SRT-11

OK so I'm curious. I'm going to do a slew of mods all on the same day to try and make a substantial difference at the ol' SOTP dyno (I might splurge on a before/after real dyno too) Currently I have sitting in my garage (or coming in the mail):

-K&N Typhoon CAI (with two layer thermal wrap stuff)
-P2R TB Spacer
-Excelerate IM Thermal Gasket
-Custom Ground Kit (why not, right?)
-UR Stock Diameter Lightweight pulley
-"Type R" License plate frame (kidding)
-Precat Deletes
-ATLP J Pipe
-ATLP Test Pipe

Debating having a custom exhaust made, but I want quiet exhaust, at least under 2500-3000rpm. If I did go custom exhaust, it would be replacing the factory resonator and third muff with a LONG 2.5" in/out resonator (36" plus) to a Y 2.5" in/2.25" outs to two borla turbo mufflers or two hushpower mufflers, whatever would be deeper and quieter.

Also debating engine mounts but you guys are going to have to be test dummies for me on that one.

Questions: how many hp you think i'll get out of that laundry list? How many more if I get the exhaust made? I really don't want loud exhaust though, I love driving this car, partially because it's such a comfy ride on the road partially due to the low noise level.

dr_brains510

-K&N Typhoon CAI (with two layer thermal wrap stuff)- 3-5
-P2R TB Spacer- 1-2 (although one person got 5; don't expect that)
-Excelerate IM Thermal Gasket- 1-2
-UR Stock Diameter Lightweight pulley- 1-2
-Precat Deletes- ~15
-ATLP J Pipe- 10-12 (considering you've got ATLP exhaust)
-ATLP Test Pipe- 2-3 (considering you've got ATLP exhaust)

if you want a quiet exhaust get the comptech exhaust.

o4Komodo

iTrader: (2)

Type-R license plate.. well you'd need a good set of Type-R stickers as well.
Each Type-R item is known to give something along the lines of 50whp.
The more the better.

01tl4tl

about half of whatever they are claimed to get~
do a dyno before and after
Make sure to replace spark plugs with all this -- to have max fire

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

01tl04tl is correct in part... You will see 20hp total, but not becuase some mods don't add power alone, but becuase the mods don't mathematically add hp on top of themselves unless you are supercharged...

Now, should you buy a greddy blue and a plug and play harness, pay a tuner $200-300 to get you an n/a tune you'd max out those mods and get another 10hp... (There will be a lot of members who read the tune part and say thats not true yadda yadda)... Fact is an air fuel ratio slightly richer low end and a miniscule change throughout the band and you'd get instant gains... But we'll never know until I do it hahahahaha

As for custom catback, you'll have to chop up your stock exhaust, starting with the flange behind the 3rd cat, run 2.5" straight pipe for 1 foot, place an aero 2.5" resonator followed by 2.5" tubing section for a couple feet to a small bend where the mid muffler was, to a magnaflow y pipe in 2.5" out to two 2.25" then tubing to the right and to the left, with the muffler of your choice

SRT-11

That was my plan, do you think this'd be as quiet or quieter than comptech? and still yield the 5-10hp? I don't want loud, and I REALLY don't want a drone...

SRT-11

Huh. See I was thinking quite differently, that the precats would only give me about 5 total, that the pulley was closer to 8hp, the j pipe another 5, test pipe, I agree around 3, and the p2r spacer closer to 5. I was expecting about 15-20 at the wheels out of this, total.

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

for the money you'll be spending if I were you I'd get a tsx catback and extend it slightly... that was my plan before the greddy evo

imj0257

iTrader: (1)

get a "Type-R" sticker it will add 15+ hp

01tl4tl

the light pully helps but since its stock size- not as much as the underdrive units
Claimed 8-11 hp, but at the wheels, thats maybe 4 in real life

MINIFVR

If you do the exhaust in stainless it will be expensive, but I like the idea of the Borla mufflers. They would sound nice. I would have thought that intake/exhaust combo would yield the combined numbers. You would think that both would benefit from each other, right? You might lose a little low-end from the cat-back but thats about it.

How much hp does the j-pipe add? Is it worth it?

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

If you think a spacer'll give you 5 whp, I've got a bridge to sell you, cheap! It will complement a CAI however, and keep your TB cooler, as long as you use the thermal gaskets.

