While 'roll your own' grounding kits have been implied in several posts, I never found any completely documented. So I put one together and documented it on the Instructables website. Here's a link: Acura TL Engine Grounding for $20

Note: this does NOT include any "voltage stabilization" circuitry. If I determine an effective DIY solution for these, I'll document them as well.

Steve

 

Looks legit

 

i wonder if this would actually work...

 

Its the same principal as grounding kits.

 

did it really make a difference on your car after the "grounding"?

 

does it work? if so hmmmm i might get one

 

Interesting BUT- that method is only going halfway~
Proper grounding set- which you can make yourself with the same wires shown, but each open end goes to 1 metal plate with 4 holes drilled in it for the wires-
that plate then attaches directly to the body.

The idea is to isolate and ground each part to the car, not route it all back to the battery, which still relies on a small connection to something for ground.
So you have not increased anything, just added wires and removed some critical bolts like the TB connection! possible for leaks to occur
Its good to run a secondary ground to body if the primary goes to the engien block.
Look around and many cars have a metal lead from exhaust manifold bolt to body for ground.
Check the commercially available units and get some ideas for your diy project

Do it right and it will help the sensor laden TL

 

No grounds were removed and at the end of the day all of the electrons must flow back to either the alternator or the battery. Essentially what I created was a buss bar that runs between the car's body and battery. Actually, electrically, it extends from the driver's side of the engine bay to the passenger side of the engine bay, 'grounded' on both ends with the battery (negative terminal), throttle body, engine, and alternator, 'tapped' off of it.

The throttle body bolt was not (permanently) removed.

As far as an electrical difference between the daisy chain method I used vs. a hub and spoke configuration, I'll let the Electrical Engineers argue that one. I'm not an EE, but to my understanding, there's no electrical difference.

As far as the questions on "did it work?" and "did it make a difference?" - not that I can tell. "Maybe", "possibly" a slight difference - but for $20, it was too easy to NOT try.

Steve

 

when you remove 1 bolt in a set of 4, that are set to 16 foot lbs- you do run the risk of a leaking gasket after the bolt is reinstalled
I am a mechanic of many years- we run extensive grounds on the race car, and they do NOT all feed to the alt or battery

Take a look at thread with install of the 100 dollar kit and see where they run

 

can't argue with that I actually googled and found your instructibles page and wanted to try it myself as well.

 

Btw, Steve, not to take the topic off topic but I noticed in your sig that your HFL is down - I had the same issue.

I recommend talking to the dealer nicely and trying to get it goodwilled since it's a problematic unit. I was able to get mine "goodwilled" after agreeing to do the 45000 mile check up ($400) which was worth it since the HFL unit costs $600 (ouch).

 

Thanks for the tip. I will give that a go when I get the power steering hose recall addressed. Worth a shot, "nothing ventured, nothing gained" - kind of like the $20 grounding kit

Steve

 

I don't disagree that the $100+ kits use a hub and spoke topology - but I'd need some convincing that this is electrically different than the daisy chain setup. Plus - if you consider the plate/'hub' where all the wires/'spokes' terminate as the 'bus' and the wires to the individual locations as 'taps', then it would be electrically modeled (DC model not AC) the same. Please - if there are any EEs reading this, correct me if I'm wrong, dead wrong, off-base or otherwise have a rectal/cranial inversion.

I don't disagree with the possibility of a vacuum leak at the throttle body either due to removal/replacement of the bolt, but since I didn't break the 'bond' between the manifold, gasket and TB, I'd be willing to bet lunch at McDonald's that I've not induced a leak.

Regardless, thanks for the opinions. All opinions are valuable when considered and used to advance knowledge.

I'd appreciate any additional feedback from people with real world experience and knowledge.

Thanks!

Steve

 

I've been doing a little research on grounding kits so this is definitely a helpful resource. I couldn't justify spending too much money on some wires but then again, I spent $200+ for a metal tube. Looking forward to some reviews on this.

