nfnsquared

Can anyone post the exact text of the 3 year warranty?

I agree, replacing the flex with vendor paid shipping both ways would be acceptable (warranty may or may not specify shipping cost procedures)...

Won't offer an opinion on Heeltoe's official offer without knowing the warranty...

I'd have to agree that it's a defective flex unit and it's not due to excessive use/exposure. Only one year and limited use in snow/salt with weekly underbody washes...

Abe_Froman

iTrader: (5)

This is why I didn't post till Marcus put his side of the story up. Marcus has always been good to me. I've talked to him on the phone a couple of times and he was extremely helpful each time.

Six years of doing business on these forums and this is the first time I have heard a compliant about them.

OP Marcus said he will fix the flex and pay shipping both ways. So I'm not sure I see what the problem is.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

"Heeltoe: Ryan, we have discussed this with the manufacturer of the parts and have realized the following things.

1- You live in a place where the weather takes a beating on metal parts like these.
2- These parts get hot, which, even in stainless steel, can propagate corrosion. I am not sure if you are running pre-cat deletes or are an aggressive driver, but if you are that will make things even more prone to corrosion (due to added heat).
3- The thin fibers of the mesh material are, combined with 1- and 2- above, the most susceptible parts of the exhaust to this wear. Because of the the heat, corrosion, and flexing they are vulnerable to breaking up like this.

Honestly, we don't see this sort of thing come back to us. We don't feel that this is typical wear, and therefore feel to a degree this part must have been subject to atypical use. This is in no way trying to implicate you at all, so don't go there with it. It could simply be the chemical makeup of the local dirt or road salt that accelerates things. One way or another, this is damage due to an environmental impact and is not technically a product defect that would be covered under warranty.

We don't routinely tell people "It's your problem not ours," so at this time, I would like to find out more specifically what level of compensation you are looking for. We may be able to accommodate you, but it must be reasonable."


Sorry, but with this being your initial response after you viewed the photos I still don't blame op for being upset.

Your first defense is the weather thing. Seriously? I don't recall reading a disclaimer when I bought my j-pipe that my geographical location may void the warranty. All I remember reading about was the awesome "anti-corrosive" benefits of the stainless being used. If someone in the northeast brought their one year old TL to the dealership with the flex falling off the OEM j pipe would this be the standard reply?

Then you tell him: "so don't go there with it". Really poor choice of words that comes across rather confrontational. Good customer service entails never forecasting their next thought or action and verbally squashing it and certainly never directly ordering them to do/not do something.

And then in the end, you're fishing for what he wants instead of offering him your best deal? I mean I don't think a brand new pipe is warranted either, but an offer to weld in a new piece of flex and pay shipping both ways would have been pretty reasonable.

stvtec

iTrader: (2)

Eh, on the other hand he REPEATEDLY said "we will make this right" "we will come to a mutual solution" etc etc. OP continued to get mad with "the resolution" when there had not yet even BEEN a resolution. At no point did it seem they were at an impasse, IMO.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

I think everything in life is a learning opportunity.

I apologize for the assumption that you had seen this thread and didn't respond by choice.

I know from my own interaction with you that you are certainly busy...I also pointed out that you have always been extremely knowledgeable and helpful in past dealings.

I am not sure who the responsibility lands on as far as looking for and making suggestions for a solution for a "one off" problem like this. I think if you offered to pay shipping back/forth and replace the flex I'd feel like you'd taken car of the problem and that would be reasonable.
Like mentioned, you haven't had anyone else complain about this. That said, I don't like the reasoning behind the part not standing up to the "elements" being because it's built for performance and not to last. All that is a moot point once you offered to fix it for free. A new pipe wouldn't be necessary IMO because it still does what it's supposed to.

I guess a disclaimer for people that HAVE to drive thru salt in the future? I don't know, I think you actually both had reasonable, intelligent exchanges in the email. I'm sure this will end just fine.

myron

iTrader: (4)

+1, I don't like how this is advertised like it's fucking indestructible "American made stainless steel" and then salt/heat destroy it like that. Maybe there should be something in the small letters (DON'T USE WHERE THERE IS SNOW/SALT ON THE ROADS) or something.

but it doesn't seem like heeltoe offered to replace the flex pipe either. He only just mentioned it in his reply to the thread, no where in the email responses he posted. He just posted that he offered him a new one for 247$.

All I know if it had happened to me I'd be pissed too but if I was offered a fix for it (new flex pipe and shipping paid for), I wouldn't be making a thread about it.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Warranty:
We don't have a warranty typed all up in legalize, since we never have had a history of customer service resolutions on a person-by-person basis. Warranties specifically are there to replace items that are defective, or that have issues that are within the preventable control of the manufacturer. This is relatively common knowledge, we believed until now.

