3G TL flash pro
10-02-2012, 08:22 AM
#201
Is it ever possible to get the idle totally stable? Because we are still allowing the throttle to be controlled by the idle control circuit in the factory ECU, you're always going to have two independent brains doing what it thinks it should to keep things running as it should.
If the DBW delete that Gerzand is working on only defeats traction and cruise control, I think that's the way to go. Then we could replace the existing TB with a unit that has the IACV and use the MS3 to control the idle.
I'm also convinced that there isn't one magical tune out there for everyone to use. We all have to learn to tweak this thing but it'll never run as it does on the factory ECU. There are things that we can't use and the algorithms to make this thing run as it does must be extremely complex and specific.
If the DBW delete that Gerzand is working on only defeats traction and cruise control, I think that's the way to go. Then we could replace the existing TB with a unit that has the IACV and use the MS3 to control the idle.
I'm also convinced that there isn't one magical tune out there for everyone to use. We all have to learn to tweak this thing but it'll never run as it does on the factory ECU. There are things that we can't use and the algorithms to make this thing run as it does must be extremely complex and specific.
Last edited by KN_TL; 10-02-2012 at 08:26 AM.
10-02-2012, 08:52 AM
#202
Too late to edit...
I mean, think about it... for most of us turbo guys, we're going to need to spend upwards of $800 - $1200 at the tuners to make sure the car is tuned properly. If I gave someone $300-$400 for a base tune, I could STILL probably save a couple hundred bucks of dyno time. Half of that time is spent just trying to figure out either why things like VTEC aren't working, or why the car idles like shit. That's a VIABLE BUSINESS in itself just creating an honest base tune that works. We really don't need Hondata to do that for us. What we really need is someone that can organize it, collect deposits so that the work can actually get done, and then reap the benefits.
I mean, think about it... for most of us turbo guys, we're going to need to spend upwards of $800 - $1200 at the tuners to make sure the car is tuned properly. If I gave someone $300-$400 for a base tune, I could STILL probably save a couple hundred bucks of dyno time. Half of that time is spent just trying to figure out either why things like VTEC aren't working, or why the car idles like shit. That's a VIABLE BUSINESS in itself just creating an honest base tune that works. We really don't need Hondata to do that for us. What we really need is someone that can organize it, collect deposits so that the work can actually get done, and then reap the benefits.
10-02-2012, 10:33 AM
#203
My idle is about as close to stock as it gets and I would be happy to share it ( with bemeyer ) to help people get a more stable and refined tune. Provided some one can post how to extract the tune and send it out without it changing any ECU parameters. I am not sure how much help it will be for NA guys, but with the issue the turbo guys are having, it should be a help.
10-02-2012, 11:40 AM
#206
All motor
The list was to 'play along.' If even Hondata came out with something for the J swaps it would be a huge hit. I'm sure someone would be able to figure out how to wire for DBW. If not, then at least they would be making some coin on the swaps. Some who are thinking J swap look elsewhere simply because the fact is; there's no true tuning solution.
Obviously they must have a reason they're not putting the effort into the J. I just wish I knew what it was.
Obviously they must have a reason they're not putting the effort into the J. I just wish I knew what it was.
10-02-2012, 12:01 PM
#207
Burning Brakes
http://www.Hondata.com/J-series It's currently priced at $1,809.98
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justnspace (10-02-2012)
10-02-2012, 01:11 PM
#209
My idle is about as close to stock as it gets and I would be happy to share it ( with bemeyer ) to help people get a more stable and refined tune. Provided some one can post how to extract the tune and send it out without it changing any ECU parameters. I am not sure how much help it will be for NA guys, but with the issue the turbo guys are having, it should be a help.
click file, then save tune as. done
10-02-2012, 01:30 PM
#210
All motor
http://www.Hondata.com/J-series It's currently priced at $1,809.98
10-02-2012, 01:36 PM
#212
takin care of Business in
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^^^ guess you rubbed off on him 
10-02-2012, 01:41 PM
#213
Safety Car
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http://www.Hondata.com/J-series It's currently priced at $1,809.98
10-02-2012, 02:07 PM
#215
All motor
^ I give it an hour before your inbox is flooded with PMs. "Why you t00n s0 g00d?!"