 

Ok the chance of breaking the seal on the TB is minimal, but possible. There are better places to ground IMO
Your claim is everythign goes back to the battery for ground is off though
The battery NEG cable goes to the car, usually somewhere like a main transmission to engine bolt as an example
The end of the system is not the battery- so running everything to it- just loads its ground wire,--instead of sharing the load across several points to give MORE contact points and better ground.
Thats my understanding of how it works, and when you look at the installed or even packaged units you see what the intention is.
More ground points- and clean ones- are better!!
They help sensor signals and stereos and who knows what, should give slightly better engine performance too.
Will know when I make my knock-off garage version of the pro kits with a main neg terminal plate point

 

Cool, keep us posted on your DIY version.

As far as the current "not returning to the battery" - it either has to go there or the alternator ground. A complete circuit has current flowing from a voltage/current 'source' which is either the alternator or the battery. You cannot break the circuit at either point and have it pass current. If electrons flow out of the alternator at the + terminal, replacement ones have to flow in from the - terminal. Same for the battery. Just to twist your mind, and it's irrelevant to this discussion but might help you on Jeopardy, the current (electrons) really flow from the - terminal to the +.

I think we all know that cars can run with battery disconnected (at least "old timey" ones can ;-). That's because the alternator provides the current needed. However if the load exceeds the capability of the alternator to supply current, I believe the total voltage will sag (drop). I *think* the alternator will overheat in this situation. With a (large enough) battery in parallel with the alternator, it too can supply current in excess of what the alternator can provide. However current supply from a battery is not "instant" (although you'd think it was) due to the internal resistance of the battery to flowing current. That's why people with the "thumpa-thumpa" subwoofers and amplifiers use a large capacitor mounted very close to the amp. When a honking big bass note is required (which causes the amplifier to draw a large amount of current) the capacitor (which has a much lower internal resistance than the battery) can deliver the 5 bazillion amps of current in a microsecond - something the battery cannot do. The battery can then leisurely recharge the capacitor. Please note that the underlined portions are an exaggeration - I don't actually know what the current demand is for a subwoofer amplifier in this case.

So what happens when we have two current sources in our circuit (the alternator and the battery)? Which supplies the current? Well, I'm not positive, but I'm about 99.99% sure, assuming that all connections are 'perfect' (0 ohms resistance) that the majority of the load would be taken by the alternator up to its capacity. Why? Because the voltage output of the alternator is greater than 12v - like 13.8v IIRC. So I *think* that the alternator would supply load until it was overloaded to the point where it's output dropped to 12v - then current would start flowing from the battery (battery discharging). When that situation was resolved, the alternator would then resume its higher voltage output and recharge the battery along with supplying the rest of the electrical load.

So, again assuming my layman's understanding is correct (again, you lurking Electrical Engineers prove me out), during normal engine running operation (not during starting), the vast majority of the current must return to the alternator - and some to the battery when it's discharging or charging.

So, I *think* the ideal location for the 'hub' to home all the individual grounding wires to would be at the alternator. IMHO, my daisychain setup effectively does that - assuming that my additional connections are more electrically efficient (less resistance) than having the current through the engine block, brackets, etc. to reach the alternator.

I hope I haven't made anyone's eyes glaze over. Responses are welcome!

Steve

 

You should ground to the car not the battery. The battery is NOT the ground for the car. The car is the ground for the battery. The better grounds you have from electrical sources to the chassis the better. Running it back to the battery not only makes the grounds longer but is a waste. Good cable is important for grounds as well.

 

there you have it from our Guru of Gen2~

IMO-The ground mounting plate needs to go on a fenderwell where there is room for it.
should be about 4 inches long and 2 inches tall- with 2 bolts holding it to the body.
Thats grounded!!

 

The cars electrical system runs off the battery- thats why oldie tyme cars can run with the battery pos cable disconnected, the old school alternator quick test- pull pos cable off battery- engine runs, alt is making power!
If engine dies- alt NOT making power!
Newer cars with sophisticated computers DO NOT do that test to them!!!-
too many expensive to be hot starting and live grounding things like that~

The alternators job is to recharge = replace what has been taken/used from the battery
Inside the alternator is a voltage regulator that shuts the outflow of juice to the battery when it reaches its specific voltage and amperage stored.
At idle, the alternator is not putting out any charge to speak of, so the car is running off the battery stored power
At 1500++ rpm it's putting out 20 or 60 amps~ or whatever the spec is

If you run the seat heaters on high at engine idle for long periods (check your owner book! thats where I read this part) it will overdraw the battery storage capacity, and alts. abilty to recharge it- causing engine roughness and stalling.
add in the headlights, - the 25 amp fan draw on high, stereo of how many watts!!!?!?!?!?...

thats why you dont put underdrive crank pulley on big stereo cars- it wont turn the alt fast enough at idle to support the engines fuel-ignition needs for power, and the stereo and everything else.