We know that under normal use this sort of corrosion does not occur. The flexes we use are supposed to be 304 stainless. What the customer can do is prove that the item is or is not ferrous steel by sticking a magnet to it. If it is not stainless, a magnet will stick, and obviously the part would not have been made correctly and we'd have to replace the part under warranty NO QUESTION. If it is stainless, the best explanation to the corrosion is 2-fold:
i: heat from the specific use of the part causes any carbon in the material to come to the surface which can cause a higher degree of corrosion in the base metal. The part would have to become red-hot for this to happen.
ii: iron ore in road dirt (variable based on geography) reacts with salt put on the roads in the winter and cakes onto the metal parts under the car. The corrosion happens fast, and is catalyzed by high heat from the exhaust. Anyone who wants to call BS on the salt thing, read this: http://www.ssina.com/download_a_file/corrosionfinal.pdf 304 grade is highly corrosion resistant but nothing is invincible. Salted areas are corrosive environments for the entire year, not just during the winter, so much so that just the air is more corrosive.
iii: Neither i or ii are within the control of the manufacturer. This is up to the customer to assume the risk of installing such a part under these conditions. We definitely don't want to have a problematic part here, but perfection is pretty damn hard to attain at this price point. However the customer claims to have used or treated the part cannot be proven . All we can do is go based what we can make of the situation as is. Some of the critics might be best served to think of it as if you hand sold a part and had someone come back like this and how far you'd be willing to go for them!



Re: "my initial response" / anx1300c
I don't blame the guy for being upset either, but at the same time that does not make the situation my fault any more than the increased horsepower might cause him to get a speeding ticket. The issue with the part is what it is and we want to resolve it. But attacking our character and integrity is absolutely and completely uncalled for.
"don't go there with it" you must not have read all the words that came before and after that statement. "trying to get him to say what he wants" OF COURSE I WAS. How many times do you think I make offers for service and they are not good enough for the person and they get even more pissed? I KNOW customer service better than just about anyone. Rather than waste time and try and figure out and guess what sort of "compensation" the person want, it is 1000x better just to simple ask them. Did he want a discount on a future order? Fix the part locally and be compensated? Get a new part? How do I know without him telling me?

You can poke holes at my comments all you want, but in the end all I was doing was trying to help and it wasn't good enough. And now I know why...because people here were fueling his agitation, waiting for him to get my comments so he could post them here and propagate the shit-talking. And then, he just stopped email and waited for me to post here without even letting me know he started the thread! It kinda reminds me of this thread: https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/mrheeltoe-failed-website-ordering-736441/ only with a completely different outcome. At least I found out from someone that some ish as going down.



After reading here: http://www.ssina.com/download_a_file/corrosionfinal.pdf maybe we need to look at 316 grade stainless instead. We have already called a few vendors to see if there is a way to get another flex that is reliable and more corrosion resistant. Make sure you realize that the variance in material can cause the flex to break easier if it becomes more brittle, and could drastically impact cost. We won't know without more research, which we are doing now (don't forget these parts were all designed and spec'd before I took over).


Re: replacing the flex. That is the least expensive and more attractive option for us. However when the customer said they wanted a new part, we knew simply replacing the flex was not going to be adequate and offering to replace the flex at that point would have been an insult. Offering the replacement part for a huge loss to us was supposed to be a more attractive offer than replacing the flex itself. If you don't think this was a good offer, I guess that is your choice. This guy wanted something for free, maybe replacing the flex would have been better for them, but they didn't say that. The stopped talking to me.

Re: disclaimer on using this product in salty areas....really??...you guys need that?

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Thank you.

BTW, our interaction was based on a set of circumstances that were outside normal operations for us. We wanted to explore doing a new part and that takes a while. You unknowingly buried us in PMs and we could not reply fast enough so we simply locked up. Hence, my new signature.

Anyway, it was another case of not having enough capacity to handle new projects when current customer and order servicing was more important. So sorry for that, hope you understand.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Yeah man, we're good.
I totally understand. Communication solves everything...
That said, if I ever see a thread like this come up, I vow to PM the vendor (or email) so at least they are aware of the thread and can come in early and retort.

J.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

So where is everyone now? I'd like to hear a little more from the OP and some of the other wiseguys who didn't hesitate to comment since this is such an important issue to call us "bogus" and that we have "bs customer service" and all the other slander that was spat without having the benefit of hearing the whole conversation?

Where are all these people now?


These comments hurt the worst. This is just...unconscionable. We have NEVER given ANYONE reason enough to react this way. We honor our parts and our service, which is why when something is messed up we really look at it critically. What kind of vendor would I be if I said "yeah, I sold you a piece of shit, here's a new one for free." We don't say that because we don't sell you shit! Which is every reason to consider Heeltoe and ATLP for future orders.

Because I am that kind of a-hole, right? Man, if you dealt with us and had a problem, what was it? You never let us know. If you didn't have a problem, why would you chastise us based on the statements that I made passed through someone you don't even know? Now that you read what we said, do you feel the same way?

I think you are way WAY overreacting man. We could have continued discussing this but you chose to post and post and post here instead.

Yes, because I watch every thread right? I spend MOST of my time helping people that placed orders and who contact us. As much as I'd love to post here more often and nip stuff like this fast, I can't. Not enough time in a day to keep up with you all. I rely on my faithful others to kinda back me up a little. The only reason I am on that other thread at all is because the OP over there asked me to chime in, and now I am subscribed to it so I reply more. Obviously without being privy to this thread I was not going to be subscribed and therefore didn't even know it was going on.

OH WAIT, I DID offer to split a new one, and it wasn't good enough. FUNNY! I didn't NEED to post here to do that! I did it on my own! Rather than accept it or continue discussing the OP decided to rant all over here...and you guys ate it right up.


See what happens when you react and you don't know the whole story? Yeah, the OP made it sound pretty bad, but I really wasn't going there with this.

