I hate cars

I haven't seen one of these around here and I thought it might be nice to get an idea of what others are using in a TL specifically. I've seen this type of thread on other forums, it would be interesting to see if there are major differences. Maybe list the drivers also to see any trends in size and material vs crossover points...

I'll go first:

Sub: 20hz/6db- 100/24db Two 15" AEs Paper

Midbass: 100/24- 900/24 Dyn MW 162 Poly

Midrange: 900/24- 5,000/24 Dyn MD 142 Silk dome

Tweets: 5,000/24 and up Dyn MD 102 Silk

Center: 100/24 and up. MA SK-6 comps. Poly/silk Not sure what the supplied crossover point is between the midbass and tweeter.

I'm thinking of raising the mid to tweeter to 6,000hz.

RBeachTL

My two way active system uses Seas RT27F tweeters and RW165/1 6.5" midbass; both in the stock locations with a JL audio 10W3V3 in a sealed enclosure in the trunk.

The tweeter is high passed at 3400 hZ; 18 dB/octave.

The midbass is low passed at 3400 hZ; 18 dB/octave and high passed at 50 hZ; 18 dB/octave.

The subwoofer is low passed at 60 hZ; 18 dB/octave.

I'm running the sub off of the HU's sub output and I don't think I'm getting correct bass response from this connection. I need to keep experimenting.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

what the hell, I'll play

Subs: JL 13TW5 (x2) LPF 24dB @ 71Hz

Midbass: JL C5 6.5" (door) HPF 24 dB @ 71Hz LPF 24dB @ 261Hz

Midrange: JL C5 4" (kick) HPF 24dB @ 275Hz LPF 12dB @ 3200Hz

Tweeter: JL C5 .75" silk dome (kick) HPF 12dB @ 3200Hz

Center: JL C2 4" (temporary) HPF 24dB @ 275 Hz

Running active between sub, midbass and mid via Audiocontrol DQXS, passive between mid and tweet via stock passive x-over from C5 653 3-way set.

Still a fluid deal, in process of tuning, but this has shown to be a solid baseline.

Will post pics when I finish the trunk. This has been like a 18 mo project...I'm lazy.

I hate cars

Thanks so far. Any others? I have some questions but I was trying to save it for when we get more people posting.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

I'll play in a few days

I hate cars

Looking forward to it. I was just wanting to see if there are any trends in relation to the car but I know there are a hundred variables.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Tweeters: HP @ 3kHz/12db
Mids: BP'd @ 75hz/24db -- 3kHz/24db
Subs: LP @ 80hz/12db

niebur3

I'll play....
Sub: 25hz/24db- 80/24db (1) Dynaudio Esotar2 1200

Midbass: 80/24- 250/24 Dyn Esotar2 650

Midrange: 250/24- 4,000/24 Dyn Esotar2 430

Tweets: 4,000/24 and up Dyn MD 102

Did I win anything????

I hate cars

You win most expensive system.

I'm glad to see what you're running yours at since we're going to end up with two of the same drivers. For some reason I thought you had the 130 or whatever the esotar tweeter is.

Can I pick your brain and ask why you chose the 4k low pass and not something higher?

Is the 430 stressed at all at higher volumes playing 250hz? If I choose the same 250hz crossover point, my mids will only be playing 100-250hz. I know your points are pretty much what most run with a cone mid but it seems like such a narrow range. What I got from our conversation is the 650 will still sound great at the higher frequencies so are you running the 430 kind of low to get as much of the vocal range as possible from one driver?

I think I'll end up with 300w for the midbass and 175w for the mids. Looks like they should handle that pretty easily.

Just trying to get a feel for this new mid, I can't wait to get this thing. Got to get one more paycheck under my belt before I can get it without guilt.

niebur3

Actually, I need to take more time with the crossover points to answer these questions. I have ran the 430 up to 6.3K and it sounded great. I may go back to that or somewhere in between. Still trying to get time to play with this car. My firebird I played with a lot and basically I used the same crossover points with the TL as the firebird. I had the MD130 tweeter in the firebird and the Esotar2 is a 110. I can fit either in the factory location due to both being large format.

