That is a good question! I really haven't looked that close at them.

 

LOSE horsepower? i think you are mistaken. you will gain torque AND horsepower.

 

Dude the horsepower rating is lower on the MDX, Ridgeline and Odyssey. Only the RL has more HP. Displacement doesn't always mean more HP. You may gain Tq, but not be able to rev as high as the lower displacement motor, therefore not producing as much HP. The extra TQ will help out of the hole, but you will have to shift more often due to the lower revving. You really have no idea of how HP is calculated do you? If you did you would understand why you can loose HP but gain torque.

A real good example are diesel's, they produce gobs of TQ, but low horsepower, Its due to the fact that they only rev to 4-5 grand.

HP=(TQ*RPM)/5252

So any motor that can rev to 5252 will have the same amount of tq as HP. These #'s will always be equal at that point.

We will use a simple equation to demostrate this.

if you have a car that produces 200 ft/lbs and is able to do this at 7000 rpms you will get 266.5 hp.

Car b produces 225 ft/lbs but is only able to this at 6000 RPMs due to the added mass. You will only produce 257 hp.

The 3.5L does not have the same redline the 3.2L has. Why do you think the S2000 can produce the power it can. I doesn't produce anything near the 3.2L or the 3.5L, but the HP is right up there with it.

TQ is good, but for the cost of going through all the work to get the 3.5L to work in the car for the little extra power you will get in the TL, is just not worth it. It would be better to work with the motor or block that came in it. So before making a remark like you did, be sure to understand why I said what I said.

There is also more mass associated with the 3.5L, this will reduce RPM, by itself and before you try to talk about balancing, remember that this can be done to the 3.2 as well, which would allow for higher RPMs. But until there is a flash or a computer that will work with it, you are stuck having to use the stock ECU's.

 

i understand how HP is found, but i think you need to search a little more on the topic.

in regards to the 3.5 swap you will gain HP and TQ. if you do not believe me then search for user "typeR". he ran a 13.3 all motor in an auto. he also dynoed 257/hp/232 lb.ft

so before you tell people its not worth it and you will lose HP, you need to search for people that have done it, dynoed, and tracked it.

now granted not every car is the same, and if people dont know how to build a motor, it wont come o ut right. but the fact remains, and typeR is the proof. no need to explain physics and technical mumbo jumbo. his car ran a 13.3 all motor w/ the 3.5 swap.

 

also realize a few of the obvious:


new MDX:
compression: 10.0:1
redline: 6300

old MDX:
10.0:1
6200

New RL:
11.0:1
6800

new TL:
11.0:1
6800

so, taking your theory into practice, the 3.5 revs higher thus creating more hp.

 

First, you are talking about a CL, not a TL, second, look at blktl1 his dyno #'s are
Dyno- 264.7 whp 232.2 tq N/A, So Please tell me how going to the 3.5L is going to improve this??? The CL is lighter then the TL and with that added tq over the previous j32 it would help, but when the current j32 is already producing #'s like this with just a few bolt on's, why would you spend 5000+ to have the same results?? For you this is a great option, but for the 3rd gen TL, not a great option, you are better off working with the motor that comes in the car and tuning it. Or if all else fails, slap a SC on it and start to have fun!!

You are not comparing apples to apples here, I was giving the cold hard truth. Displacement doesn't always yield more power!!! And the technical mumbo jumbo backs that up.

Thats great that he has run a 13.3, I am happy for him. For the amount of $$$$ it would cost to get this to work properly in the 3rd gen, it would not give a return worthy of it as the one you are comparing has the same power as the one we have. Understood? So why trade 264 hp and 232 tq for a something that is producing 257 hp and 232 tq? The math doesn't add up. I guess its just me.

 

You really have no idea do you!!! You have to look at redline TQ, you cannot use max torque to do the calculation, you have to use the TQ it is producing at redline. Second, as previously stated, the RL block is quite a bit more expensive then a MDX block.