Based on my comments and posts I'd think you could understand a little more clearly now what I actually said. And if you were able to get one of these replaced under warranty that is important information. Mike, previous owner of ATLP, said he had not had people with corrosion problems on these parts. I need to know if that is true or not! Do you have images from when that happened? Please email marcus@heeltoeauto.com.


Yeah, let's go ahead and falsely assume that. You've seen me in the forums forever. You really thing I would pull a move like that????

Nice, douche bags...really nice. Let's react inappropriately to someone else's assumption, please!

Jokers? HA! You have not run out of options with us though...believe it or not, even though this thing is such a mess I am not above continuing to solve your problem. If you don't want to work with me any more, even though I have treated you with respect and offered to continue working for you, I don't see how you could justify calling us jokers or anything else.

I already explained that our bogus warranty is not a blanket "no matter what happens, even if the product was made properly, we'll replace it policy". You would have a decidedly better case with us if we could get the part back and inspect it. From the pics I saw and what I know about science and our product, this should not be covered under warranty but we are willing to offer goodwill support. If you think Josh would act any different, you probably have another thing coming.

....sorry my 6th sense really wasn't working. I am really floored how long you guys thought to wait before chasing me down. My last email with the customer was on 2/19, and then you all guys started a crap slinging contest in here. He never hit me back and continued working with us on this.

Really? Yours is all rusty too? Maybe we do have a problem... please crawl under the car and take some pics. By all means, if there is a cancer problem with ATLP parts, please more than 1-2 people have to let me know.

But, um, don't say this just because of this thread.

Yeah...let's make have a laugh at your expense next time. And we will make it hit you in your pocket as well. I know you apologized but man looking back on things this is really a JACKED UP THREAD to be made about 2 of the biggest contributors to this community over the last 6+ years. ATLP+Heeltoe are Acurazine institutions. And you guys all just pooped on the lawn.

You were lucky? Or maybe you are the better representative of the product. Besides this guy has a full ATLP system and he doesn't have problems with it, he even said so. You are basing this off ONE person's experience with a completely different part? Come on.


Let's not forget about the other couple hundred ATLP j-pipes rolling around out there. I think about 300 have been sold...we gotta have more than 1-2 people with issues, right?




Really guys, is this the kind of community we are now? It used to be so awesome here. And now you won't even give someone reputable the benefit of the doubt and take it all on one guy's word of how a whole conversation went?

jpgayan

Driving aggressively with the performance parts you purchased is "atypical" use? If that's their attitude why don't they just offer a chrome plating service for the stock J-pipe? Apparently ATLP products are for show only.

aznbo187

iTrader: (1)

What started as a simple topic seemed to devolve into a petty backyard brawl, so it seems.

This thread was started to discuss a potential fault in the flex section of the J-Pipe, but has rather turned into a bash contest. In regards to the original topic, we have had less than a handful of flex problems, which have all been taken care of as soon as the issue came up (i.e. Lazer187). Client sends their part in, we fix the issue, and send it back. No one likes issues or waiting when it comes to your parts, but it does happen every once in a while. ATLP, RV6, XLR8, HT, Greddy, you name it.

Marcus could have been more explicit letting the client know that he also has the option to send the part in, fixing the flex, and receiving it back within a few working days. And sure, the choice of words should have also been more wisely chosen. But having been on both sides of the industry, I realize sometimes a client may want a brand new replacement instead of fixing the issue. I can only assume that offering a repair may have come across to insulting, thus Marcus may have refrained. If that was the case, sure I think Marcus should have mentioned that option. On the other hand, the lack of response from the client thereafter and simply posting about it, expecting a vendor to find it isn't really going to solve the problem when the issue could have been resolved by a simple phone call.

Unfortunately, the simple issue of a mis-communication on a warranty item isn't what prompted me to post, but rather the eager role quickly taken by the community to simply bash.

Why is that relevant? Not only is it relevant but it's pretty discouraging because we are all one big community of enthusiast. When issues arise, our vendors step up and are here to answer questions, give advice, seek advice, and develop new products. Not bashing any big brands, but what support have we received from them? It's because of our own vendors that we have great, individual performance parts for our cars. Besides the same old plain-jane systems, who else than our own vendors on this forum helped listen to what we wanted?

These are the same vendors that are still here today, making sure they can help you with any questions. They have been here for the last 5-10 years doing just that, so what makes you guys think they would turn their backs now? Sure, they may not be able to respond nor find a thread the same day, but keep in mind besides running a business, they also need to be active on multiple other sub-forums and boards.

It's so sad, to see people just jump on a bash fest, especially those who have been around long enough. This is the single biggest problem on this forum.

It seems there are those that seem to ride the bash-tide looking for the next wave, whether it's someone's outside the box modifications, CSL trunks, and recently, your local vendor.

This isn't right, especially for a community that shares the same enthusiasm and passion.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

I'm shocked at the unprofessional response from HeelToe. Absolutely amazed actually.

I understand you conduct your business largely on this forum and likely on others as well so things are often quite casual. But when a business is confronted with a difficult customer complaint; to see your reaction will ensure I'll never do business with you.