Glad to hear you got it working well for your car. If it weren't so difficult to get working properly, I'd consider it for my Accord.....consider it...for my Accord...although our boy @ v9p is doin' the damn thing.
Glad to hear you got it working well for your car. If it weren't so difficult to get working properly, I'd consider it for my Accord.....consider it...for my Accord...although our boy @ v9p is doin' the damn thing.
10-02-2012, 02:53 PM
#216
I think that if we make this happen, it's going to be partly a collaborative effort with everyone running the MS3 currently. Everyone would need to document their current mods, the issues they're having, maybe get some video and data logs and then send them, along with their current tune to the person/shop doing the work. Then we could get a large enough sample size to know what works, what doesn't, and hopefully figure out where most of the issues lie and try to avoid them.
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justnspace (10-02-2012)
10-02-2012, 03:38 PM
#217
Is it ever possible to get the idle totally stable? Because we are still allowing the throttle to be controlled by the idle control circuit in the factory ECU, you're always going to have two independent brains doing what it thinks it should to keep things running as it should.
If the DBW delete that Gerzand is working on only defeats traction and cruise control, I think that's the way to go. Then we could replace the existing TB with a unit that has the IACV and use the MS3 to control the idle.
I'm also convinced that there isn't one magical tune out there for everyone to use. We all have to learn to tweak this thing but it'll never run as it does on the factory ECU. There are things that we can't use and the algorithms to make this thing run as it does must be extremely complex and specific.
If the DBW delete that Gerzand is working on only defeats traction and cruise control, I think that's the way to go. Then we could replace the existing TB with a unit that has the IACV and use the MS3 to control the idle.
I'm also convinced that there isn't one magical tune out there for everyone to use. We all have to learn to tweak this thing but it'll never run as it does on the factory ECU. There are things that we can't use and the algorithms to make this thing run as it does must be extremely complex and specific.
Since the MS3 has the ability to control IAC valves, I'm going to start researching what it would take to add an external valve to the J32. I would hope that if the MS3 can react fast enough, it wouldn't give the stock ECU enough time to attempt to counter any fluctuations in RPM. That would allow us to retain the VSA and cruise control (which I'm not willing to give up).
EDIT: By the way, if anyone has a spare J32 intake manifold laying around that they wouldn't mind donating for research purposes, let me know.
Last edited by bmeyer; 10-02-2012 at 03:43 PM.
10-02-2012, 05:43 PM
#218
I think that if we make this happen, it's going to be partly a collaborative effort with everyone running the MS3 currently. Everyone would need to document their current mods, the issues they're having, maybe get some video and data logs and then send them, along with their current tune to the person/shop doing the work. Then we could get a large enough sample size to know what works, what doesn't, and hopefully figure out where most of the issues lie and try to avoid them.
EDIT: Let me see what I can do for hosting space......
Last edited by KN_TL; 10-02-2012 at 05:47 PM.
10-02-2012, 07:24 PM
#219
I still have quite a bit of hosting space available yet. Let me see if I can get a domain setup for it this weekend.
10-03-2012, 12:58 PM
#221
Former Sponsor
I think that if we make this happen, it's going to be partly a collaborative effort with everyone running the MS3 currently. Everyone would need to document their current mods, the issues they're having, maybe get some video and data logs and then send them, along with their current tune to the person/shop doing the work. Then we could get a large enough sample size to know what works, what doesn't, and hopefully figure out where most of the issues lie and try to avoid them.
I will shoot you a email when I get a chance to brainstorm.
10-03-2012, 04:27 PM
#223
I could not agree more. I have "squirted" cars in the past and it has always been through the shared knowledge that allows members to continually improve upon the product. The whole Megasquirt premise is about DIY and open hardware. Plenty a people sold prebuilt hardware but it was always well documented which allowed the end user to make changes.