Third, how is 6300 higher then 6800??? Or hell, how is 6800 more then 6800? der der der!!!!

Yes we know the RL produces more power then the TL, but the MDX does not!!

Again the RL revs to the same RPM, while producing more TQ!! But are we talking about spending the 4000 on a RL block and then dropping lower compression pistons in that will lower the power rating of the motor as it is no longer 11:1 and this is where it gets its extra power from. So go back to your CL forum and talk about it there, as it is not a feasible idea at this time to do in the TL.

 

what i meant to say was the RL/TL rev higher.

why would you use lower compression pistons?

why does the CL and Accord applications make more hp and torque?

 

Lower compression would be used for those that want to go forced induction. The J32 in the TL is tuned differently then the newer accords and the CL uses the older j32 which didn't produce the same amount of power. There are applications where the 3.5 swap would work well, the CL being one of them, but the TL is not a great one to do this in.

One thing I forgot about with the RL, is the fact that it is SH-AWD. That would account for the extra cost of the block. The transfer case is more then likely located on the back of the block, similiar to the way the Prelude had the ATTS unit mounted to the back of the block.

The reason I feel that the 3.5 is not a good swap for the 3rd gen TL comes down to cost. By the time you have spent all the money to do this, you are not much further along then when you started. That money could have been used to go towards a SC and a Snow Kit, and would be faster and more reliable the the 3.5 swap. I won't even get into the nitemare that would go along with trying to tune a RL ECU for the TL as the TL ECU wouldn't cut it. There are a lot of factors that would go into all of the work involved with doing it.

 

well i think we are thinking 2 different things. i believe it may be possible to get the 3.5 on the TL stock black and everything, and only changing the rods/crank. i dont know this for sure either and i'm not saying i do, but this is the swap i would recommend. acura has a habit of using extremely similiar blocks. and yes i would agree, it does not pay at all to just buy the shortblock and try to install it. my thought was that it may be possible to gain 3.5 from just using crank/rods and possible pistons from either an RL/MDX.

if just a crank/rods could be used, you can probably use the same p istons as well, which should maintain the 11.0:1 compression for the TL and those who are boosted. but then there might be other who want higher boost and custom pistons could be bought.

i'm not trying to start a fight, but just exploring options.

 

^ good arguments btween you two (CleanCL and Black_05_TL_6SP). But besides having too much time in your hands swapping 3.2L out and putting a 3.5L in. I really don't see a point of doing this. So suppose you gain a bit of HP and some TQ. But it's not significant enough to let you feel it's fast! Think of the NSX, it's a fast car with 3.5L engine, but it's also extremely light. Suppose the guy successfully implanted the 3.5L engine in there and reduced the weight of the TL to (2650 lbs). By all means, it has absolutely nothing in there, no leather, no navi and non of that fancy stuff. You'll only have a body of a TL with a Odyssey engine..... now a NSX has about 290hp stock, so you're looking at what? roughly 290hp before you put any boost in it? In the end, I really don't think you can bring that car up to 450whp or 550whp. You might as well buy a Lexus IS300 and swap out the 5MT tranny and put in a Supra tranny for 6MT and upgrade it easily to 700rwhp.

It's a project that CAN BE FUN and be different, but you already know the result won't produce any significant gains.

 

Even with doing the 3.5L pistons from an RL, it would require for you to first bore the block out. The only thing I would worry about would be how thin the side walls are. This is why I previously mentioned the bore and then to close the open deck of the block. This is just a stroker kit at this point. The big problem is going to be the pistons and the heads themselves. If the pistons have a different clearance then TL one, it is possible for the valves to hit the pistons. You are also still limited to the valve size, with the extra displacement, you would need to increase fuel and air. And No CL, I wasn't trying to argue, I just wanted you to understand why this wasn't a great idea for the 3rd gen TL.

And Acuradriver, that was the point I was trying to get across. The gain from doing such a mod, would NOT yield enough gain to warrant it. You would be better off to spend the money on the Comptech SC and a bottle of N2O.

