can use 04-08 non type-s.

blkaspec

are you sure about that last part? they used a different trans in the 04-06 and the 07-08 base. my guess is only 04-06 trans would work?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

If i have time, I'll check out hondanews.com and find out for sure.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

correct... the 07-08 AT was based on the RL design...

handsom-hustla

iTrader: (3)

If I recall Richie was asking the same question not too long ago. I dont know from experience, but from what I have read and heard its not worth rebuilding or reworking the AT tans. Since you plan for more power why not Upgrade to MT?? You can start slowly. Buy a MT build it up then set a weekend or something for the install. Its def easier said than done, but i feel like its our best option. Being AT aslo, If and when it goes I will be converting over. either way good luck and let me know if there is something we can do to beed up the AT trans.

Richie v6

I couldn't sleep last night and read through the trans section in the service manual. There might be a way to increase line shifting pressure. I need to do more research.

I hate cars

There are 2 issues to address..... Clutch holding power and hard part breakage.

The Type F seems to have successfully addressed the holding power.

I don't think anyone knows at what level the trans will start breaking parts because I doubt anyone has ever pushed it at this level without the clutches slipping first.

Typically input shafts are the first thing to give in an auto but that's just a guess, it could be anything. Sunshells are another common failure point but who knows.

The good thing is you don't have the shock of a dry clutch so hopefully the 5at turns out to be stronger than the 6mt.

I hate to say this but honestly what I would do is continue doing what you're doing and see what happens with the additional power.

At some point either the clutches are going to slip or you're going to break something. The reason for not adding more holding power ahead of time is it's a balancing act between quicker shifts and parts breakage. If you add firmer shifts now, you could prematurely break something.

You'll fall in love with a higher stall convertor and the turbo. The convertor can also make part throttle shift much easier on the trans. You'll proabably want to swap in a larger cooler or add another in parallel.

Richie, are you thinking of electronically adding more line pressure? It sounds totally doable. If you're not able to electronically add more as in at 100% throttle whatever PWM valve is 100%, I bet you can mechanically swap out a relief spring or drill out the correct orifice and back down the PW below full throttle.

Inaccurate

I agree with IHC. Hot rodding is just that way. You never know what the next weak link in the chain is until it breaks.

Regarding the 6MT. I wouldn't jump on that ship so quickly. It is well documented by members (Accord members and Acura members) that the 6MT can't handle too much more than the 5AT. Plus, we do not yet really know what the 5AT can really handle yet. Up to this point in time, the 5AT has been handicapped by slipping clutches. Now that we have the clutches gripping much better with the Racing ATF, we need to see how much more power the 5AT can handle.

As a reminder, automatic transmissions dominates the drag racing community, not manuals.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I dont plan on upgrading to a MT.

What will increasing line pressure do?

Richie, IHC's has been mentioning increasing line pressure for the longest time but no one has really looked into doing it. Stuff like that is kind of out of my league but Im always willing to try suggestions from others on my car to see if it works. If you have any ideas then please share.

I believe I should be coming close to 400whp at this point. I have a 10psi tune (pushing closer to 10.8) and Im running meth. Last dyno with 8psi and no meth made about 340whp. No problems thus far. No slipping, No weird noises, No shuddering.

I did notice that my lower trans mounts are both broken so I ordered new ones and Im going to poly fill them. Say hello to even more vibrations lol

I will continue to push the limits of the trans. Eventually 10psi wont be enough and Ill need 13 and so on. At some point something is going to give. If its the trans then I would like to have something on standby waiting to be installed.

However, I see your point. I guess we need to find out the limits of the auto trans first. Then we can dissect it and find the weak links.

Inaccurate

Increased line pressure will push the clutch plates harder against one another. The harder the plates are pushes against one another, the harder it is to make the clutch to slip.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I should probably search before I post a question like that. It was answered in the turbo thread a few times lol

So Inaccurate, have you looked into raising line pressure as well? How do you think the added power from your nitrous build will affect the stock trans?

Richie v6

IHC can you please explain how the higher stall torque converter works? From what I read a TC is basically a hydraulic clutch that links the engine to the gears, when tranny fluid is pumped in. Does the higher stall change at what point the input and output lock?I found some videos of people cutting open the converter and rebuilding the internals. Do you think this would be possible with the TL?

Yes I was thinking of electronically modifying the clutch pressure solenoids. I need to looking more into it. I also need to find a way to measure the pressure after making changes in order to keep the data scientific. So with the higher line pressure I risk breaking hard parts?