Does that make it understandable?- no electron flow charts- just the facts
Ground everything to the body/chasis of the car for best/actual increase in total ground space for the electricity

Note when working with electricity of any kind- and cables and possible contact to metal body of car....YOU are the path of least resistance for Ground!!! No rings, metal bracelets etc should be worn while working with it in the house or on the car.
Electricity is always looking for the easy path to ground...why do you think lighting finds tall things to connect itself to the earth?
Humans in the way? No problem! Goes right thru them really easy... with a crackling sound and burnt skin smell you never forget
The fun part is looking for the entry and exit burns on the body.

Please be careful- we now return to our regular thread topic~

 

I hear what you are saying, however I still believe the alternator produces the bulk of the current during normal operation.

According to Acura specs, the alternator is rated at 130 amps and is considered bad if below about 88 amps. Alternator output voltage is at least 13.5v. Therefore the alternator, if working correctly, can produce 88*13.5 = 1188 watts.

Of course the battery can produce more watts. IIRC voltage is 12.5v and several hundred amps. Let's say 500 amps * 12.5v gives 6250 watts.

I believe, and I have a question into a EE friend of mine, that because the alternator has a higher voltage (voltage regulator controls this), it will source the current in preference to the battery until the alternator is loaded enough to drop system voltage to 12.5v or below.

Regardless, the return path of the current is to whatever sourced it. If the alternator, then the alternator, battery then battery.

The body/chassis/frame does carry current, but eventually it HAS to 'get off the chassis' (or transmission or engine block or whatever) and return to the alternator or the battery. The 'better' (lower resistance) the return path, the more efficient the circuit is and the less current is wasted as heat.

Topology of the ground network is irrelevant (daisy chain or hub and spoke) as long as the resistance is at a minimum and conductors (cable, chassis, engine block, etc) are capable of passing the current.

Oh yeah, one other thing - yeah you have to be careful to not short out the battery or you have a DIY welding setup. If you look at the Instructable, that point is clearly made. Also, the resistance of dry human skin is too low to conduct anything more than microamps at 12v (or 13.8v). However I strongly advise against getting your tongue across the terminals of the battery. You get zapped by lightning (or house current, or anything above around 50v) because of the higher voltage.

Steve

 

Adding redundant grounds is a good idea but chances are you're not going to see the difference until the car is 10yrs old with 200,000 miles on it and the factory grounds are going away.

I did this with the GN since it's over 20yrs old and I wanted reliability. All wires are twice the size as the factory wires and I have a 00 fine stranded welding ground cable as the power and ground off the battery. You would be surprised how much faster the starter turns over.

Basically I ran a big wire from the battery to the body, battery to frame, battery to engine, body to frame, body to engine, frame to engine, not to mention a bigger fuel pump ground and better ECM grounds.

Also ran a hotwire and bigger ground to the fuelpump, slightly bigger alternator charging wire, and a huge starter wire.

The busbar method is fine but you still have one point of failure that can take everything out. Same with daisy chaining. I learned when I used to build cell sites years ago from the Verizon engineers that daisy chaining is best to avoid if you want reliability.

With the redundant grounds, one or two can fail and you're still up and running.

 

I'm with ya - daisy chain = bad for the only path. That's why daisy chain for Ethernet is not around any more. However, since I was supplementing, not replacing, the original ground network I was fine with daisy chain. Somewhat higher investment in cables could have yielded the hub and spoke configuration.

I also agree supplemental grounding won't make a hill of beans difference (in spite of the posted dyno reports) in a car with good grounds. Older car/bad grounds - yeah, I'd expect to see a difference. On the other hand, it was dirt cheap.

If I get ambitious, I'll look at the other component in those high dollar systems - the "voltage stabilizer". While I don't have one, and haven't been able to convince anyone to open theirs up, I *believe* they are essentially a series of capacitors to filter out the AC ripple produced by the alternator. Before I go to the trouble of putting one together (actually the case is probably the biggest pain), I think I'll drag my oscilloscope out and see if there's any significant ripple to smooth/filter out.

