BustedJack

Folks,
Have you noticed your car is shifting harder under WOT after the switch recommended by ComptechUSA using the REDLINE ''HIGH TEMP'' Automatic Transmission Fluid?

*credit to Mike (thanks)*
The Redline High-Temperature fluid is of a much higher viscosity, about 5W30 engine oil viscosity, as opposed to a low 0W20 like viscosity of normal ATF.

Redline High-Temperature ATF is a Dexron-III/Mercon fluid. Honda Z1 contains a higher level of friction modification. Theoretically, the two are not interchangeable and the usage of Dexron-III fluids in a Honda application will yield harsh shifts.

I really do not understand why Comptech is recommending High-Temp ATF in Hondas. I think they were misled by Redline technical servcies, who themselves, are not familiar with the differences between the two.

Since you've only done two fluid changes, it's possible that the remaining 35% of Honda Z1 in the system, along with adjustments from the adaptive driving software for the transmission, is not allowing for obvious differences in shift quality.

The only synthetic ATF I recommend for Honda transmission is Amsoil ATF.

I was very skeptical about changing them at first, but ComptechUSA technician insisted that I change it out because we don't have an intercooler. They've been testing the vehicle with Redline and have been driving the car since 2005 and finds no problems....
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/7804/img32226gi.jpg
hmmmm... but the contents between the 2 (Honda ATF and RedLine just don't match)

what are your inputs?

MugenR

hmmm... this worries me.. i got the redline ATF when i bought the supercharger, haven't installed it yet.

but with the Honda not being able to make a very solid automatic transmission for the J-series, harder shifts worry me.

I would also like to get input about this...

I remember my friend with an 1998 Accord V6 and he put in Redline ATF and after awhile it started to misshift. brought it to honda and they blamed it on the Redline. eeek!

SodaLuvr

AcuraDriver2006,
I didn't see this thread until MB told me about it.

Basically to reiterate what I told AcuraDriver2006 earlier, the Redline High-Temp ATF starts out as a low 30wt compared to a mid-20wt, which is where most conventional ATFs start out.

The added viscosity is designed to provide better protection during extreme driving events such as off-roading (not applicable), extreme track events, etc. Under normal driving, it is unnecessary, but should not be harmful either.

Redline High-Temp ATF is a Dexron-III/Mercon type fluid. Its dynamic friction properties are different than Honda Z1. I happen to know that Honda Z1 is more friction modified in comparison to Dexron-III/Mercon fluids, and the usage of a Dexron-III/Mercon fluid will yield harsher/harder shifts.

Any Dexron-III/Mercon fluid may be used in Honda transmissions, but the addition of Lubegard "Black" Highly Friction Modified Supplement at the dosage of 1oz for every quart of Dexron-III/Mercon fluid installed is necessary to attain the correct shift feel. More may be necessary as Honda transmissions tend to shift harder, so in some cases, 1.25-1.5oz/qt may be needed, but start with 1oz/qt. A re-learn of the transmission software may reduce the need for Lubegard beyond the 1oz/qt dosage.

In other words, Redline High-Temp ATF/Lubegard "Black" will work fine in a Honda transmission, but you can save yourself the hassle by using Amsoil Universal ATF, which is already Honda Z1 compatible.

JDM5lugHatch

Comptech told me the reason for the Redline High-Temp fluid is to reduce tranny temps. Anyone with the AT will know that after a lot of city driving on a hot day the car becomes sluggish and feels like it's taking off from second gear. Comptech clamis that Redline's fluid actually showed a 20degree drop in fluid temps without the addition of a tranny cooler. The problem with this tranny is heat. I have been researching to see how I can install a tranny cooler. Unfortunately the 3GTL isn't like the 2nd gen or even the 6th gen accord where it has lines that run to the radiator to help cool the tranny. Instead it has this heat reducer type unit mounted on top of the tranny. This heat reducer is inadequite though.

BustedJack

Mike
I've added 5oz as per your instruction and see where it goes from here. It's been about 30 miles and 5 hours since I've added the Lubegard "Black" Highly Friction Modified Supplement and so far the shifting seems to be very smooth during normal driving However, under WOT, it still continues to shift hard but perhaps that's the way it should be. We'll see how it goes and if I have any question or concern, I will pm you.
You've been a "GREAT" help, I thank you so much for this
Glad to have you with us, I put you next to RoadRage and Ryan87912 as great reputation members.