 

I would get it, Take it apart, balance everything, reinstall with arp Rod bolts. While the head is off, go with slightly larger valves open up the intake and exhaust ports a little, not too much so that you loose velocity, but enough to increase flow. If there was a way to tune the car, you can dyno adjust vtec, a/f, ve tables and all kinds of shit. If it were me, i would send the stock cam to comp cams, and have them do a custom grind, slightly more aggressive. Shit, this could be a killer setup if done right with the right tuning. All motor, about 300 at the wheels, high redline, nice tq.

 

This would be great, but since no one is able to tune the ECU yet, I guess that would make it a pain! I spent a lot of time building the previous car and time one the dyno.

I just can't wait for Hondata to at least get the flash out, that way we can get a little bit more out of it. The Honda motors are balanced pretty well, what would really help would be to lighten up all the internals ( Pistons, Rods, Crank), this would give a boost in itself. The thought of a more aggressive VTEC lob makes me drool, the VTEC they gave us is so weak. When VTEC would kick in on the Prelude, you knew it. It had stage2 cams in it.

I am hoping that the car will grow in the tuning area and more parts will be made for it, until then I guess we are on our own to figure out what we can do.

 

Man, if you can get a company to manufactur some forged internals, then wow. You could run a decent amount of boost on the motor and not worry. The only reason i say to balance is you dont know who put together the motor. If the mixed balanced rods and pistons with another set, then things can be a little off. I tell you this. On a stock motor with bolt ons, you can get a vafc to control vtec engagement and a/f. That is the closest to tuning possible. Get a more agressive version of the stock cam with a little higher lift and some valve springs and you will have a goo 30 more wheel horses and a nice amount of power under the curve. The only thing would be to make sure the stock springs can handle the extra lift or get new ones. You dont want any valve float going on.

 

Would a Hondata unit be programmable? I could hook it up to my carpc and possibly get some realtime management

 

i'm not entirely convinced you need to bore the cylinders. the only difference between the 3.2 and 3.5 is the stroke. the RL has overbore pistons. but my motor had 80,000 and we just honed the cylinder walls and everything was perfect and snug, no floating.

as for tuning, i'm sure an emanage can be used which would be more than enough.

as for valve clearance, that's something i bet someone could figure out based on numbers, not me though. lol. but i would bet on that a set of oem pistons would clear...

now, i would love to see someone rebuilt to the 3.5 w/ custom rods/pistons and increase boost. i think the gains would be substantial enough to warrant a rebuild, but that's for the extreme person looking for power.

and we shouldnt forget this is just a 4 door family sedan like previously mentioned.

 

the 01-03 CL curb weight is about 3470
and the TL is about 3580 w/o navi

not that much of a difference.

 

The Hondata system for the TL will be a flash only. To do what you are talking about it would require the K100 or a K-Pro to be installed. Of coarse these two products are for the k-series motors not the j32. But it would have to be something along that line for us to be able to program or have a hondata dealer program.

To cleanCL, the Emanage has been discussed, but with the way the ECU is in the TL, it won't work without running the risk of some damage. Some one mentioned that the ECU does not contain a tack signal coming in that the emanage would need to operate. At this point, for any real tuning, the J32 is on hold. Until Hondata is able to find a way to do programming and not just a flash, we will have to wait.

 

WTF is funny along with your point?
Nobody posted here since 7/2/06 until yeasterday.

 

has anyone looked into the emanage ultimate. if i ever do go w/ a major tune itd probably be that, i like the fact that you can push out the redline and shift points w/ the ultimate.

 

Black_05_TL_6SP you're DEAD WRONG regarding 3.5L swap on this TL.