I will shoot you a email when I get a chance to brainstorm.
I will shoot you a email when I get a chance to brainstorm.
I do have a domain setup for the info. There's nothing actually there yet until I get some time to put some content together.
http://J-SeriesTech.com
EDIT: As a side note, I did get some equipment ordered up for the IAC. It won't be here for a week or two, but I'm determined to make some progress on it.
10-03-2012, 05:16 PM
#224
Thanks, Richie! I was hoping you would weigh in on this.
I do have a domain setup for the info. There's nothing actually there yet until I get some time to put some content together.
http://J-SeriesTech.com
EDIT: As a side note, I did get some equipment ordered up for the IAC. It won't be here for a week or two, but I'm determined to make some progress on it.
I do have a domain setup for the info. There's nothing actually there yet until I get some time to put some content together.
http://J-SeriesTech.com
EDIT: As a side note, I did get some equipment ordered up for the IAC. It won't be here for a week or two, but I'm determined to make some progress on it.
10-03-2012, 05:28 PM
#225
Well, the hope is to create a site that contains all of the tech info regarding the J-Series engines. I'm already planning on doing a write-up for building a J36, wiring diagrams for F/IC and MS3, MS3 tutorials, fuel return write-up, and hopefully some info about adding an external IAC valve, etc. Basically all of the info that was already there, but all in a secretive fashion (i.e. people trying to charge for it).
It'll be setup in a wiki style, but submissions will be made via a review process. We already have plenty of forums with all sorts of misinformation floating around. We just don't need another. Think of it as a "no bullshit way of getting to the technical info you need".
Maybe we can setup a section regarding MS3 tuning, but it needs some more thought.
It'll be setup in a wiki style, but submissions will be made via a review process. We already have plenty of forums with all sorts of misinformation floating around. We just don't need another. Think of it as a "no bullshit way of getting to the technical info you need".
Maybe we can setup a section regarding MS3 tuning, but it needs some more thought.
10-04-2012, 01:58 AM
#226
Well, the hope is to create a site that contains all of the tech info regarding the J-Series engines. I'm already planning on doing a write-up for building a J36, wiring diagrams for F/IC and MS3, MS3 tutorials, fuel return write-up, and hopefully some info about adding an external IAC valve, etc. Basically all of the info that was already there, but all in a secretive fashion (i.e. people trying to charge for it).
It'll be setup in a wiki style, but submissions will be made via a review process. We already have plenty of forums with all sorts of misinformation floating around. We just don't need another. Think of it as a "no bullshit way of getting to the technical info you need".
Maybe we can setup a section regarding MS3 tuning, but it needs some more thought.
It'll be setup in a wiki style, but submissions will be made via a review process. We already have plenty of forums with all sorts of misinformation floating around. We just don't need another. Think of it as a "no bullshit way of getting to the technical info you need".
Maybe we can setup a section regarding MS3 tuning, but it needs some more thought.
Ahhh I see....sounds like a great idea as long as people are willing to share.
I really have no problems with the ms3 other then the idle. I havent been able to find a tuner around my way that has a deep knowledge of tuner studio. If I did, i would have no problem bringing my car there for them to go over my tune and tweak it.
Since the MS3 has the ability to control IAC valves, I'm going to start researching what it would take to add an external valve to the J32. I would hope that if the MS3 can react fast enough, it wouldn't give the stock ECU enough time to attempt to counter any fluctuations in RPM. That would allow us to retain the VSA and cruise control (which I'm not willing to give up).
EDIT: By the way, if anyone has a spare J32 intake manifold laying around that they wouldn't mind donating for research purposes, let me know.
EDIT: By the way, if anyone has a spare J32 intake manifold laying around that they wouldn't mind donating for research purposes, let me know.
My cruise control doesnt work either. I thought that was b.c. rodney didnt do the wiring correctly when we swapped to the 6spd?
I also dont need to press the clutch to start the car. Is that normal for the TL as well?
10-04-2012, 08:13 AM
#228
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
If you guys need any help with the website, web design, or backend just shoot me a PM and I'd be glad to help.