Inaccurate

I have not looked into increasing the line pressure. I do recall this thread from a few years ago (click here).

My plans for my NMI (nitrous methanol injection) is to watch how your trans reacts to the turbo..........

My situation is a bit different in several regards. I will hopefully be able to resist the temptation of "more, more, more".

My motto is -

"Clip the wings that get you high,
just leave them where they lie
And tell yourself, 'you'll be the death of me' "
(Seether - Remedy)

I must remind myself constantly of nitrous' biggest disadvantage - it is easy to become greedy and thus fail.

I have searched the Acurazine forum (2G and 3G) and Honda forums looking for clues of how much power the 5AT can handle. From using experiences from other J32 owners (boosted owners with superchargers or nitrous), I should be safe with approx 75-HP boost. But it is not really the horsepower that will break parts. It is the peak torque that break parts. I have calculated that approx 315-350 ft. lbs. of torque would be a sane limit.

I am trusting the Racing ATF to make the trans live a long, happy life with this 350 ft. lbs. sane limit.

Plus, the nitrous will be using a Throttle Position Switch that reads the actual closing of the throttle butterfly between shifts. Thus, the nitrous will be turned off while the trans is shifting. This will allow the clutch pack to couple (lock up) without being under the strain of the boosted torque.

The other reason that my situation is different from yours is because of the TL Diet. That 350 ft. lbs. sane limit will be the equivalent to 465 ft lbs on a normal TL. And that my friend is enough for me.

"Clip the wings that get you high,
just leave them where they lie
And tell yourself, 'you'll be the death of me' "
(Seether - Remedy)

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I remember that thread and I look at it every so often. Earlier, I checked the profile of the OP from that post and he has not been on AZINE since july. He has his email address listed so I just emailed him earlier with hopes of getting some updates on how his trans is doing

I trust your calculations since they have been spot on in the past. If upgrading the trans is really such a big issue, and my quest for more power/speed becomes even more addicting, I may just start having to shed weight since that will be the easiest and most affordable option

Im sure you have seen these scans in the manual but maybe IHC and others havent. Going by these scans, is there any valuable info that can be used for increasing line pressure?

Notice the last line..."line pressure reaches its maximum when the stator torque reaction reaches its maximum"

What does that mean? Is there a preset "maximum" that is already programmed into the ecm? Is there a possibility that the maximum is an unknown number and possibly a number that can handle a huge power increase like we have seen from my car without a failure?

I know IHC had some specs on the ATF pump and its ability to flow almost 3x as much psi then it actually uses on a stock TL.

Im just babbling at this point with all these thoughts

I guess what Im saying is.... is it possible that an increase in line pressure is already being achieved with the stock internals when we are making much more power then stock?

Inaccurate

Those numbers are very subjective. I am not saying that the trans will (or will not) fail with higher torque than I stated. But, these numbers are well documented to work ok.

I did not run across anyone saying that they broke their trans when they applied 350+ torque to it.

The trans could possibily handle a lot more. Or not No one has tried up to this point in time.

Regarding the Service Manual. I feel the same way. That Service Manual is a gold mine of information. I often wonder what IHC could do with all of that information. The Service Manual goes into great detail explaining how the trans functions.

As a side note of little importance - I recall reading in the manual that the line pressure is higher when the trans is placed in "L".


Highly unlikely. The ecu has no way of knowing how much power is being put thru the wheels.


As the car makes make power, the more the diet helps. It is a straight multipler. Making the car 30% lighter is the same as making 30% more power.

This is why I could not resist adding nitrous. A little 75 or 100 hp boost would be mutipled by 33%.... the equivalent to 100 or 133 hp boost.

Zigma

I am puzzled as to why the recommendation for a manual transmission swap is not recommended as opposed to sticking to the 5AT. While many of us can agree that a 5 speed transmission is much better for a boosted car as opposed to a 6 speed, I cannot see the path of upgrading an AT tranny over a M/T swap. Honestly, besides user preference, I would go with a M/T swap as that transmission can easily be reinforced with a better clutch. While automatic will always shift better and faster than a M/T, power shifting and good skill will go a long, long way.

I was looking online and noticed that a number of clutches are available for the M/T TL. SPEC makes a stage 3 and 4 clutch, so does clutch masters, and so forth which are rated for massive torque. Not only that, but launching will also be much better from what I have been reading so far in your posts. I also believe a swap would be a cheaper alternative as keeping it automatic and upgrading it. While I agree that many automatics dominate drag racing, hell, racing in general as Formula one has moved away from MT right? But those transmissions are usually dual clutch with no torque converter.