There is a huge difference between the entire powerband on 3.5L vs. 3.2L as seen on TypeR CL-S. The stroke which is 93mm vs. 86mm we're talking about

First, all you do is swapping the block only while keeping stock heads/manifold and stock ECU/injectors will work just fine. This NEW block (as seen on page 1) is already assembled and I think still for sale. The cost is around $1500 + shipping. That's it. The swap will cost between 1000-1500, so lets say the whole thing going to run you $3K which is less than supercharger cost. Plus add the SC installation. With 3.5L you keep your car NA which won't require as much maintenance and reliability issues the SC does. Just add bolt-ons on it and this 3.5L TL will fly. You might add Apexi SAFC II to tune the fuel curve and that's it, not much needed more. If you really want to go crazy e-manage Ultimate might be used with ability to increase timing, control injectors, etc. but someone has to try it first on this car.


02AV6 would be the best guy to talk to regarding swaps as his detailed info is often used on this forum, but I'll try my best based on what I learned from him.

Getting just crank+rods means you need to pay a special attention and hone you existing block which is a hassle and require more investment in labor, etc.. Much better buy this NEW MDX block with already installed CL-S pistons which has lower compression (10.5) vs TL (11). The valves won't have any issues as CL-S valves and TL valves have same diameter so those CL-S pistons are perfect. Everything will bolt right up and you'll be a happy camper.

This is a very simple mod (pull the motor, unbolt the stock block, install the new one). Plus you'd always have your stock block (just in case).

 

Also, even hardcore auto TL supercharger guys can implement this too as THIS specific block (see pic on p.1) has lower 10.5 vs. 11:1 stock compression. SAFETY + boost increase (assuming needed tuning).

 

Ryan, did you find out if our cars had Nikasil plated cylinders. We need to find that out before we start to plan any bore. Forged Pistons might work, with different rings right? But they will be loose. Like you said tranny first.

 

Do you guys have any specs for the OEM part for both motors? Things like:

Deck height for both blocks
Pin height for both sets of pistons
Rod length for both motors
Combustion chamber cc volume
Piston dish volume

There are so many variables. If you put a 3.5 rotating assembly in the 3.2 block, use the 3.2 heads, you could end up with a super high CR because you don't know if Honda changed the combustion chamber size in the heads or the dish in the pistons.... What about deck height. You could have the pistons popping up too far...... And so on and so on.

Another quetion I have is that I saw some people posting you have to bore the 3.2 for the 3.5 pistons. Why is this if they have the same bore diameter?

The stroker motor with all else being equal will produce more torque but with the same breathing characteristics of the stock heads, cam, etc, hp won't be increased that much. I much prefer getting the extra displacemet from a bigger bore if possible but the stroker is much easier and cheaper.

 

There are a lot of variables. I know the 99-03 j motors could swap out to the j35 and keep the heads off the j32a2. I dont know the specs for the new motors though. All i know is that this swap isnt really a peak power mod, it will give a wider/fatter tq curve and increase power under the curve.

 

precisely. and like i said, no need to bore. its only the stroke that is changed.

 

would a j35a5 block with cl-s piston bolt up and be a simple swap with our 3rd get automatic TL?

 

pauter makes rods and cp makes pistons, i know, i have them.


the bore on a 3.5 and 3.2 are the same, 89mm . for the 3rd gen tl, the rl crank is needed, has to do with the lenght of the crank, the rl crank won't work in the earlier 3.5-3.2. complicated to explain\, but i know. the rl pistons won't have a clerance issue with whatever heads you use.



you have no idea what your talking about.

 

Alright dickhead, pick my post apart. Show me what I don't know. No shit, the rl crank is needed, it couldn't be because that's where you get the extra stroke from captn obvious.

 

your on the right track but doesn't make much of a difference on this kind of swap, and oh, by the way,relax, I like to rile people up from time to time, it's been boring on here lately.

 

LOL. Sorry, lost my job last month. It's getting a little boring around here.

I just wanted specs since it seems like no one has tried the 3.5 rotating assy in the 3.2 block. I like for other people to do the R&D for me, just wanted to find out for sure what components would work. I figured assuming the deck heights were the same and the 3.5 pistons use a larger dish it "should" be a pretty straight forward assembly. I've done a lot of racing but have never looked into the Honda world.