My 430 has no problem with 250hz, and yes, I was trying to get the most vocal range in 1 driver, but probably need to play some to see what they car do at a higher x-over point. I do have a small enclosure on the 430, which helps it get to 250hz easily, but without an enclosure, you may be limited to 315hz.

You are going to love this mid!!! You may need to fab some sort of grill to protect them though!! You don't want to be kicking those!!!

I hate cars

Thanks Jerry! Can't wait to get these mids.


I made some changes tonight. I had a couple hours free so I sat in the car and tried to fine tune the crossover points.

I went up to 1,000 on the mid hp and 6,000 lp. There's absolutely no doubt it sounds better at 6k so I left it there for the rest of the tuning. Tried the mid back down to 800hz, 900hz, and settled on 950hz/24db. I feel like it sounds a little better this way especially the snare drum material. Also played around with the sub to midbass point and ended up with 95hz instead of 100. A small change, I know.

So now it's 20/6db-95/24db

95/24db-950/24

950/24-6,000/24

6k and up

I printed out several eq tutorials and went to work after I got the crossover points set. It's surprising the amount of difference that can be made with eq. I tried to cut instead of boost when I could. As I was working my way through the band I was making it sound worse. Then I would hit one of the upper frequencies and it pulled it all together. It's amazing to me how a change in some upper frequencies can so drastically change how we perceive some of the lower ones.

This dome mid really seems to like a high high pass. It seems like the higher I cross it, the less likely there is to be harshness.

jda123

Utopias at 60-250, 250-3800, 3800+
Q at 22-100
KBE in rear deck at 100-2200

jda123

Other TL:
KBE at 70-500, 6k3 (6.5") at 500-3500, TN53K 2500+
Q at 22-100
No rears

I hate cars

Thanks for the post. How do you like the Q up at 100hz? I don't find a lot of people other than myself that run the higher low pass.

jda123

Probably because they can't, or shouldn't. I like it. I like to overlap the midbass with the subwoofer too, for some reason - just personal taste. The midbass can numb my left leg over time. Not many subs will go up that high and still cover below 40 or 50, but I choose the Q as one of a handful of subs that will perform like that sealed. I stopped the W6, T1s, T2s, W7 and, a few other that I used to have, at 80hz - they just could not do it. I have a pair of 13" Focals that will go in a tiny sealed box behind the seat once my IB experiment is over and they go awesome up from 20-100 too.

I would recommend it to most people if they can do it. Seems like a lot of people like playing a sub up to 100, or even more, if it can handle it.

I meant to type 3500+ on the TN53K.

I hate cars

I had the same results on the W6 in pretty much every setup I used them in. The only downside I've found with a sub that will play as high as you want it is those times you want to crank the subs and drown out the rest of the system, they don't sound as good when you boost up to 100hz. Interestingly, the subs I have now will play female vocals.

I hate cars

Also, how is that IB experiment coming along? Which subs have you tested so far? Hopefully the AEs won't be too much longer. After nearly 2 months I got a notice that my order was processing lol.

I hate cars

I have the 142s playing 950-6k now and I think the tweeter actually sounds better with the higher high pass. It just seems smoother now. I've actually gotten good consistency from the MS8 with these crossover settings, I never would have imagined those words would come out of my mouth lol. I must've done a dozen tunes trying to fine tune the midrange crossover points and there's no doubt the 142 likes the higher points. 950 gave me the best snare drum and piano and it's much less likely to get harsh.

The reason I'm posting is actually to note that looking at the specs, the 142 has a recommended frequency range of 700-6k. The 430 is 250-7k. Looks like it should easily do the 6k that I'm currently at. For some reason I was worried that I might run into problems with it that high but according to the specs it will go higher than the dome and the dome plays 6k nicely.

I may place that Esotar order next Friday if I can get over the guilt of spending that much on a mid.

SpiderX1016

Has your crossover points changed since you posted this?

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Im going to do a little work today actually. I pulled the tweeters up to 4kHz ad they sounded much smoother. I'm wondering if the mids can handle 75-4kHz though. I've been trying to find info on the rk6 hut can't find anything! I've called Massive and asked for frequency response graphs but they didnt have them. I'd like to see where these mids and tweets fall flat, etc.