Jack

SodaLuvr

Jack,

Thanks for the compliments. I'll call up Pat at Lubegard later this week to see what he suggests. In the meantime, keep an eye on it and see how it performs. Was the shifting also harsh under normal driving conditions before the Lubegard?

I think the transmission isn't shifting as smoothly as it can at this point possibly because the transmission was "adjusted" by its software to account for the previously "different" fluid. Over time, the transmission will re-learn, but this will occur slowly. You can speed up this process by disconnecting the battery cables (make sure you have your security codes), leaving it unconnected overnight, and reconnecting them the following morning. This will erase the memory from the transmission software that learns your transmission shifts. Upon resuming car operation after reconnecting the battery cables, you should drive very smoothly and it will force the software to relearn the shifts once again.

If even after that procedure it still shifts harshly, add the other 5 oz. But I will definitely call up Lubegard later this week and report back.

Mike

special-ed

Hey JDM, I don't even have that little round apparatus on top of my tranny but I did get the oil jet kit installed from the dealer, just looks alot different than what you have if that is supposed to be it. Also, one of the guys from europe that's on here has a tranny cooler installed. He has the part numbers and everything but you gotta do the search since I can't remember his tag. The tranny cooler was only like $70-100 from what I recall and I even look at the webpage from where he purchased it from for his 3gen.

JDM5lugHatch

ED- Tranny coolers are even cheaper than that unless you go with something like an Earl's cooler which is a bar and plate design like intercoolers. B&M tranny coolers are about $40 on ebay. I did search before but found nothing on here. I'll try again.

JDM5lugHatch

ED- Thanks I found the guy you were talking about. Took awhile but I did find him.

againstallodds1

I got A B$M tranny cooler, but I was told you cant use it cause our tranny has a hard line that you cant tap into.

JDM5lugHatch

I think there is a way. Unfortunately I haven't figured it out. I believe it may require bypassing that unit I posted a picture of. However, I want to know for sure before I start experimenting if you know what I mean. I don't really wanna make my car the guinea pig but if that's the only way to find a way then I may have no choice.

againstallodds1

I have the tranny cooler, I want to know if there is a way, if there is I will do it. Ill look closer at the pic and see if you can tap in to it. I have the supercharger and I will feel alot better if I know that there is a tranny cooler on it.

smooth~silver_type_s

hey 5AT supercharged guys.

-what have you done about the cooling down of your automatics?

-did you guys finally get high temp atf+lube guard to work?

-Did any of you stick to honda atf?

were you able to install the comptech tranny cooler?(i.e tap into your lines?)

I really feel you guys should even be using these types of coolers:

http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/remote-mount.html

SodaLuvr

I'll summarize my findings:

1) Amsoil ATF works well in Honda Automatics without the need for additional additives.

2) If you're using something other than Genuine Honda Z-1 or Amsoil ATF, you'll need to add Lubegard HFM Supplement (Black Bottle) @ 1.0-1.5oz/qt dosage to obtain the correct shifting characteristics.

3) Do not use Redline High-Temp ATF. Its viscosity is too high and can ultimately cause unexplained shifting difficulties as the transmission is not designed to operate with such a high viscosity fluid. If you insist on using a Redline ATF product, use D4 ATF with the Lubegard HFM Supplement.

4) If you're using something other than Genuine Honda Z-1 or Amsoil ATF, drain/fill the transmission fluid at least every 30,000 miles to keep the friction modifiers and anti-shudder additives refreshed, as I'm uncertain how long the Lubegard will last before shifting problems begin to develop.

5) Don't worry about the cooler. Use Amsoil ATF, or RL/M1 ATF with Lubegard, changed frequently, and you should be fine.

againstallodds1

On the 3rd gen TL it is hard lined to the tranny. So it makes it hard to tap into. I am using the redline HIGH TEMP ATF with michaels suggestion of lubegard. Its seems to work good for me. The shifting is a little harder than normal though. I just like the high temp to be safe.

SodaLuvr

How much Lubegard are you using? How many ounces per quart?