I hate cars

The torque convertor is the key to getting the turbo TL off the line. It's much better than a manual assuming you can actually powerbrake the car. Not lifting on shifts and having to rebuild boost is another big plus though this particular one does lift slightly. Autos are generally stronger.

Don't forget, with the Type-F fluid, this auto is doing very well and it has well over 100,000 miles on it. It's premature to say the auto needs to be upgraded since it has never broken. Honesly, if you want to look at the numbers, you have 0 FI auto failures and a few manual failures. I know there is only one 5at FI Tl so that's not entirely fair to say.

This TL is really going to come alive once the powerbraking issues are sorted out. Powerbraking not only allows a turbo car to get off the line harder, it's much easier to control the torque spike as boost hits. You stall it up to whatever psi you choose and then hold the throttle right there through most of first eliminating the uncontrollable wheel spin when boost hits.

I hate cars

Most of the time you're changing the angle of the stator blades or the stator all together. If you get a 3,000 stall convertor, it will take about 2,500rpm just to get the car moving from a redlight. When you hit the gas, rpms will shoot up into a higher rpm range from the start, getting you in the powerband much quicker. If you floor it from a start, rpms will hit 3,000rpm at a dead stop. What you will notice is V8-like torque from a dead stop. The car will literally feel like it lost 1,000lbs. Part throttle shifts will feel even softer than stock and this is the only situation where that's not a bad thing. The car will be more responsive in just about any situation.

When driving a high stall auto, you will learn to modify your driving habits a little. They don't like to be cruised up to speed real slow. It will feel a little lazy if you give it just a little throttle but will quickly come to life with enough throttle. 3,000rpm is as far as I would go for the street. I've daily driven my car with a 4,500rpm convertor back when turbo technology was not as good and it's no fun. 2,800 to 3,000 will offer a world of improvements in performance with almost no hit to drivability.

Zigma

Thanks for the clarification.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

IHC, do you have a copy of the service manual? If not, I have a pdf version that you can use the search feature. If you want it then PM your email and ill send you a link where you can download it

I got a reply back from the member here who made the thread a while ago about adjusting the solenoids. I basically asked him how the car was doing nowadays and a few other questions regarding reliability and his only response was "No problems at all."

I guess you could take that response either way. If I did a mod to my car that others told me not too and something broke then I might runaway also lol

Richie v6

I am sold, depending on price. Do you know of reliable places to have them modified? I did some searching and it looks like Level Ten uses this place.

http://www.protorque.com/

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Just and FYI, service manual states a oem 2000rpm stall speed. Ive noticed I can reach 2150 when I data log

04accordcpe

iTrader: (3)

hey libert, have you given dr evil transmissions a call? maybe they can do something for you. i know a few of the 6th gen accord auto guys have had some transmissions built there before.. not sure how much they charge,. but worth a shot

Inaccurate

Here is the Acurazine Search Results for "Dr Evil"

Installed new custom torque converter rebuilt by Dr.Evil, car is NOT moving (click here)
Dr. Evil Transmission failed, please sticky (From 3G TL section) (click here)
Dr. Evil Transmission failed, please sticky (From 2G TL section) (click here)
Dr. Evil Transmission failed, please sticky (From 2G CL section) (click here)
Dr. Evil Transmission failed, please sticky (From 1G CL section) (click here)
Heavy Duty Torque Converter from Dr.Evil (click here)
Just located a Used tranny, should I go ahead with Dr.Evil? (click here)
Dr. Evil Trans Upgrade For 5AT? (click here)
5AT w/ Dr.Evil VS. 6MT (click here)
My Dr Evil transmission story (VERY long w/ cliffs) (click here)
Dr.Evil TL Tranny..advice needed (click here)
Dr. Evil Experience (click here)
DR Evil Trans (click here)
Rebuilt transmission or Dr. Evil???.. (click here)
Dr. Evil 5-speed auto transmission (click here)
Dr.Evil torque converter??? (click here)
Dr. Evil transmission groupbuy (click here)
Dr. Evil tranny (click here)
Dr. Evil Tranny (click here)

lithiumgsx

On my Blackberry, so I don't have easy access to URLs, but contact IPT (Import Performance Transmission) or Level 10 for all your automatic tranmission needs.

phee

iTrader: (5)

i would stay the fuck away from doctor evil. they shenanigans they pulled with the 2g owners are unforgiveable. (painting oem trans and claiming they were built, going back on warranty claims, falsifying power achieved etc etc.) the list goes on and on

I hate cars

LOL. You're just a hater...