I dropped the mids down to 50hz for fun though and they took it nicely. These things are little subs lol

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Still using this setup but I had 12db slopes on my mids instead of 24db. I just switched them to 24db and they seem MUCH more refined. Not as sloppy on the lower end

Also put my sub on the 24db slope and it became a little more refined. Both sounded like the volume level decreased a bit but they sounded cleaner. Starting to sound pretty solid. This weekend I'm going to pop in the ID CXS tweeter and see how I like it and where it likes to be crossed.

I hate cars

That's what usually happens when you cut out some of the lower frequencies from the mid. The midrange will clear up. The lower you play it the more muddy the midrange will get. That's on eof the advantages of a 3-way, it takes midrange duties off of the midbass and you gain a lot of flexability in tuning. The moral of the story is buy my mids I have for sale lol. You can cut the midbass off at 800hz and start the tweeter at 6k.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

I wish! I'd love to run a 3-way setup with the midrange/tweets in a-pillar but I don't know how much longer I'll keep this car after school. Can't decide if I want to feed my speed addiction (miss my supercharged '01 cobra) or buy a nice newer sedan and do a few mod's, wheels/lowering, full audio, etc. Decisions decisions...

Where do you have your midranges at?? They still in the kicks?

I hate cars

Yep, they're in the kicks but they sound like they're coming from the windshield with the processor.

Honestly, if I had it to do over again, I would trade the audio stuff in a heartbeat to get the GN running. I love car audio but it doesn't give you that rush that speed does.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Why are you buying new mids then? lol. I agree, speed is just too damn addicting. I still frequent all my car forums and I haven't had that car for over 5 years. I'll tell you one thing I'm starting to realize, I wish I would have spend more money on fronts and less on subs. I'm sure a pair of decent 12's sealed saving me $250 wouldn't have the effect of spending $250 on a nicer 2-way or 3-way setup. Ever since I listened to that damn Morel 3-way setup with 8's in the doors, mids/tweets in apillars, IDmax under center console....I wanted that sound! It was soo rich and warm but the vocal range, instruments, etc were all so appealing without being harsh or to dull.

I wonder if I could run 3-ways off my processor lol. I thought about it and if I'm not seperating Left and Right for mids and tweets then I could just use a Y cable from amp into the 3sixty.2 and use the Front L for tweets and Front R for mids. I'd loose TA though. Damn...just thought about that. Eh...I don't have the money anyways haha

Edit: I guess I could use the midranges on the "center" channel and have no TA. Or the midbass on center with no TA. Hm

I hate cars

I fully agree. The front stage is the hardest to get to sound just right. I went through a ton of $100-$250 comps before getting the Dyns. Now every time I get in the car I'm surprised at how well they sound. I keep the subs turned down to the point that sometimes you have to turn them off just to see if they were playing.

I'm getting the mids just because I think that will bridge the gap partially between the Esotec system and Esotar system. The 430 mid is better no doubt than the 142 but it allows my midbass to sound better since I can cross it at 300hz instead of the current 900hz. The tweeters sound so much better and smoother at 6khz instead of the factory 3,800 or 2,400 in the 2-way. Adding a good mid will make your existing speakers sound better by allowing them to play in their more optimal ranges. I don't think I would upgrade the mids based solely on the SQ of the mid iteself but rather the effect it will have on the midbasses.

I hate to say it but I'm looking around for a mint condition GN with a blown engine or trans that I can transfer all of my stuff to. Unfortunately I just don't have the time to do the amount of work that's needed. The last time it ever saw the street was annihilating a new ZR1 Vette so it was a good ending.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

What happened that you need another one? Bend the frame or something lol. I've always said that when I get to around 50, I'm buying a '69 camaro and building it from the ground up.

I hate cars

Nah, I broke the axle during the race with the ZR1 then the bodyshop stole half the car. Here's it's last run: https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/finally-got-zr1-my-gn-broke-gn-737273/

I hate cars

I thought I would update this since I significantly changed equipment so for my own records. Swapped the 162 for the 650. Swapped the 142 for the 430.

