**Official 3G Turbo TL Thread**
01-18-2007, 04:37 PM
#201
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I've been talking with my peers and have generated some excitement and interest with regards to making a production TL turbo kit. If it gets off the ground, there will be a lot of work ahead.
I need a show of hands of the people that would seriously be interested in a dependable, well built, easy to install(as possible) and safe(all else considered) turboed TL. I need to see who is really serious so I can get an idea of what the market is for us to do this and it be affordable enough/worth it to do.
As you know this is in the infant stages so anything can happen. I only hope that you guys see what I'm trying to do. Please don't be afraid to expand your knowledge in this field.....ask questions if you don't understand something.
I am going to start a new thread specifically for this project.
Let the learning(we are all learning as we go) begin
CJ
I need a show of hands of the people that would seriously be interested in a dependable, well built, easy to install(as possible) and safe(all else considered) turboed TL. I need to see who is really serious so I can get an idea of what the market is for us to do this and it be affordable enough/worth it to do.
As you know this is in the infant stages so anything can happen. I only hope that you guys see what I'm trying to do. Please don't be afraid to expand your knowledge in this field.....ask questions if you don't understand something.
I am going to start a new thread specifically for this project.
Let the learning(we are all learning as we go) begin
CJ
01-18-2007, 08:17 PM
#202
OOOOOHHHHHH
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Originally Posted by TeamXRSX
I've been talking with my peers and have generated some excitement and interest with regards to making a production TL turbo kit. If it gets off the ground, there will be a lot of work ahead.
I need a show of hands of the people that would seriously be interested in a dependable, well built, easy to install(as possible) and safe(all else considered) turboed TL. I need to see who is really serious so I can get an idea of what the market is for us to do this and it be affordable enough/worth it to do.
As you know this is in the infant stages so anything can happen. I only hope that you guys see what I'm trying to do. Please don't be afraid to expand your knowledge in this field.....ask questions if you don't understand something.
I am going to start a new thread specifically for this project.
Let the learning(we are all learning as we go) begin
CJ
I need a show of hands of the people that would seriously be interested in a dependable, well built, easy to install(as possible) and safe(all else considered) turboed TL. I need to see who is really serious so I can get an idea of what the market is for us to do this and it be affordable enough/worth it to do.
As you know this is in the infant stages so anything can happen. I only hope that you guys see what I'm trying to do. Please don't be afraid to expand your knowledge in this field.....ask questions if you don't understand something.
I am going to start a new thread specifically for this project.
Let the learning(we are all learning as we go) begin
CJ
01-19-2007, 08:26 PM
#204
Originally Posted by TeamXRSX
I appreciate the pics regarding tuboed J32's! I understand your train of thought, but you must realize a few things. First of all, you'd be surprised what little it takes to destroy a turboed, high static compression, reciprocated, internal combustion engine. A good detonation event from running too lean or a decent pre-ignition event from over advanced ignition timing is all it takes. You must understand what a piggyback is doing EXACTLY to understand my school of thought. My training is extensive and internal combustion engine science is always the same, no matter what engine, no matter what setup...the science never changes. A AFC map clamp(piggyback is the layman's term for it) is not a good thing. If you don't know exactly what that is and what it does, I will be more than happy to explain.
About the fuel injectors. If you are using a boost sensitive 1:1 fpr, you can "stretch" a injectors head room by upping the static fuel pressure 1psi per every pound of boost. This counteracts the manifold pressure pushing back up on the opening of the injector as the manifold pressure rises from the boost. This is how we stretch smaller injectors out to keep duty cycle lower but still deliver enough fuel. What I was stating was a simple observation that a fpr was not listed in his parts list, which would mean that setup was probably using the stock returnless fuel system, high impedance rc injectors and no aftermarket boost sensitive 1:1 fpr or aftermarket fuel pump. This would mean that in order for the fuel system to be able to deliver enough fuel the injector size would typically need to be bigger than 550cc to counter act the static fuel pressure in the fuel rail in boost at anything over about 5-8 psi.