I'm no longer a fan of the High-Temp product (or was I ever), as the increased viscosity provides little or no benefit with regards to "increased protection" for street vehicles and even ones used occassionally at the track. The higher viscosity may actually be what's causing the harder shifting.

againstallodds1

I used about half a bottle to the 3 qrts of redline.

SodaLuvr

That should be plenty of Lubegard....

Probably the viscosity is a bit higher than normal, thus shifting being a bit firmer.

Are the shifts slightly firmer than Honda Z1 or is it significantly firmer?

smooth~silver_type_s

I still think that they need the tranny cooler, for supercharged applications.

smooth~silver_type_s

why don't you switch to amsoil atf instead of redline high temp atf. If you do stick with redline, then you need to check the condition of the fluid regularly. That dextran stuff degrades pretty quick, which is why there is a warning about it, included in the instruction manual.

againstallodds1

Yea I am almost due for a oil change. I think I am going to switch to Amsoil ATF. I dont like what I am hearing about the redline.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

redline is excellent if it is used in the proper application. firmer shifts don't necessarily mean bad things.

big mike 13

can anyone tell me where to get Redline from besides comptech?
thanks

SodaLuvr

www.myoilshop.com

BustedJack

I can easily change out the Redline ATF into Amsoil ATF, but question is Amsoil ATF compatible for a S/C TL?

typeR

in fact hondas switch to softer shifts in there auto products have shown direct relationships with increased trans failure...the slower"softer" engaging shifts produce more heat ...i think the 20* cooler opp temps that comp tech sees is a direct result of the sift completing faster "harsher"



to the guy whos freind put in redline in his accord then lost the tranny and was denied warranty i call BS even if he told them he used it ...the manual says the use of DEXIII is acceptable when honda is not available,two they would still have to prove the failure occured from the use of this other fluid ...and to anyone else with these concerns i assure you that noone at your dealership will be placing your transmission fluid in a

GAS CHROMATIGRAPH MASS SPECTROMETER

before offering you service... my '98 accord V6 ' trans was just replaced free of charge..it does only have 46,000 miles and im am the first owner but still it's 8 yrs old and they replaced it no questions

SodaLuvr

True. Honda does not test their fluids in the event of a warranty claim, usually, from what I've been told. Even if they did find out, they'd have to link the damage to the fluid, at which point, you'd go after Lubegard and/or Amsoil.

However, be warned that Hyundai uses a chemical tracer in their fluid that can be detected easily via an IR analysis.

Complete nonsense. The softer shifts are completely unrelated to transmission failure. Many cars have soft shifts, Toyotas AW units, Fords, GMs, etc...and I see no evidence that their failure rate is any higher due to the softer shifts.

The reduction in temperatures are purely due to the synthetic fluid...

Harder shifts are not always "better." They can cause excessive wear from the clutch materials. This is why the correct "blend" of friction modifiers is so important. The fluid needs to be slick enough to allow for smooth shifts, but not to the point where there's too much slippage, causing excessive wear. Same goes for firmness. If the shifts are too firm, excessive wear could be problem as well.

typeR

complete nonsense is alittle bold... i didnt say softer shifts couldnt be acheived with in a properly designed auto trans ...but my belief is that honda lengthened the engagement duration resulting in less shock ,but increased heat build up and meterial shed.

ACCURATEin

I've been running Amsoil ATF in my transmission for 12,000 miles since the supercharger went on and it shifts like a champ.

SodaLuvr

Until you have evidence to back up your claim, its your speculation only, sorry.

Yes, it is compatible with Honda transmissions without needing to add Lubegard.

Redline D4 or Mobil 1 Multi-Vehicle synthetic ATFs will work fine in the TL, but adding 1-1.5oz/qt of Lubegard Black Bottle is needed. Shifts should be smooth with this mix, but a change every 20-30K will be needed to maintain shift quality as I'm unsure how long Lubegard will last.

The firmer shifting people are seeing with the Redline High-Temp/Lubegard mix, according to the chemist, is purely due to the higher viscosity of the High-Temp fluid. Given that it provides little or no benefits over the lower viscosity D4, I really see no reason to use it.

I hate cars

Lots of bad info here.

First off, you need a cooler, especially with a supercharger regardless of what kind of fluid you're using. The cooler is the best thing you can do to extend the life of the tranny. I'm installing one on my bone stock TL this weekend. It is a necessity.