Sub- 20hz/6db- 80/12
Midbass- 80/12- 350/24
Midrange- 350/24- 5,000/24db
Tweeters- 5,000/24db and up

Center- Over it. It's nice for when you have passengers and want the best compromise but I like 2-channel with a good stage better when I'm the only one in the car.

I hate cars

And one more update lol....

650- 80@12-300@24
430- 300@24-4,000@24
102- 4k@24 and up.

The 430 doesn't like to play super high like my 142 dome mid did. I had that one at 6khz and it sounded great. Maybe it's the MS8 playing games or maybe it's the difference in a cone vs dome and beaming effects. I'm trying to settle between 4khz to 4.5khz. Even 5k doesn't sound too good. Looking at the charts, I think a 3.5" cone beams around 3,800hz so that might be the issue.

Playing down to 300hz it really doesn't have any noticeable excursion. I'm temped to take it down to 250hz again. I still can't get over how they sound on live recordings. The snare drums and pluck of the guitar, or when there are a bunch of sounds going on at once, the resolution is great, keeping the separate sound of each instrument instead of blurring them all togther.

The 650s have so much midbass it's unreal for a 6.5". I've never had a midbass that will make my side mirrors go blurry with the subs off and that's with a ton of deadening.

After looking at Jerry's crossover points with the same speakers it I'm awfully close to ending up with the exact same points.

niebur3

That is what you think :wink:

I hate cars

Do tell.

I'm trying to put more time into it since the Dec 10th DIYMA/Meca meet is near and people like cvjoint will be listening to it. I think the best thing I can do is swap processors but probably not enough time.

niebur3

Okay, this is no way my final setting. I had my P01 auto tune to see what it would do. You have the choice to only have it do T/A and EQ or EVERYTHING. So I decided to let it do it all. This is the x-over points it came up with:

102's 8K - Up @ 12dB
430's 1.6K - 8K @ 12dB
650's 63 - 1.6K @ 12dB
1200 20 - 63 @ 12 dB

This sounded really different. I have listened for a while and I don't mind it. The stage is REALLY wide, like next car to you wide. I like it and will probably tweak it some, but it was just interesting to me....that's all. I believe the P01 is using the EQ points to correct phase, but I can't see what it does.

I hate cars

Now thats interesting! I would love to try that just for fun. Last night as i was experimenting the battery in the MS8s remote went dead. Now I'm stuck with a very nasal sound.

Does your deck send out a tone and use a mic similar to the MS8? No worries about beaming on the 430? Can't wait to try this just because its so different.

niebur3

It uses a very cheap looking mic that you affix in the center of the drivers seat. You start the process and it counts down, telling you to get your *ss out of the car, and starts with all sorts of tones. It takes the HU probably a good 5-7 minutes to complete everything. I'm sure the mids are beaming, but remember, sometimes beaming can be good. I'm not sure what the MS8 will think of everything, but it is a very interesting setting.

At first, I wasn't a fan (only because I saw the x-over points and thought it would sound bad), but the longer I listen, the more I like. Between the crossover points, eq, and T/A, the sub bass is locked up front like never before. I can play a very bass heavy track and look back right at the sub, and all the sound and cues are coming from the front of the car. Width, I tell you, I will hear instruments coming from the car next to me it is so wide. There is a thread on DIYMA, "where does width come from", I believe the midbass in the doors playing higher is creating the width. The kicks can actually narrow the width just a hair. You should try it and see what you think. I will still be tweaking, probably bringing the mids down some (HP & LP) and raising the MB from 63 to 80 or so.

I hate cars

I can't wait to try it or something close to it. It's so unconventional it should be fun. Everyone always told me to try and get the mid down as low as possible and I had the best luck with the old 142 at 950hz. Maybe that was a product of a dome mid or maybe I was on to something.

Hopefully the ms8 doesn't screw it up but it seems to ruin everything when the crossover points are too low but not on the upper end. Thanks for posting those.

I hate cars

I tried it and wow. Here's what I did:

MB- 80-1,600
Mid- 1,600-8,000
Tweeters- 8,000 and up

Everything at 12db

I'm with you Jerry, going to bring the mids down a little. Maybe all the way to 1khz or lower.