Same goes for the pulley. Look at it this way: A 6MT base model puts out 258 crank/~223 wheel, meaning 35 is lost post crank. Now you've got the flywheel, clutch, tranny, axles, wheels and tires eating up that 35 HP. Do you really think that losing a measly 6 or 7 lbs from a pulley is going to free up almost 1/4 of that 35HP?

The fact is, we'll never truly know what these mods are capable of, independently, until someone dynos each and every one of them before/after on the same day/dyno. Although I will say that on these cars, an intake, P2R and gaskets and a pulley seem to net 10 or 11 on a six speed.

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

You guys fail to recognize the inconsistency of dynos in realizing these gains...

I've flat dyno'd back to back runs with no changes to my car and seen variations of 7-10 hp (up and down) with 30 minute gaps in between.

P2R adds power... I don't buy it.
Pulley adds power? A negligiable amount, Pulley reduces spinning mass, improving throttle response... little to no power is realized.

More power is realized through more air and more fuel. Intake and exhaust mods are the only power adders, and they only add power to a point. Pre-cats/jpipes and CAI are the only real power adders, and you'll only get about 25 HP max from those... and that's it without more displacement, forced induction, and better tuning.

Topic over. Spacers, pulleys, and gaskets do not add power...
They might on a 350 small block chevy, but not these highly tuned Honda motors. They're purely feelgood mods.

BLKURA

Ha ha ha, i love these threads!

SRT-11

What if I put like a LOT of type R stickers? can I break 400 rwhp N/A?

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

fosho

make sure you put them on your engine covers and windshield.

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

toughguy81984j

how about just an AEM CAI? anyone have proof or papers of how much these actually gain?

BLKURA

A few days ago I installed the P2R on my 08 type s and is the third TB spacer I've intalled on three different vehicles. I'd say that i felt a difference after I installed it on the TL. Once the engine warmed up it went away. I guess this mod is only good untill the TB and spacer warm up and then gain disappear. Or maybe it's all in my head!?

Eoanou

Expect 25WHP on a 6M/T 18WHP on a 5AT.

That's what I'd say.

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

Likely.

You disconnect the battery? If you did, what you likely felt was the engie re-setting the ECU, which gives a "different" feel to the throttle response for the first few miles...

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

The difference would not be 7WHP between the two.

BLKURA

Nah, I didnt disconnect the battery. I didnt know that doing that on these newer vehicles reset the ecu.

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

you sure about that?

MINIFVR

Does anyone have a concrete answer as to what the A/T has in the car that the M/T doesn't have that would cause the gains to be lower? The torque converter?

After cruising around on some other forums about the issue (vw, lexus, bmw..) it seems that it depends on the type of auto tranny that the car has. 'locked up' vs. 'not locked up'? Im no expert so Im not sure what to make of it. It seems that the majority agree that the A/T has more drivetrain loss, but a reason...hmmm

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

yes the torque converter is your culprit... ... what you need to know is that when you mod the car up no matter to what limit if it is an auto it won't throw out as many hp as a manual... you can tell by the s/c guy's numbers, auto just over 300... manual well over 320

Eoanou

There was a thread about this, but for some reason I can't find it, I would've posted the link.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

Ok, so if there's a 20HP difference on an entire supercharged engine, why would you have a 7hp difference with 25-30 crank horsepower. It makes no sense. You're looking at 22-23 whp on a 5AT if the 6MT is gaining 25.

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

you said it... because it is forced induction... NOT A BOLT ON

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

My point was that when you're talking about the entire engine, the difference between auto and manual is significant, right? I think we can all agree that a base TL is rated 258 crank and that the 6MT dynos ~222 and 5AT~205.

So on the entire 258hp engine, the difference in whp between the two trannys is ~17, but you guys seem to think that mods totalling 25-30 crank horsepower will yield a 7hp difference between the two. Why?

If you take the average 6MT dyno in stock form, at 222, you have a parasitic loss of roughly 14%. 222/258=.86, which means 86% of the crank ponies made it to the wheels, or 14% was consumed by the drivetrain.

Now take the average 5AT at ~205whp and divide 205/258=.794, which we'll round up to .795, meaning 79.5% makes it to the wheels, or in other words, a parasitic loss of 20.5% being consumed by the drivetrain.