The best shifts are the ones you can't say anything about. Doesn't feel firm but doesn't feel sloppy. It's a balancing act between breaking hard parts (too firm) and excessive clutch wear (too soft).

Soft shifts do not make any measurable heat. The heat comes from the torque convertor.

The Honda fluid is made to work with the clutch material in this specific tranny. I would stick with OEM fluid and run a good cooler.

I found out the hard way in my old days racing my turbo car. I used to use the Ford type "F" trans fluid because it made a noticably harder shift. What I didn't know is it actually lowered the holding power of the clutches and even though I got firmer shifts, the trans ended up slipping and burning up.

typeR

i guess the evidence im going by is the provided data on shift duration in the CL type S along with the revised shift duration from the bandaid number two(ECU exchange). and the fact that Honda cant seem to build an Auto trans for it's V6's that can stay together...

AcurasGhost

wow. pretty scary talking about replacing the tranny for a supercharger. I had a 1st gen TL for 150,000 miles and the tranny was notorious for its tranny as well. Acura, go figure. Good thing I'm not in the market for those back ordered S/C's anytime soon ...

Maybe a carbon fiber drive shaft would help or is it the actualy components in the trans? I had to replace the trans solenoid in my 98 TL tranny, but after that it was a lot better. Obviously that car didnt have the S/C tho ...

BustedJack

OK, alot of different opinion here. Alot of good info....
since I originated the thread, I'd like to take a different angle....... here we go


AMSOIL ATF vs Redline ATF

which is better? I'm currently running RL ATF...shifting seems really smooth after adding Lubeguard but after 3+hrs of driving or heavy WOT, it's shifting hard.....

discuss please.

I hate cars

Stock fluid, good trans cooler.

againstallodds1

Its too hard to do a trans cooler in our car, it is hard lined to the radiator. We tried it with my car, I have a B&M tranny cooler in my garage, I wanted to put it on but we found out it has a hard line.

I hate cars

I saw a trans cooler kit for our cars. It's very possible and it's the #1 mod you can do to the trans. I'm surprised Acura put such a crappy cooler on our cars. Aftermarket fluids are more of a bandaid for our lack of a cooler. You can run synthetic fluids and it might help a little (big maybe) but you're not fixing the cause of the problem. If it's this big of a deal, maybe I'll put togther a kit once I do mine.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

i'd have to agree with you to a point. early to mid 90s ford/gm trucks are notorious for needing tranny rebuilds at 100k and sometimes earlier. granted they are trucks, but shouldnt their tranny be designed to take the abuse?

and toyota/lexus... yes, VERY soft. i own both acura/lexus and i am well aware of how soft the transmissions are, and guess what the toyota/lexus performance commonity COMPLAINS about? soft shifts. theres a huge market over there for stall converters, but no one has yet to put out a performance oriented tranny which would do extremely well, bc these guys want firmer shifts. that's why supra parts are so often interchanged because of their performance oriented build.

I hate cars

A high stall convertor will make shifts feel softer. I had my trans on my turbo car built when I had a 3,800 stall convertor. The shifts were great. I had to take the convertor out one day and I put the stock 2,400 stall back in temporarily and shifts were harsh as in chirping the tires with my foot barely on the gas on the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts.

A higher stall convertor will require a trans cooler even more so than adding the blower.

outersquare

This cuts both ways,

The theory is smooth shifts typically means some amount of slippage of friction surfaces. Hard shifts less so. On many modified higher power auto imports, the clutch packs are usually the first to go. For lexus/toyo autos, just a shift kit/valve body upgrade significantly increases power holding, which is achieved through faster/harder shifts.

A 20 deg reduction is very significant. If comptech already tested it and it caused no failures over a year, that's hard to argue against, particularly considering the additional power over stock.


OTOH, honda's ATF Z1 is a hydrocracked base oil, similar stuff that lesser "synthetic" oils are made from, so it's not too shabby to begin with. I've also seen a contention that honda's fluid contains additives that coats clutch packs thus minimizing wear.

Particularly with DBW cars, I recall that honda kills power between shifts so it won't be harsh anyways. They also sometimes pull timing durings shifts on direct ignition motors, basically anything reasonably modern.