10-04-2012, 08:36 AM
#229
I think that if we make this happen, it's going to be partly a collaborative effort with everyone running the MS3 currently. Everyone would need to document their current mods, the issues they're having, maybe get some video and data logs and then send them, along with their current tune to the person/shop doing the work. Then we could get a large enough sample size to know what works, what doesn't, and hopefully figure out where most of the issues lie and try to avoid them.
the only isue my car has shown is acceleration spike after hard boost. it's kind of cool actually, lol
10-04-2012, 09:34 AM
#230
I'd definitely like to have others contribute tech articles, but I don't suspect there are many others out there with really detailed info about these things (kind of the point of putting this site together in the first place).
My vsa is permantly disabled. I have no idea what would happen if the vsa tried to engage with over double the hp going through it. Idk, maybe nothing...but when I brought my car to dealership after the 6spd swap to have the immobilizer re-programmed, i brought it up to the master-tech and he said it was probably better to leave the vsa off at all times with that much power.
My cruise control doesnt work either. I thought that was b.c. rodney didnt do the wiring correctly when we swapped to the 6spd?
I also dont need to press the clutch to start the car. Is that normal for the TL as well?
My cruise control doesnt work either. I thought that was b.c. rodney didnt do the wiring correctly when we swapped to the 6spd?
I also dont need to press the clutch to start the car. Is that normal for the TL as well?
10-04-2012, 09:39 AM
#231
another thing you all need to keep in mind is that for some reason all these cars are behaving differently. I think it was KN_TL or IHC that said it first. So i'm not even sure how much good a base tune is even going to do, seeing how much fiddling it takes to get each one right.
Also, adding at least SOME ability to manipulate the idle with an IAC should help a bit. We'll find out.
10-04-2012, 10:17 AM
#232
As it sits now, Rodney never made any adjustments to any of these parameters. If you open up the generic MS3 tune, you'll see the exact same values for all of the startup parameters as are in the tunes being sent out with the ECU.
Also, adding at least SOME ability to manipulate the idle with an IAC should help a bit. We'll find out.
Also, adding at least SOME ability to manipulate the idle with an IAC should help a bit. We'll find out.
I'm very interested to see what you come up with a IAC. But I think we'll have to figure out how to fool the factory ECU into not tweaking the TB. I was thinking about this and I wonder if the factory IAC is also tweaking the air/fuel mixture and since it now has no control over it then it is over reacting at some points.
10-04-2012, 08:36 PM
#233
Former Sponsor
I have no interest in selling the Megasquirt III under the RV6 name. I would never have the time to support it. It would be best to release the diagrams and tunes to the public and have members supporting each other. I am more interested in supporting the community and having a solid set of base maps for my products.
There are many vendors that will sell you a standalone MSIII ECU in kit form or assembled. However the wiring, tune and mods to the MSIII need to be documented and public so that everyone is on the same page and can help trouble shoot. If there is a demand I might offer quality made hardware such as harnesses and daughter boards built to the public designs.
I still feel that a Flashpro option would be best. Although I doubt Hondata will ever pull through. It allows you to modify factory maps and not have to start from scratch. Honda spends big money in developing ECU software that will work under any conditions. With a factory ECU I can hop in my car when it is negative 20 or 120 outside at any elevation turn the key and my car will start.
This is very difficult to do with a standalone ECU. But not impossible it takes some serious dedication and willingness to learn. It is more tuning for reliability than power. People switching to a standalone ECU have to realize they will be giving up factory reliability for tuning abilities.
There are many vendors that will sell you a standalone MSIII ECU in kit form or assembled. However the wiring, tune and mods to the MSIII need to be documented and public so that everyone is on the same page and can help trouble shoot. If there is a demand I might offer quality made hardware such as harnesses and daughter boards built to the public designs.
I still feel that a Flashpro option would be best. Although I doubt Hondata will ever pull through. It allows you to modify factory maps and not have to start from scratch. Honda spends big money in developing ECU software that will work under any conditions. With a factory ECU I can hop in my car when it is negative 20 or 120 outside at any elevation turn the key and my car will start.