First, you come out saying how PISSED you are at a customer and the rest of your existing customers and potential new customers who contributed to the thread. Saying your customers let you down. Let you down? Because they responded to someone who has a legit defect in the product you sold him? How did they let you down? Are all customers supposed to support you regardless of your actions or inactions? Let you down? That's silly.

Loyalty? I suspect you're going to lose even more of that loyalty telling your customers what they've said is bullshit. Bitching about ad fees. I don't doubt you've dropped thousands of ads over the years; but that's a business decision you made. No one forced you to do so. And if that multi-thousand dollar investment hasn't resulted in a large return in sales volume and profits you're a worse businessman than the one you came across as in this thread.

Your excuses for the product failure are laughable. If the product is expected to fail due to heat (it's an exhaust part...it gets hot) and salty roads you shouldn't sell your parts to customers where it snows without a disclaimer. I've never heard of such a pathetic excuse before and I've purchased many aftermarket products.

You should have simply said the product is out of warranty and stand by your offer for a discounted replacement. Leave it at that. If the customer isn't happy, respond to your critics here with the facts of your conversation but without the cry baby commentary.

The Heeltoe Automotive company comes across as a shop run by amateurs who take every business transaction or poor review that comes their way personally.

I'm picturing you standing there beating your chest egging people on for a fight. Grow up man. And while you're at it, get a real warranty policy. This is crap:

Amateur hour.

P1zzaman

iTrader: (1)

"Yeah, let's go ahead and falsely assume that. You've seen me in the forums forever. You really thing I would pull a move like that????"

I was only reacting to the comments from the OP and linking what I remembered seeing from the ATLP website about the 3 year warranty. I never said you were wrong, I was just surprised. Obviously this affects all of us who have this J-pipe. You could have easily responded to me by saying, "3 years warranty for defect, and this is not a defect" Even though your words of "too old" after 1 year confused me.

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

So you claim it's not your fault. You claim it isn't the manufacturer's fault since the warranty claim was denied because it wasn't "within the preventable control of the manufacturer." Then who's fault is it? The customer's? The install doesn't appear to be conducted poorly. There are no visible scrapes on the plumbing forward or aft of the flex joint. What could the customer have done to prevent the damage to the product he purchased? Not driven on roads treated with salt or other semi-corrosive materials? That's a joke.

Lazer187

iTrader: (1)

Heeltoe refer to page 1 of this thread as i posted my 2 pictures of what happened to my jpipe, which differs from the OP problem, even tho we both drive on salted roads.

nfnsquared

Not to divert from the ugliness of this thread, but I wonder if that particular flex unit was suffering from excessive chrome carbide precipitation (making the areas around the welds iron rich and thus susceptible to rust) due to a less than ideal welding technique (too much heat applied for too long)?

http://www.finishing.com/160/07.shtml, second paragraph...

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

Regarding your last sentence, I can only assume you feel any product failure that may be even remotely construed to be related to corrosion in an area that's subject to inclement weather should be warranty exempt. I just don't understand that; especially on a part that's degrading after one year. If that is in fact your posture, then what's the point of using stainless steel in the first place, with all its inherent corrosion resistant properties, and touting them in the marketing of exhaust products? You will not incur such an exemption with any other manufacturer of aftermarket exhaust products.

I see you're in sunny Mission Viejo (I'm actually a little jealous), so I'm not sure if you have any experience living in a different climate, but I will say I live in an area that gets much more annual snowfall than the OP, have owned and modded cars for over twenty years and my honest opinion is that one winter of use on that stainless pipe was not the root cause of the failure. I have had lowly aluminized exhaust components, including flex sections still be structurally intact after several years. In fact, the original j pipe from my TL, which was on my car for two winters looks absolutely fine.

Have you even entertained the idea that there may have been a defect in the structural integrity of the braid that slipped past visual inspection when the product was new? These things do happen. In fact, after seeing the pictures in this thread of the j pipe with the entire braid wadded up inside the flex portion, I'd say it's quite plausible. Mike, you may be able to offer some insight on this aspect as well!

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Hey, I apologized for my piece and because of my assumption. But let's not forget, your business exists because of this forum. So the fact that I assumed you'd be on a thread that specifically calls out YOUR part and was constantly at the top of the "new posts" portion wasn't totally off base.

Please keep my name out of your trash talking because we supposedly moved on from that and apologized to each other.


**** Mod Edit

Off Topic Comments

I know this is an emotional and senstive issue, but lets please keep ALL posts on the topic of the current problem and/or resolution. Thanks.

Mod Edit ****


As far as coming in NOW and saying that you would take the jpipe back and reweld the flex...c'mon...he's looking to you for solution and asked for a new pipe. You had multiple opportunities to give him some OTHER options (including this one you now mention). The main option you are driving home was him paying 1/2 for a new one AND sending you his old one...then you blame him for seeming like that's the only option he was willing to take. That would mean he'd have paid you $650 for a Jpipe that would get sent to him with the same flex welded in that would presumably not last any longer than the first one. Is that really a viable option? Would YOU, as a customer of someone else's, take that option?

PS, I can tell in rereading what you wrote you're letting this bother you and you're taking it personally. Like I've mentioned when I IMMEDIATELY apologized, I assumed incorrectly...you are clearly an intelligent, shrewd, and well spoken person. You take your business and products personally, which is good...