Steve

 

updates?

 

Ummmm... if you're looking for something like "Yeah, idles smooth as silk now and mileage went up 2 mpg!" then sorry to disappoint.

I cannot tell a single difference in operation. On the other hand, it was pretty cheap ;-)... but $20 spent on 3 cans of Seafoam/DeepCreep would probably yield more tangible results.

Steve

 

Your honesty is greatly appreciated. So many people imagine results from mods that might produce 1-2hp that it's nice to hear the truth. I'm sure as time goes on your grounding will keep everything as good as new instead of degrading over time. I'll probably do this in a year or so since I plan on keeping mine forever.

 

I'm a bit rusty with my RF skills, but topology and layout is actually the primary concern if your goal is to reduce noise and interference. This gets into a long winded discussion regarding RF theory and ground loops, but suffice it to say, a modern fuel injected car has its ground network optimally set up. The only way to really improve it would be to maybe solidify the connecting points in the existing system--that will give you the reduced resistance. Adding alternate paths can introduce noise. And since most everything on these cars is ECU referenced, adding that alternate path to the battery and alternator in the hopes of reducing resistance is going to make no difference (good or bad).

 

If you think ANY car has the optimal anything!!! as factory standard--you are sadly mistaken about the mindset of the auto makers and counting every penny'

Car makers use the absolute minimum quality and method to do a job, thats why there are so many aftermarket parts for better suspension, braking, steering etc

And there are ways to add grounding paths- which increase the systems abilty to ground. Going back to the battery is worthless, making a single plate or several indivdual point system to enhance the stock setup improves the abilty of the car to process signals from sensors.
The Pro 125$ units have a special RF emi whatsit reducers- stereo stuff I dont know about, but its supposed to help big watt type systems work better

Remember- the battery neg post is NOT the end point of the system!
It too, gets grounded to the car chasis. so running all the wires to it is a waste of 20 bucks
If you want to do it- run each wire to a spot on the chasis, clean to bare metal and attach end of cable with bolt or screw

 

I noticed the other day looking around the engine bay that the engine wiring harness is "made in china". Hopefully it's inspected and tested before being installed.

My point is adding grounds isn't going to hurt, probably won't help right now but in 10 years when the factory wiring and connections start degrading, the additional grounding will be nice to have.

As reference to how bad some factory wiring is, before I added a 10 guage "hotwire" from my alternator to my fuel pump plus a better ground, I was getting 11 volts to the fuel pump (GN). I was running out of fuel at the 450hp level. With the good wiring, I'm seeing the full 13.8V at the pump and still running an in-tank pump at my hp level. It does make a difference in certain components.

 

Your generalization is misplaced in this particular discussion. It's one thing to cut corners with a cup holder, but we're talking about the design of a circuit. It costs the same to route a ground the right way or the wrong way. If it is routed the wrong way, drive-ability and emissions will suffer.

Even the old Peugeots I worked on had well designed wiring for the engine management. I cite that because people almost always knock French electrical systems--even dumbasses who don't know the difference between a transistor and a diode, but like to mimic others.

Anyway, the weak point is ALWAYS the connections. With the way self-diagnostic protocols are as well as mounting concern for emissions, fuel economy, and power, an automaker has no choice but to have one of their properly educated electrical engineers decide the layout.

No, factory parts from many automakers are high quality and can last the life of the car when properly maintained. The aftermarket exists because people have a need to customize their cars. And from what I've seen, about 90% of those people don't know how to use what their car came with from the factory, so they have no need for so-called "better" parts. However I suppose aftermarket parts are "cool", even if most of the time there in no value.

 

There is of course no harm in fortifying that kind of wiring. And that is so far beyond what GM ever pushed out of the factory that I would expect some upgrades to be necessary.

 

Not to get off topic but the fuel system was marginal in stock form. First upgrade to a GN is a fuelpump and wiring.

Remember Ford products of the early 80s? The insulation literally crumbled off the wires, leaving bare wires touching bare wires everywhere. I realize they used the wrong insulating material but the manufacturer will cut any corner as long as they think it won't interfere with the warranty period.

I agree that connections are mostly always the weak link but on some of the longer runs, a larger wire helps.

 

Holy cow. This must be how world wars start.