 

Sorry to hear of that, hope the job situation changes for you soon.

as for some of the points you mentioned on deck height. I have not measured the 3rd gen block, but have done a little comparision for you guys. One way to see if it's close is to compare the timing belt. It's not an exact science, but can give clues as to the what will work and what will not.

The timing belt is the same for the 04 and up TL and 05 and up RL. The timing gears are the same between the RL and TL. Belt is actually the same for the earlier 3.2 CL except it's narrower, 20mm vs. 26mm, the length is the same.

The narrower timing gears account for the approx 1/2'' shortness of the 05-06 RL crankshaft versus the 01-02 mdx crankshaft and 2000-2004 honda Odyssey. The RL crank will not work in the earlier 01-03 J series block without some serious modifications. Thats another reason the RL cams won't work in the 01-03 3.2, they are also slighty shorter.

The 05 and up RL crankshaft is a work of art, much beefier than the earlier 3.5 cranks, and the price is almost double that of the earlier 3.5 cranks. I should know because I have one of those cranks that I thought would work in my 3.2 and a set of those RL cams that make useful overkill paper weights. The RL crank fits perfectly into my block, just the front of the crank that holds the gears and pully won't support my gears or pulley. I've recently ordered the correct crankshaft and when it comes in, i'll post a picture of the difference between them if anyones interested.

You 3rd gen guys are in a much better position than the 2nd gen when it comes to taking advantage of newer technology honda puts in the RL. Most of those parts are interchangable.

 

This has me thinking. I might take this on but before I make my decision I am going to wait on the possibility of 07 type s parts.

 

The 3.2 block cylinders can be bored. Honda offers 0.25mm oversized pistons for a whopping $101 each with piston pins and locks. Thats $600 for 0.25mm overbore compared to $35.90 each or $215 for a set of standard bore. Why would you bother with 3.5 pistons. To have a set of JE SRP custom made to whatever compression ratio, pin height, valve relief size, ring land height, etc. etc.. would only cost you around $400-500 and you would have a better forged piston that would handle all that you can throw at it. I dont know why everyone thinks that replacing honda parts with other honda parts makes the new parts invincible. To have a set of rods and pistons made for the 3.2l would greatly outweigh the time and effort of using stock parts. Honda crankshafts are almost industructable and more often their blocks fail on open water jacketed blocks like ours. Would adding more boost make more power if we could handle it? Yeah but look at the thermal efficiency of the eaton m62 at 10 psi compared to 5 psi http://www.automotive.eaton.com/prod...argers/M62.asp hmmm 100 degrees at 5 psi and 12000 rpm compared to 170 degrees at 10 psi and 12000 rpm. Where that intercooler now cause you need it. Who here has tuned a 3rd gen? No one thats right. We can all what for hondata.........


Oh yeah havent heard any news yet. We can also buy our stage six clutch too for our car. Oh wait no one is making it are they. No news about anyone making one huh, thats right they cant figure out how to replace the self adjusting pressure plate. Great we can have a six puck disc and only be able to clamp it like it was stock. Hey who makes axles again? 3600 lbs is alot to get moving from a stand still. My point is there is a lot of useless bickering and arguments on here and no information to support anyones opinions. No one bought there tl to make it a race car. I bought mine with the intentions of putting the cat back and supercharger on it and being satsfied. I am. For a LUXURY FAMILY car this thing moves. Enjoy what you have. If you want to improve on it go right ahead. To argue a point that hasnt been proven or attempted is like a one legged man in an ass kicking contest.

 

Anyone else thinking of doing this since the Type S is coming out?

 

]

with ryan, this is a luxury family sedan, and it moves fast, it wasn't made to be a racecar.

 

I will look into it once the Type-S come out. In the mean time I would probably do the Dr.Evil tranny after the supercharger and pro cat.