I guess it just really annoyed me when I think we made peace and then you quote me twice and throw little jabs out there. Because unlike the original claims/jabs I threw out there assuming you MIGHT see this thread...you are writing it KNOWING I will read it.

J.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

You know you last three or four posters make some really excellent points here and in retrospect a lot more tact on my part in this thread would have been good. With regard to having taken what was said here personally, yes I definitely did. It is hard not to when you pour a lot of energy into a community only to have people turn on you so fast.

With regard to the product, a little more discussion or investigation would to worlds of good to everyone involved here. But, we never got there. My customer interactions were perfectly fine, and should have continued until a reasonable resolution was reached. Instead the degradation that occurred really makes everyone here look bad (except mrsteve, whose post gave me the most pause, even though I do have rebuttal).

All in all, nobody would like having said about there efforts what was said about mine. A community that I always viewed as respectful and worthy of the effort showed me a new face today. This emotional blow is really what fired me up prompting my replies. I don't think anyone could really blame my reaction here if the self-actualized themselves in my shoes. People also like to think because it is a business we are supposed to act like some kind of emotionless machine that gives outputs from input. Not Heeltoe. If you've ever tried calling and asking for advice, you know this. We put as much effort into customer satisfaction as humanly possible.

Professionalism to me went out the door when I saw what was said about my company. It was insulting and degrading and in my mind completely unacceptable. Thus I do not regret my responses here beyond the use of colorful language. What I do regret is that things could not have been worked out more properly before it got to this point. Mind you, it was not I that brought things here and the customer still had plenty of options in this case before taking it here. Simply getting backup in the forums is not what this turned into. It turned into a Heeltoe/ATLP hating and broderline boycotting rant by others.

As far as losing the loyalty of my customers because of this, I am not so sure. I don't expect many of the hating posts here were made by people who have worked with us more, nor were they prone to. The only reason I say this is because the vast majority of people we deal with (and those with problematic orders especially) are entirely happy with the outcome of their orders. We try extremely hard to provide customers with value that makes them come back over and over again. Case in point, we own ATLP...and we are shipping 2 XLR8 systems this week. This isn't about the products. It is about the bashing. Totally unnecessary.

We became a part of this community because of the quality of customer. It was a tough choice because indeed the ad fees here are higher than most other forums. I was not bitching about the fees, but rather more wondering what justifies the cost any more. It used the provide security because it kept the riff-raff out. All that is out the window now. Times change and a lot of times you can see it coming but this was more of a smack in the face. I'm not bitching about being a vendor here. I am bitching because apparently it doesn't earn us any respect as it used to do in 05-06. I am being labeled as some cut-rate merchant who doesn't care, and that is totally not the case. It is an insult. Take it as you will. From the bottom of my heart, this is a truly disappointing display here, one that we are definitely not accustomed to seeing happen on Acurazine.



if you can't tell, this is largely in response to mrsteve's post...



In my mind there are excuses and explanations. In this case, an excuse would be us totally dropping this case blaming it on any consequential factor we could come up with, in which case would you expect me to reply here at all? There is a specific explanation as to why this product corroded and we provided it. And that explanation does not YET include the notion of product defect or inferiority. At any rate, we were willing to accept a portion of the responsibility here because we regret what happened no matter who was at fault. Do you really think that if I was looking to weasel out of paying I would have made the offer I did? And if that offer was not good enough we could have explored other options. Again, never got that far.



"You should have simply said the product is out of warranty and stand by your offer for a discounted replacement. Leave it at that. If the customer isn't happy, respond to your critics here with the facts of your conversation but without the cry baby commentary.

The Heeltoe Automotive company comes across as a shop run by amateurs who take every business transaction or poor review that comes their way personally. "

Yes, you are probably right here. But then the mob would most likely continued and my integrity would have been continually challenged. With someone with as much integrity as myself that is a pretty hard nut to swallow. You might think it is immature, but maybe you haven't been in our position. It is a lot harder on this side. As much as amateurs as you might think we are, we are actually borderline masters at customer service. The reason why we take every transaction that goes poorly personally...it simply never happens. It doesn't happen because we nip issues before they come to this. Only when unreasonable or unworkable customers do what this customer did do things like this come up. Maybe I could respond a little more stoically, but heeltoe is built on actually care for customer reactions and perceptions being positive. This thread is unacceptable to us, and represents a huge failure. Not because of our response, but because of the entire page 2 that was generated before we even go involved.


"I'm picturing you standing there beating your chest egging people on for a fight. Grow up man. And while you're at it, get a real warranty policy."

Funny, I visioned many of the respondents here the exact same way before I replied. Or maybe you didn't read all that other slanderous crap that prompted my reply. And doesn't a simple virtual hand-shake mean anything? That is what we offer and few if any other vendors do that.


"So you claim it's not your fault. You claim it isn't the manufacturer's fault since the warranty claim was denied because it wasn't "within the preventable control of the manufacturer." Then who's fault is it? The customer's? The install doesn't appear to be conducted poorly. There are no visible scrapes on the plumbing forward or aft of the flex joint. What could the customer have done to prevent the damage to the product he purchased? Not driven on roads treated with salt or other semi-corrosive materials? That's a joke."

So, really, what would you do here?




anx12300c

"Have you even entertained the idea that there may have been a defect in the structural integrity of the braid that slipped past visual inspection when the product was new? These things do happen. In fact, after seeing the pictures in this thread of the j pipe with the entire braid wadded up inside the flex portion, I'd say it's quite plausible. Mike, you may be able to offer some insight on this aspect as well!"