Since this thread is fired up again, I may as well throw a little gas on the fire.

I did not "run all the grounds back to the batter". Yeah, one end of the assembly ran to the battery negative terminal, which is grounded and the other end is attached to a factory ground location.

As I verified with a friend who is an Electrical Engineer, while the engine is running (assuming the alternator is working properly). current is sourced from the alternator, NOT the battery. Cut the cables and throw the battery out, the car will still run. The reason (and this is physics, not voodoo or pixie dust) is because the alternator voltage is about 13.8v while the battery is 12.5v. Current will be sourced from the highest voltage first until the system is loaded enough to drop the voltage to 12.5v or thereabouts.

Therefore, the alternator (again, in a normally running car) is the terminal point for the current... the current comes out of the alternator, to the load - whatever it is - into the frame/chassis/sheet metal or whatever (the "ground") and eventually back to the alternator.

Feel free to check this out with your friendly local EE or electronics tech.

Steve

 

Yes the alternator is going to provide most of the power while the car is running. Note however that the battery is of course still being used. Even though an alternator's output is 3-phase and fully rectified (no jokes please), there is still some ripple (a few percent) that the battery helps to mask. I suppose the point is to make sure both alternator and battery have good connections to each other.

 

I remember a friend's Taurus in high school that was like that.

I just wanted to make the distinction to everyone because it looked like the line was getting blurred: You can have a great kickass design, and it can prove to be unreliable because of poor materials--as your example clearly shows. You could apply the same principle to the Space Shuttle Challenger.

That Taurus may have had a perfectly designed electrical system, but adding extra ground wires would not have made much difference. Using the engineer's design with GOOD wiring and connectors would have been much more beneficial.

 

yes- just like the old school alternator test was to remove the pos cable while the car was running- if it died, the alt was not putting out.
BUT
What REALLY happens in the running and CHARGING systems:
the car creates far more load than the alt can produce at one moment, so the battery is the storage facilty from which the electrical pulls its needs. The alternator-the CHARGING system- now sensing the battery is less than full- recharges/replaces what juice has been used until the signals say the battery is full.

If you want proof the car runs on the BATTERY! not the alternator-- as your so firmly believe, ask anyone on azine threads whose battery died recently. Any 04 owner will do~
First the car ran bad- maybe stalling- rough running, Check engine light
ABS TCS lights,,,wont crank fast or wont start, turning on ac and lights causes rough running....
NEW BATTERY fixed them all instantly
If they drove a long way with warnign lights on, and alt dead, the alternator is designed to put out a certain amont of amps for certain amounts of time.
With the car running only on the ALT power- it will make it home, but kill the battery flat and the alt- now overheated from overwork- it goes too

The car does not run off the alt!!!!
Make your grounds from places like exhaust studs to body, from battery to chassis, alt to body etc etc.


The wires shown in this OPs post show them linked end to end and all to one at the battery.- then the one stock thin ground cable to the chassis??- is that correct?

Note the electricty goes to actual ground- the Earth, thru the chassis and tires and into the ground- thru asphalt and everything
You have seen video of people struck by lightenng- the ultimate example of electricity looking for the easiest path to earth ground- thats often humans! It goes thru them with an entry and exit burn somewhere. Right thru your rubber sneakers and all!

Also, it does not magically appear again- its new electricity being made by the alternator!
Go look up how this stuff works- I dont need a degree in it to know bs from done right.
I built race cars and aerobatic airplanes. Ground wires are critical systems and are everywhere on those rides, this part to chassis- now this to chassis and this...

 

many race cars only run ONLY on a battery, forgoing the weight and HP drain of the alt.

recharge the battery between sessons on track- no prob for short 30-45 minute races, longer ones and the car starts to act up as the voltage in the battery drops and cant feed the injection and ignition systems needs.
Thats when its install 2nd battery or run the alternator and lose 5 hp
Weight vesus Power- the eternal struggle of mankind

 

I can't tell if you're joking or if you're on a genuine misinformation campaign. Just in case it is the latter, No. The "Earth" is absolutely positively NOT part of a car's electrical system. Even if you have the car hooked up to an AC powered battery charger, the transformer within the battery charger is isolating the car.

 

BTW, I am the OP.

Also, I REALLY hope you are joking or you have pretty much destroyed all of your credibility.

Peace out.

Steve