This is very difficult to do with a standalone ECU. But not impossible it takes some serious dedication and willingness to learn. It is more tuning for reliability than power. People switching to a standalone ECU have to realize they will be giving up factory reliability for tuning abilities.
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10-12-2012, 11:20 AM
#235
does anyone know if the current true standalone ECU's are all non-dbw?
I was watching a show about ESC and the tests they made were pretty amazing. If I were a company, I wouldn't sell anything that could possibly screw that up.
Also makes me rethink the conversion from dbw since I do most driving in non-crazed mode. It could come in handy for those situations that are out of your control.
I was watching a show about ESC and the tests they made were pretty amazing. If I were a company, I wouldn't sell anything that could possibly screw that up.
Also makes me rethink the conversion from dbw since I do most driving in non-crazed mode. It could come in handy for those situations that are out of your control.
10-12-2012, 01:31 PM
#236
almost everything ive read is all cable setups. i believe there was one older bmw that was dbw using the ms3
if you read the several threads on msextra.com regarding ms3 and dbw, you will see that there are no plans to incorporate dbw adjustments. it seems its mostly for safety concerns
the site admin and matt cramer both said no
if you read the several threads on msextra.com regarding ms3 and dbw, you will see that there are no plans to incorporate dbw adjustments. it seems its mostly for safety concerns
the site admin and matt cramer both said no
10-12-2012, 01:35 PM
#237
almost everything ive read is all cable setups. i believe there was one older bmw that was dbw using the ms3
if you read the several threads on msextra.com regarding ms3 and dbw, you will see that there are no plans to incorporate dbw adjustments. it seems its mostly for safety concerns
the site admin and matt cramer both said no
if you read the several threads on msextra.com regarding ms3 and dbw, you will see that there are no plans to incorporate dbw adjustments. it seems its mostly for safety concerns
the site admin and matt cramer both said no
10-13-2012, 07:53 PM
#238
...With a factory ECU I can hop in my car when it is negative 20 or 120 outside at any elevation turn the key and my car will start.
This is very difficult to do with a standalone ECU. But not impossible it takes some serious dedication and willingness to learn. It is more tuning for reliability than power. People switching to a standalone ECU have to realize they will be giving up factory reliability for tuning abilities.
This is very difficult to do with a standalone ECU. But not impossible it takes some serious dedication and willingness to learn. It is more tuning for reliability than power. People switching to a standalone ECU have to realize they will be giving up factory reliability for tuning abilities.
The MS3 has a warmup enrichment table, as well as awareness of (and similar control algorithm) to the factory ECU. What would make you think things like temperature compensation would be hard to do or require dedication? These are features of the MS3, which is an excellent EFI controller!
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gerzand (10-14-2012)
10-13-2012, 11:21 PM
#239
Former Sponsor
I'm not sure why you would say this. The MS3, even in a dual-ecu setup would be aware of things like the baro, map, ait, ect, and in a sensible installation, would have a wideband.
The MS3 has a warmup enrichment table, as well as awareness of (and similar control algorithm) to the factory ECU. What would make you think things like temperature compensation would be hard to do or require dedication? These are features of the MS3, which is an excellent EFI controller!
The MS3 has a warmup enrichment table, as well as awareness of (and similar control algorithm) to the factory ECU. What would make you think things like temperature compensation would be hard to do or require dedication? These are features of the MS3, which is an excellent EFI controller!
MS3 does support real time barometric correction however it is not build in. You have to add a second sensor and configure it in the software. I would highly recommend getting it. Everyone has to be on the same page if we want to work together.
10-14-2012, 04:28 PM
#240
Former Sponsor
I do not mean to be a downer. I just want to make sure everyone is well aware the MS is far from plug and play at this point. I do plan on picking one up and trying it out on my TL at some point this winter. I built a turboed 2.0L MX6 running MS2 back in college for a boost controller SR project. I might upgrade that one to MS3 and check out the differences.