Seriously though I cringed when I heard that name mentioned. I remember some of the stuff he pulled a while back.

There are many places that will restall your stock convertor for around $100. I would recommend aftermarket if you can get one made for the TL. Efficiency would go up and it would produce less heat for the same stall speed but a modified stocker will work.

I almost feel like hitting my trans builder up about doing some bench jobs. He's good with the Honda 5at and has been building racing transmissions since the '60s.

Those who have the money to invest, you can always put your trans on a trans dyno and find out the failure point. I know Art Carr used to have one but not sure anymore with the ownership changes.

Inaccurate

What? No good comments regarding Dr Evil in those links.......

I suppose Dr Evil is earning a name for themselves... as appropriate as it is.

Richie v6

So I called around, no one knew anything about aftermarket converters.

http://www.torqueconverter1.com/
$100 to modify your stock converter. He was only comfortable adding 300-400RPM

http://www.protorque.com referred me to http://www.importperformancetrans.com/
$479 they had no problem changing your converter stall to 3000RPM.

http://www.ptcrace.com
$150 to modify as much as possible, doubts you will get more then 300RPM from a stock converter.

Would 300-400RPM make a noticeable difference?

Inaccurate

Just sharing my experiences with my heavily modded IROC-Z Camaro (solid cam, intake, carb, auto trans w/ manual valve body, 3.73 gears)....

I would not waste the time nor money for anything less than 3000 RPM Stall. I had a 10-inch 3500 RPM B&M converter in my Iroc. It was somewhat daily driven. I loved that 3500 stall.

For balls-out performance and still be daily driver, I would get a 3500. Gas mileage would suck (pun intended), but the performance would be worth it to me.

For others less radical than me, I would only feel comfortable to recommend a 3000 RPM stall in the TL. The 3000 stall would still compromise gas mileage, but performance usually means a compromise somewhere.

If you wanted to be conservative, compromise less gas mileage, and have less performance, get the 2500 RPM.

But, *I* personally wouldn't waste my time on anything less than 3000.

lithiumgsx

As I stated above, you really can't go wrong with IPT. They haven been building stout parts for some of the quickest AWD auto DSM tranmissions for well over a decade and I haven't heard of a complaint / horror story yet - nothing but praise.

I hate cars

For $100 I would definately go for the 300 extra rpms. It will make a small difference but probably drive normal.

The reason I say this is because torque is usually rising rapidly at these low rpms. 300-400rpm rise could be 10-50lbs of torque difference. I searched for a stock TL dyno starting at 2,000rpm but I had no luck finding it.

The other thing is the car will be quicker off the line no doubt about it. How much quicker is questionable but people spend way more money on things like gaskets and spacers which do pretty much nothing. $100 is well worth it especially with the trans out already.

A 3,000rpm stall is a better starting point for sure and I would highly recommend this if possible. Only problem is bigger cams and ported heads are the next logical step lol.

Inaccurate

Here is a graph from Comptech. you are correct about the power rapidly rising at those low RPM's.


NOTE - THE GRAPH AND NUMBERS ARE TORQUE OUTPUT, NOT HP.

I hate cars

Damn red "X"s. I'll have to wait an hour till I get home.

I hate cars

That's actually more than I thought. It looks like you could have about 50lbs more torque available right when you hit the throttle.

04accordcpe

iTrader: (3)

had no idea... i just remember an old school member on v 6 p (serge) was the first and only to date to run a 12 sec 1/4 in their AV6.. he was running a dr evil transmission with great success.. although that was 3-4 years ago =/

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I read all the Dr.Evil threads a long while ago and I remember some horror stories. A fully built tranny seems like its going to cost a lot of money. I guess for now ill keep pushing the limits of the stock tranny and see what happens.

If I start to make over 400whp it would be wise to upgrade the rods/pistons anyway. Although if for any reason I need to pull the trans or even the subframe at this point, I would be going with a 3000rpm converter for starters.

Richie v6

I emailed a supplier of transmission rebuild components and it looks like Alto is the way to go. To bad they are out of stock with no release date. I am grabbing a set when they are in stock.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Nice to see someone really going through with an upgrade.

Please keep us informed of your progress. I know a few others including myself will definitely follow your footsteps if all goes well.