So.....you are saying it went on as a defective part and we didn't catch it? Maybe...and could the customer have mentioned that prior to installing and driving on it for a year...maybe. But nobody noticed it so it either didn't exist so...now what...we can't prove it.





Many more comments but I can't see straight.




Anyway, I am clearly not going to win any popularity contests here. The important issues for me are here:



1) Did the customer have a legitimate complaint that the Heeltoe Customer Service was exhausted before bringing the issues public?

2) Is the part actually defective, therefore warranting full replacement, or was this an issue of accelerated wear do to a variety of factors that justified the goodwill offer we made, or could have prompted a more acceptable goodwill offer to the customer?



However these questions are answered will dictate how we handle issues from now on.

CLtotheTL32

iTrader: (3)

Marcus I don't appreciate the tone of that post. I know you're frustrated, which is understandable, but apparently you didn't catch the sarcasm of my post. If I was really worried or unhappy with my ATLP purchase, it wouldn't be on my car, I wouldn't post multiple videos of it on YouTube, and I wouldn't leave 5-star ratings on YOUR website. Come on.

Acuraholic

iTrader: (3)

I normally stay quiet on the boards because I spend more time with my family than worrying about a car part, but I have purchased with HeelToe before and had nothing but a great experience with Marcus in ordering my Wilwood BBK. the 3G TL forum is changing as our cars get more affordable to the younger crowd and you draw a more immature clientele. I also have an ATLP v2 j-pipe and have no complaints. The flex pipe actually is the cleanest part of this piece to be honest. I think this was blown totally out of proportion personally!

RJNN TL

I will post my response soon. I had a family member die recently. So I will be back with some answers. My apologies for lack of response. It's just been a really rough week... :/

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Ok...a little Thursday night sitcoms to calm the nerves.

Thought more about all this. I feel pretty bad for the way I reacted to the reactions of others here. It wasn't right and was unprofessional.

Actually because we try so hard to meet and exceed expectations the comments here stung more than I think most of you can understand. It is the care and personal ownership of each sale we make and each issue that comes up which causes us to respond so abruptly to assaults to our integrity.

I still feel like we did a good job for this customer while it was all in emails and expect that we'll continue things there. We fully intend to get this issue resolved the best we can. I am sorry if I offended anyone. I hope you can see that it wasn't coming from nowhere and this isn't the sort of thing that happens regularly, which is why we come so highly recommended.

We are also going to call each and every ATLP J-pipe customer in turn which we have on file in order to survey their satisfaction with the product and pursue quality improvements. This isn't to say that there was something wrong with this specific pipe, but if we can make it better we want to.

Marcus



PS: A totally unrelated issue, we had a j-pipe customer return a part that was broken last week, and we replaced it straight up as it was an obvious quality problem. It happens sometimes, and when it does we do know how to do the right thing. That customer gave us ample chance to resolve the issue prior to going public. You don't hear about the positive outcome because we are good at customer service and that is what people expect.

Comptechtl2367

This thread really blew up! I had to take the time and read all of it all over again.
Healtoe, when i ordered my J-Pipe i had great customer service and whenever i called or emailed i had a live person or a quick response back. I will buy from you again without a doubt. I dont think you over reacted at all to this thread, i agree it was blown up slightly before you got a chance to post on it. I would have done the same thing and "lost my cool" a few times on this board.
All that being said i do believe this pipe should have just been traded for a new one under the warrenty. as a consumer i would expect this pipe to last just as well if not longer then the OEM pipe. Being stainless i feel the flex should last at the very least 3 years in any driving conditions. If this was my pipe i know i would have just a mad as the OP.
Now my pipe is still perfect, i have had it on for maybe 1k miles and i store my TL in the winter so it was unfair of me to say there goes the resale, it was more just becasue once someone on this forum reads one bad thing about something it spreads like wild fire and then everyone thinks they are now and expert. I didnt mean anything against you company or the quality of your parts. I have never had any issues with my pipe at all.

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

Alittle jersey shore?

I didn't even think about this before, the jpipe must get atleast to 300 degrees, this has been a frigid winter this year, going from 300+ down to 20 in a short amount of time definitely puts extra stress on anything.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

I think we're all good here...we all got each other's point of view.
OP, very sorry to hear of your loss. I'm sure this issue isn't the most pressing for you at this point but it looks like Marcus has a (what I would consider) a very satisfactory solution for you when you come back to this.

Have a great weekend, All.
J.

jpgayan

A friendly suggestion for future claims. I imagine I'm not the only person on here who uses the TL as their daily and only driver. Sending a critical part back for repairs would leave my only car out of commission for a week or more. Perhaps make the standard offer a "local repair reimbursement" or "ship back for repair/replacement" option for the customer? It sounds like this whole thing was a combination of short tempers and inarticulate responses. I'm sure heeltoe isn't a crook looking to screw customers, just someone who takes pride in their work and got a little too defensive when attacked. Best of luck in all your endeavors.

nfnsquared

And some of this is "buyer beware"...i.e "read the fine print" or ask questions. In this case, it appears there were no specifics in the warranty.