It's surprising how such a drastic change doesn't effect tonality much but it helped my stage. Before, I had 2 or 3 female vocals scattered across the dash. Now I only have one center vocal. Male vocals were never a problem but they're more focused now. Instruments on live recordings are easier to place and some studio recordings have that "studio" sound.

I think I can get a little better detail or resolution by the lower midrange highpass as you said but overall, thanks, this is really neat considering how unconventional these setpoints are.

I hate cars

One more update.... I've now tried the mids and midbasses at about 100 crossover points and slopes.

I ran the 430 down to 180hz and it handled it just fine with a good amount of power going to it.

I ran the 650 to 50hz with a lot of power going to it from the 600/4 and it remained composed and clear. Very surprising that I couldn't get it to distort or get muddy running it nearly at it's Fs value. So once again, this driver really shines over the previous 162 in the low end and the midrange.

So after a ton of experimenting I've ended up right back here. 20@6/80@18/1,650@12/8,000hz@12.

No visible excursion from the midrange. Very, very little from the subs unless you boost the hell out of the low end and very little from the midbasses. The system can play very loud yet very clean.

I wish someone else with a 3-way with mids in the kicks could try these crossover points because I'm curious if it works so well because of the acoustics of the TL and the kick panel mounted mids or if it's something else.

The 650s play midrange better than most dedicated midrange drivers I've heard so it make sense to take advantage of that and have them cover some of the upper midbass/lower midrange frequencies so the 430 will have less excursion and less distortion.

The 430 covers upper midrange very well and sounds better than the tweeters do in 2khz-8khz range. I was worried about 8khz because some on DIYMA said it couldn't play that high due to inductance. In fact, most said to low pass it at 3,500hz to 4,000hz. They do play it and they sound amazing doing so. It probably helps that they're nearly on axis as well.

The tweeter has an easy life playing only 8khz and above. They stay detailed and no hint of harshness whatsoever, no sibilance, just detailed and airy. I also think having as little information coming out of the tweeters and bouncing off of the windshield the better. There's less "confusion". The stage is more focused and wider and you can easily separate one instrument from another, definition is great.

I think anyone especially with a 3-way setup should re-think conventional wisdom in crossover points. All I've ever seen is people trying to run a speaker to it's absolute lowest frequency it can produce without a ton of distortion. Other than the sub to midbass crossover point (where you need to be reasonable so the subs aren't localized), I think it's an old way of thinking that hasn't been challenged. Why not have each driver operating with no visible excursion in it's optimum range with very little distortion rather than having a 6.5" covering 50hz with a ton of excursion and distortion, and a 3.5" covering 200hz when the 6.5" can do it better. Mine handled those low points very well but no matter how good the speaker is, it's going to have less distortion the less excursion it sees.

And another thanks to Jerry for discovering these crossover points. I switched back to the old 65/200/3,500 points and I can't believe that used to sound good to me.

I'm very tired so I hope this makes sense in the morning.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Why the 12db slopes?? You've probably got a ton of peaks in those overlap ranges I would assume

I hate cars

No peaks at all. In fact, the peaks and nulls are what is really solved by this setup.

The 430 is down 3db (on axis) from 7khz to 8khz naturally so with a 12db slope it's like an 18-24db slope. A steep electrical rolloff is just not needed this high up because it naturally rolls off on it's own. Or a simpler way of saying it is there is very little overlap.

Modeling the 650 and 430 on WinISD at these slopes, there's actually a 1db dip near the crossover point between the two with no peak. It's about as flat as you're going to get.

A look at max cone excursion of these drivers at these crossover points at full rated amplifier power is interesting.

The 430 shows .5mm excursion. It's rated at 3mm xmax and 11mm total.

The 650 shows 6mm excursion which is 1mm over it's 5mm xmax and way under it's 11mm total.

The IB15s show 15 mm which is well under their 19mm xmax and 25mm xmech.

These figures are at full amplifier power, no where near what I would listen to. I flat out could not hurt these speakers unless I clip the amp hard for a long period of time. Everything is always operating in a very linear range, nothing is stressed out, even at full power (well over 600w to the front stage).