CJ
About the fuel injectors. If you are using a boost sensitive 1:1 fpr, you can "stretch" a injectors head room by upping the static fuel pressure 1psi per every pound of boost. This counteracts the manifold pressure pushing back up on the opening of the injector as the manifold pressure rises from the boost. This is how we stretch smaller injectors out to keep duty cycle lower but still deliver enough fuel. What I was stating was a simple observation that a fpr was not listed in his parts list, which would mean that setup was probably using the stock returnless fuel system, high impedance rc injectors and no aftermarket boost sensitive 1:1 fpr or aftermarket fuel pump. This would mean that in order for the fuel system to be able to deliver enough fuel the injector size would typically need to be bigger than 550cc to counter act the static fuel pressure in the fuel rail in boost at anything over about 5-8 psi.
CJ
I actually have a pretty good idea of the operating system on this car. That elevated CL is mine. It has the walboro 255 pump, idle fuel pressure is 40 and at 10psi it's between 58-60psi and this is with RC440's and makes 464whp. Injector duty is 65-70%, afr is 11.6-8 and I pull 6* timing up top. The idle is the same as stock, the idle afr however is a little on the rich side, 14.2afr rather than stoich, I chalk that up to the 440's.
As for det, it's a constant fear as you hope nothing hic-ups in the emanage, then again, you hope nothing hic-ups with other ecu's as well. so far so good, no hic-ups, it's a little fickle, but gets the job done. A stand alone can be installed while at the same time the stock ecu controls some of the creature comforts, I think so anyway.
good luck with your endeavor.
01-19-2007, 09:00 PM
#205
Terminex
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TL for Gen 3
I am very interested in one.
I bought the TL a year ago when I gave my Grand Prix GTP to my brother. I love my Tl, but I REALLY miss the power from my GTP. I spent a LOT of time (and money of course:-) modding my GTP for performance, while retaining the stock exterior. I really would like to be able to do the same with the TL.
I am interested in the Turbo as I do not think the power / performance ration on the CTSC is worth it.
I bought the TL a year ago when I gave my Grand Prix GTP to my brother. I love my Tl, but I REALLY miss the power from my GTP. I spent a LOT of time (and money of course:-) modding my GTP for performance, while retaining the stock exterior. I really would like to be able to do the same with the TL.
I am interested in the Turbo as I do not think the power / performance ration on the CTSC is worth it.
01-23-2007, 02:55 PM
#206
Cruisin'
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I've been watching this thread for months now, and still to see little to no progress (beginning phases last forever) If you guys still want, I can get in touch with the guys who made the Turbo kit for us over in Contour.org. It was selling for 4-5k so expect that range....also expect extreme quality and no corners to be cut. There are guys on that board that took contours (NA are 15.5 Quarter mile runs, and come at like 220 HP at the crank) and with this help of their turbos got them all the way to 400+ HP (At 13 PSI) and are running 13.2 quarter miles, on a foward wheel drive car....SAFELY. Its true quality. http://videos.streetfire.net/video/f...34000bd855.htm
01-24-2007, 06:19 PM
#208
Whats up guys, I am the guy at ---.net that has the turboed 7gen that has been mentioned a couple of times. I just thought I would share some of the stuff I learned on the way.
1st... I did upgrade my fuel pump to a walbro 255lph. that was good, but not good enough. to do it right, you will need to change the fuel system to a return system w/a fpr inline.
2nd... Another note about the fuel system is that the fuel rails because its returnless may not be able to handle the flow. Since the rear bank fuel rail gets fed first it will get more fuel than the front. The front fuel rail is fed off of the rear bank. Even increasing fuel pressure will not solve this problem because it is a problem of flow. To correct this you'll need to y off the fuel rails so that they both get fed at the same time, but this might also starve the injectors farthest away from the supply. So you would have to have a return system and that should be the end of it.
3rd... just to give you guys a heads up. the new TL/AV6 both share the same injectors which currently nobody makes them(aftermarket) The RC's that I had were machined to fit the fuel rails and the intake runners perfectly. Just more time the car will be down, unless you can have extra parts sent out to be fitted. Any machine/engine shop should be able to do this.
I also did a 3.5 swap, I did all of the building myself and I have a really good understanding of the systems in place. If you guys have any questions about anything hit me up, I will see if I can help.
Logan
1st... I did upgrade my fuel pump to a walbro 255lph. that was good, but not good enough. to do it right, you will need to change the fuel system to a return system w/a fpr inline.
2nd... Another note about the fuel system is that the fuel rails because its returnless may not be able to handle the flow. Since the rear bank fuel rail gets fed first it will get more fuel than the front. The front fuel rail is fed off of the rear bank. Even increasing fuel pressure will not solve this problem because it is a problem of flow. To correct this you'll need to y off the fuel rails so that they both get fed at the same time, but this might also starve the injectors farthest away from the supply. So you would have to have a return system and that should be the end of it.