Most warranties I'm familiar with specify that the vendor/manufacturer will, at their discretion, either repair or replace a defective item. It's pretty standard that in most cases the customer has no say in "replace" or "repair". And usually, the customer is responsible for shipping the defective part back to the vendor/manufacturer if necessary for inspection of the defect.

P1zzaman

iTrader: (1)

One thing to note for Marcus. I realize you strive for fantastic customer service and from my experience you achievex it with me. But remember you are running a business and there will be times when customers may feel they didnt receive a good service. That is ok as long as you act professional and not blow up like some of us we will see your side of things (talking about on the forum here not your private interaction with customer). Yes we are all humans but since you have a business reputation to protect you have to be more careful with words, even if the customer is vey difficult to deal with. Yes doesnt soind fair but thats business.

WRXtranceformed

I think Marcus had a right to feel attacked and overwhelmed by some of the responses. He probably handled it a lot better than 99% of people on here would have. I think replacing the flex section is a good compromise. I'm sure he will make it right, but unfortunately this might stick with him a while even though most of it was pretty unfair.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

I realized that this is only one occurrence and stuff like this only happens really one or twice a year at the extreme most and never really gets to this point.


The manufacturer of the pipes and I were examining the images more today and we are amazed at the damage however we can't get past all the other signs of corrosive elements on the underside of the car. The notion that "stainless doesn't rust" is a false one when you give the item more and more abuse. Temperature fluctuations, environment, grade of stainless all come into play. Surface area and roughness are also issues that impact the corrosion resistance of the parts (the surface area on a flex pipe assembly has got to be mind-blowing).

Are we surprised that this part rusted...a little. But when considering all the factors can we say it isn't possible? No way. And we can only go so far to prevent all possible failures. Like I said, I am going to be calling back as many previous customers as I can to see if I can get some more feedback. If it is a chronic problem we definitely have some work to do.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

I think if this were a widescale problem, we'd have heard about it many times by now (a la "do these rims/tires fit my car threads)...I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that this doesn't A) Mean HT or all of the various products you produce suck B) may be an isolated incident because of a bad "batch" or welding technique.

After the dust has settled, I still feel that way which supports what you just posted. We all think you have great products, HT, seriously...you really do and the fact that you're that passionate about the products and your name actually is a good thing IMHO. Again, assumption was that you had avoided the thread etc...you've cleared that up and I don't think there's anything else to prove. Put out a written warranty for the future, put a small caviat about higher corrosion may be experienced in areas where road salt and the like are used, reweld OP's Jpipe and go on about your business as if this thread was never started/written in/existed.

Just my toosense.

J.

ttribe

Hmmm, read the whole thread and have two comments -

1) OP - I get your disappointment with how the product deteriorated, but the vendor rants were premature and evidence of impatience;

2) HeelToe - It appears you tried to handle this offline in a reasonable manner. Not sure why you chose to use rather crude language to respond to your customer in a public forum. Regardless of his actions, you will be held to a higher standard as a professional (like it or not).

RJNN TL

Alright. Back. Sorry. But man this thread sure did come alive!! I will admit. Yes, I may have been a bit impatient. However I was a bit surprised that Heeltoe would post my exact emails between him and I. I didnt post his on here for a reason because I didnt consider it right. So I am surprised with those actions. Though, I was upset for many reasons of it's quality and how I was going to have to save up another $250 to get another pipe.

-However...HeelToe has messaged me. And we have came to a mutual agreement.-

Let's get this straight right now though.. I love ATLP products this just came as a surprise to me and how there wasnt any sort of warranty or pre-clarification about normal NY weather on an aftermarket Jpipe. Who knows, I MAY have been one of the few to have this issue. But I believe we all learned stuff from this thread and now Heeltoe is assuring as we saw above to increase there quality satisfaction. This was just unfortunate it had to all go down this way.. I apologize if I came out as kinda snappy at some points, but another Jpipe that I have to pay half the value for kinda came as an unhappy surprise.

I love my ATLP base exhaust and every item i've bought from HT in the past. This was just unfortunate. That's all.

RJNN TL

I greatly appreciate that. It's been a hard... week. Marcus and I are fine now. He offered me an option that seems fair. So this thread might have gotten crazy but it looks like we all kept our cool for the most part. Sorry I took so long to respond! :P

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

He posted the emails because u weren't clear about the details. Also this winter was not anywhere near normal, atleast on long island

dj5

I’ve been on the Acurazine forum for a long time (11 years). I joined back on 2000 when I bought my first TL. I upgraded to a 2002 TL-S and now a 2008 TL-S. I did quite a few modifications to my 2002 TL-S which included Comptech icebox, headers, springs, sways. Cooling mods and bored out Throttle body from Kingmotorsports and IM and throttle bottle gaskets.

I do quite a bit of research before doing any mod to my car and appreciate anytime someone posts an issue with a particular part as it provides input to any potential buyers.
There was an issue similar to the OP post with Comptech Springs. The powder coat did not hold up in climates where salt was used on the streets. There was a post with someone having a problem with the springs rusting to the point that one actually broke.
Other folks starting checking their springs; including me to find out they were severely rusted and did not hold up like the OEM springs. Comptech stepped up and offered to replace the springs free of charge even though they were out warranty. In some cases where folks had them installed by a Comptech approved shop, they also paid for the labor costs. If I had a J-pipe deteriorate like the OP, I would have expected the company to step up and replace the pipe with a new one at no charge. I still would not be completely happy as I would be inconvenienced by installing the original, then uninstalling, shipping at my expense and then reinstalling the replacement. The original j-pipe would then have to be installed or the car would be un-drivable until the replace part arrived.