Effectively, the difference between the two trannys is 6.5% which is uncommon with today's automatics, really, but Honda isn't exactly known for making efficient automatics.

Now lets add an intake, spacer, pulley, j-pipe, test, and cat back, and hypothetically say these mods will make the same 30 horsepower AT THE CRANK on both the 5AT and 6MT, putting both cars at 288 crank.

On the 6MT you have 288x.86=247.68 at the wheels.

On the 5AT you have 288x.795=228.96 at the wheels.

So what did each one gain from the same 30 crank hp?

228.96-205 (stock)=23.96 whp gained for the 5AT

247.68-222 (stock)=25.68

So round up and call it 2 hp more for the manual. The parasitic loss is always going to remain constant, whether the engine is stock or modded.

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

I wish you'd understand that it is not a mathematical equation...

chalk it up to different dyno machines, variables and plain mystery rather than calculating without taking into account that not all these mods were dyno'd at the same facility and there are no before after dyno's on the same day mins between each other

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

But it is a mathematical equation to be used as a rough guideline. Until someone changes their driveline/switches to lighter wheels/changes their clutch etc, the roughly 14/20% parasitic loss will remain constant for these cars, whether the engine produces 300 crank horsepower or 600.

And what mods weren't dynoed at the same facility? We're not talking about any specific car or dyno pull. We're talking about the mean gains one would expect to achieve with a given set of upgrades. If you did baseline an auto and a manual on the same dyno/day, then again directly after adding the aforementioned bolt-ons, I think the difference between the two would be neglible. But you're entitled to your opinion.

Snookynibbles

I would agree that the greatest na power adding bolt-ons are related to intake/exhaust. However, I’d assert that (underdrive) pulleys, and phenolic spacers (i.e., heat isolation gaskets) DO indeed add (real) power too.

1. RE the ‘OUTLAW ENGINEERING’ phenolic spacers, the rationale is simple…greatly retard the conductive transfer of heat between engine components & the intake, and you have a cooler intake manifold & throttlebody. Cooler = denser, more oxygen rich mixture, hence greater power per cylinder charge…simple. And it works, I’ve done before/after hand-on-top of the manifold tests re a specific driving routine/duration to know that the spacers keep the intake cooler. OUTLAW ENGINEERING also provides specific before/after dyno data (ref the Gen 2 TL). Digression: OK, to be more precise about it, technically, these spacers don’t ‘make’ more power, they delay the degradation of power common to every car that hits the road for a drive where the intake starts off cold, and ends up ‘heat soaked’ from conductive, convective, and from radiant heat coming off the engine that gets transferred to the intake assembly. These spacers provide a comparative advantage against an identical setup not using them. Ultimately on a very long drive the intake will get hot. Notwithstanding, it’s incorrect to state that this mod fails to bring actual value.

Continuing with the value of keeping the intake as cool as possible, there’s also value (albeit small) in using heat shield materials that wrap the CAI pipe. Full race setups often employs these, and most assuredly not merely as a ‘feel good’ placebo.

2. Re Under-drive pulleys also do add power by way of reducing the parasitic losses from the engine driven accessories. Indeed it’s dubious to claim ridiculous gains from this mod, but again, to say they are of no or even of little benefit is not accurate either. Practically speaking, the collective gains of all one’s mods is what matters…big & small alike.

And there are various other mods that contribute to gains as well. Example: throttle body mouth widening, and bridge narrowing mods will increase intake flow…not great gains, but still a logical mod for one seeking to maximize intake flow.

One last point… Unfortunately too many consider the value of a power add mod only from looking at the max hp gains at an engine’s peak output rpm. I would suggest this is somewhat short-sighted since various mods add hp/torque at various rpm ranges, some well below peak engine output (rpm). And this is actually desirable insofar as a hard-accelerating TL’s motor is rarely turning above 6K rpm…mostly it’s struggling through its ‘taller’ gears to get to its peak rpm. All this to say I wouldn’t pooh-pooh a mod simply because it’s not as great a contributor as CAI/performance exhaust.

Sorry for being so long-winded…be glad I don’t post much…my family weathers the brunt of my chit-chat! lol