3rd... just to give you guys a heads up. the new TL/AV6 both share the same injectors which currently nobody makes them(aftermarket) The RC's that I had were machined to fit the fuel rails and the intake runners perfectly. Just more time the car will be down, unless you can have extra parts sent out to be fitted. Any machine/engine shop should be able to do this.
I also did a 3.5 swap, I did all of the building myself and I have a really good understanding of the systems in place. If you guys have any questions about anything hit me up, I will see if I can help.
Logan
01-29-2007, 02:58 PM
#211
Originally Posted by Meek32v6
Good stuff!..thanx man. Is there any chance that you have the specs on your exhaust piping?
Or did the shop do all the machine work on that?
Or did the shop do all the machine work on that?
No problem, I am getting rid of my car soon and will be parting everything out. What kind of specs are you looking for for the exhaust manifold? Honestly, since I am going to part out, I can look into seeing if a welder can setup a jig for the manifold and intercooler piping.
I can honestly say the TL/AV6 are sooo... similiar. My kit will fit the TL, the modification will be needed to fit the intercooler. Everything else should be fine.
Originally Posted by JOES05tl
longonzojls, why you selling your car on ebay? what happened to it? What type of engine management were you running? n02?
I know everyone is trying to get this done for the TL, and If I can be any help, I would be glad to lend a hand.
Logan
BTW... Engine management is Greddy E-manage Ultimate
01-30-2007, 03:56 PM
#212
'06 750Li Sapphire/Creme
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Originally Posted by Ocelot
I've been watching this thread for months now, and still to see little to no progress (beginning phases last forever) If you guys still want, I can get in touch with the guys who made the Turbo kit for us over in Contour.org. It was selling for 4-5k so expect that range....also expect extreme quality and no corners to be cut. There are guys on that board that took contours (NA are 15.5 Quarter mile runs, and come at like 220 HP at the crank) and with this help of their turbos got them all the way to 400+ HP (At 13 PSI) and are running 13.2 quarter miles, on a foward wheel drive car....SAFELY. Its true quality. http://videos.streetfire.net/video/f...34000bd855.htm
Oh, if only it were really that simple....Unfortunately the only thing you did not address here is the PRIMARY obsticle.... Specifially, the "Engine management software" for this particular car (and no, as I understand it the Honda 7th gen stuff is not the same...unfortunately). Until that's available all the hardware in the world won't be of any use at all ...
01-30-2007, 05:53 PM
#213
Cruisin'
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True enough, we had the biggest problem with engine management to keep the car from detonation under WOT. As I said before, its all about getting the power to the ground safely. These guys don't just create kits, and sell them. The guys at ADC run these cars under typical conditions, tune them, create the necessary software if needed...they do it all. Honestly, what are you options. Worst case, 20 or so of you guys get together and I organise it to see if ADC will make the turbo kit, they say that they aren't capable of doing it and we move on, to someone who will. Its much better than whats going on now which is unorganized, not structured, and doesn't have the eye of someone who CAN actually put it together.
Seriously though, its up to you guys, with all the tuning software out there I'm sure it MORE than possible to get this idea off the ground and running, theres no use tripping over hurdles before you get to them...
Seriously though, its up to you guys, with all the tuning software out there I'm sure it MORE than possible to get this idea off the ground and running, theres no use tripping over hurdles before you get to them...
01-30-2007, 06:50 PM
#214
Originally Posted by Ocelot
Its much better than whats going on now which is unorganized, not structured, and doesn't have the eye of someone who CAN actually put it together.
to you for trying but, I think teamrsx is definitely qualified and seems to be more than interested in pulling all this together for the 3gens. Give respect where its due.
Originally Posted by ndabunka
Oh, if only it were really that simple....Unfortunately the only thing you did not address here is the PRIMARY obsticle.... Specifially, the "Engine management software" for this particular car (and no, as I understand it the Honda 7th gen stuff is not the same...unfortunately). Until that's available all the hardware in the world won't be of any use at all ...
I didn't come on this site to spread a bunch of B.S. I have done my research and I know a lot about both engines. honestly, I stand to gain nothing from this and you stand to gain whatever I can offer to help. I guess I thought I'd be helping people that were trying to do what I have already done to an engine that Is almost Identical with the exception of the bore of the block.