There would be absolutely no way I would pay any additional money for a replacement pipe from the same manufacturer as the 1st lasted only a year. If the quality is as advertised, this should be a one off that the vendor should replace as goodwill. However, it did sound like from one of the Vendor posts that these aftermarket parts do not have the longevity of the OEM parts especially in harsh climates. If that had been known, there would probably have been a few folks that may have made a different decision about their purchase. If Heeltoe had come to the forum and said hey this looks like a one off problem and we are going to replace the pipe it would have generated far more goodwill than the negative goodwill generated by the emotional posts.

I have been researching and thinking about buying a j-pipe for over a year and this thread has helped me make a decision on my potential purchase. Thanks again to the OP for taking the time to post along with the pictures. Hopefully some amicable decision will be made on your particular problem.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

On further examination of the images, and having new J-pipe on the shelf and shipping now, the current flex joint being used TODAY is not the same as the one the OP is running. This one part has been updated 2-3 times over the long production of the ATLP J-pipe and the viability of future sales on this part cannot solely be determined on pre-update parts from the past.



dj5, your input is appreciated. I'd note that while the option I presented to the OP was the less desirable one for them, and for you, it is actually the more costly one to me. Paying to repair the J-pipe at no cost, even with shipping both ways, is cheaper for me than the cost of lost profit on selling a brand new one. While the option to replace at a cost was an unpopular one, I thought it was going to be more well received by all. It was only but one acceptable resolution that we (meaning me and any potential customer, yourself included) could have come to.

I would actually add to the post youmade, from a vendor point of view are:

1A) Springs and J-Pipes are sort of apples and oranges with respect to corrosion. One would not under any circumstance expect a spring to rust and break. Rusting and braking springs is a legitimate safety concern which makes it imperative that all failing parts be taken off the road. A j-pipe problem that could be traced to engine fires, for example, would most definitely justify replacing all effected parts with updated ones for all customers, free of charge.
1B)Springs are coated and therefore should not under any circumstances rust. A j-pipe comes with no such coating and instead is made of a rust resistant material. Resistant, because frankly no steel is completely rust proof. In order to produce a j-pipe that was more rust proof than they are would raise costs considerably. Note that the customer has indicated the cost of the j-pipe was already "expensive" and therefore that makes us hesitant to raise costs at all, even though we really do need to do that right now to keep the product line viable...

2) The j-pipes experience heat that the springs don't, catalyzing rust propagation.


In extreme conditions the rust is somewhat inevitable and therefore having a blanket "we'll replace it if it rusts" policy is impractical. Metrics for eligibility need to be put in place. What degree of rust needs to be present for replacement? Also, the cost on all j-pipes sold needs to go UP to absorb the cost of replacing J-pipes all over the Eastern seaboard.

We would LOVE to replace everyone's j-pipe that experiences rust. But it seems to us that a smaller than 1% failure rate doesn't warrant raising the cost 5-10% to account for the no-questions-asked replacement of parts. It has me thinking of an extended service or product warranty plan, something you might get at Best Buy for example. Warrants leaking coilover dampers, rusty pipes, etc, for a certain time frame after the factory warranty expires. We'd charge it during checkout. Any feedback to this idea is appreciated!

Rusted exhaust pipes, stainless or not, should not seem like breaking news to anyone. As noted, above, the accelerated corrosion of this part is prompting us to repair the item free of charge for the OP.


The question of the part asked about OEM longevity versus Aftermarket longevity...I wanted to say something there as well. We can make items last as long as OEM. It will cost about 3x as much to do that. The materials and processes OEMs use are considerable more high-end than aftermarket parts that replace them. Springs. J-pipes. Headlights. Everything on the car is very well made and produced to stand the test of time. The reason an OEM J-pipe does not cost 3x as much as it does is because they may hundreds of thousands of them. They are also designed to be as easily produced as possible. If ATLP made that many J-pipes we could spec them out the same way and probably charge half as much as we do now. And if they were made as easy to produce as possible they would not likely meet the performance and fitment demands of customers.

The long and the short is, from a buyer's standpoint we want to compare cost and quality to OEM. However aftermarket performance parts are made with considerably different goals in mind: power increase. Longevity is a priority, but cost is even more important (never have I asked if people were interested in a part did they respond with "sure as long as it loasts a long time"). We still need to meet cost/production demands, but something has to give in. From a manufacturer's standpoint, comparing to OEM is as impossible as it is impractical.


Last point!

I at this time would like to highlight the fact that, while Heeltoe owns ATLP brand and parts now, XLR8 and RV6 items are still on sale on Heeltoeauto.com, and we provide these items willingly and happily to any customer who wants them. I want to caution people against feeling that under the guise as a manufacturer Heeltoe is somehow providing inferior service that their retail customers are used to.

CLtotheTL32

iTrader: (3)

I would without a doubt purchase some sort of "extended warranty plan" through you Marcus. I don't pour as much money into my car as some members here, but when and if I do, it would be nice to know that the product would be covered if something were to happen.