If you think the engine management is such a big issue, then an easy fix is go with a standalone. I know your saying ohh... thats too expensive, but you drive a 36k dollar car new. If your going to mess with a turbo you should not have a problem laying down a little more cash for the right equipment.
L
01-31-2007, 05:17 PM
#215
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Originally Posted by LOGONZOJLS
Listen, to you for trying but, I think teamrsx is definitely qualified and seems to be more than interested in pulling all this together for the 3gens. Give respect where its due.
to you for trying but, I think teamrsx is definitely qualified and seems to be more than interested in pulling all this together for the 3gens. Give respect where its due.
01-31-2007, 05:38 PM
#216
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Originally Posted by Ocelot
I'm sorry, I meant absolutely not disrespect to teamrsx. Honestly. I'll back off, I didn't know they were actually following through with it. Good luck with it
There are many hurdles to jump still regarding a tunable ECU from hondata. Please dont call them up or bug them in any way. Like its been stated, once the product is done everybody will know about it(regarding reflashable ECUs..ect.). This goes for everybody.....N/A, Supercharged, and especially turbo inquiries.
Once we get the prototype finished, we will have a couple of options to test and tune from Hondata......thats all i can say right now.
Again, please dont bug Hondata.......just watch the forums. When something happens and is ready for release, everybody will know......
i will be keeping people updated from my thread
CJ
01-31-2007, 09:22 PM
#217
'06 750Li Sapphire/Creme
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Originally Posted by LOGONZOJLS
...
I'm sorry, If you THINK that 7gen AV6 does not share a ishload of parts and similarities, your entitled to your opinion which is from what I understand completely based off hearsay Unless you know somebody else that has compared as many AV6 and TL parts as I have. I have been there first hand and I have disassembled and rebuilt many things from the J32a3 and J30a4, I am not saying EVERYTHING is the same, but damn everything from a mchanical aspect is really close...lol, unfortunetly.
I didn't come on this site to spread a bunch of B.S. I have done my research and I know a lot about both engines. honestly, I stand to gain nothing from this and you stand to gain whatever I can offer to help. I guess I thought I'd be helping people that were trying to do what I have already done to an engine that Is almost Identical with the exception of the bore of the block.
If you think the engine management is such a big issue, then an easy fix is go with a standalone. I know your saying ohh... thats too expensive, but you drive a 36k dollar car new. If your going to mess with a turbo you should not have a problem laying down a little more cash for the right equipment.
L
I'm sorry, If you THINK that 7gen AV6 does not share a ishload of parts and similarities, your entitled to your opinion which is from what I understand completely based off hearsay Unless you know somebody else that has compared as many AV6 and TL parts as I have. I have been there first hand and I have disassembled and rebuilt many things from the J32a3 and J30a4, I am not saying EVERYTHING is the same, but damn everything from a mchanical aspect is really close...lol, unfortunetly.
I didn't come on this site to spread a bunch of B.S. I have done my research and I know a lot about both engines. honestly, I stand to gain nothing from this and you stand to gain whatever I can offer to help. I guess I thought I'd be helping people that were trying to do what I have already done to an engine that Is almost Identical with the exception of the bore of the block.
If you think the engine management is such a big issue, then an easy fix is go with a standalone. I know your saying ohh... thats too expensive, but you drive a 36k dollar car new. If your going to mess with a turbo you should not have a problem laying down a little more cash for the right equipment.
L
02-01-2007, 06:47 PM
#218
Cruisin'
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Yeah see I figured the engine management would be the hardest part. Simplier systems would be possible to let the engine relearn what it needs in order to run safely, (ECU piggybackss, or sometimes just clear it by unplugging the battery) but with such a complicated system its looking to be such a pain. I have a buddy here, who works very heavily in tuning cars, and basically what he's explaining to me is that in order to get the engine management to work properly in this car, you'd have to build the turbo first, then create the ECU changes in order to ensure safety. Problem being, who will drop that much money in order to build this, then tune it for possibly MONTHS, to get it perfect. We're seeing the problems Hondata is having with the reflash, imagine coming up with something capable of holding in all that HP and getting it to the wheels safely. Its a tough battle you guys at TeamRSX have in front of you. Which sucks because the turbo system itself looks to be pretty str8 foward with everything besides the intercooler mounting, the problem is gonna be getting the car to function with all that added HP. GOOD LUCK.
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