I'm the most indecisive person ever. JL HD amps...
09-05-2011, 11:12 PM
#1
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I'm the most indecisive person ever. JL HD amps...
For about the 5th time, I'm changing my setup. I got a great deal on a JL HD 900/5 and 600/4, too good to pass up brand new from an authorized shop. This will give me the exact number of channels to power my whole system. 150 conservative watts for the midbass and mids with 100w to the tweeters and center and 500w for both subs.
Should be a very efficient SQ system and both amps will fit under the seats. I found a spot in the trunk for the MS8 behind the factory carpeting, a 100% stealth install, even the subs are not visible.
JL rates their amps more conservatively than most. Full power is rated at .03% thd on the HD series vs 1% as the standard. Maybe there's a little more than 150w, who knows.
I hope I don't miss the extra headroom of the Leviathan but I can't find any good deals on them new or used. The current one will be up for sale shortly.
Should be a very efficient SQ system and both amps will fit under the seats. I found a spot in the trunk for the MS8 behind the factory carpeting, a 100% stealth install, even the subs are not visible.
JL rates their amps more conservatively than most. Full power is rated at .03% thd on the HD series vs 1% as the standard. Maybe there's a little more than 150w, who knows.
I hope I don't miss the extra headroom of the Leviathan but I can't find any good deals on them new or used. The current one will be up for sale shortly.
09-06-2011, 08:21 AM
#3
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I hear you. But going back through the history I see that the prices have risen by $200. Nearly $900 for a brand new one with no deals to be found anywhere. I found an HD 600/4 and 900/5 for $1,000 new with a warranty.
09-06-2011, 10:31 AM
#7
HDs are fantastic. Be careful about the whole "underrating thing" I am running 2 900/5s and maximum unclipped output via scope is 110x4+562x1. So you are only looking at ~10% more than rated power. that's the thing though, you get that power under almost all conditions in the car. The single cycle control really is the state of the art in full range class d.
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09-06-2011, 06:59 PM
#9
Team Owner
Thread Starter
HDs are fantastic. Be careful about the whole "underrating thing" I am running 2 900/5s and maximum unclipped output via scope is 110x4+562x1. So you are only looking at ~10% more than rated power. that's the thing though, you get that power under almost all conditions in the car. The single cycle control really is the state of the art in full range class d.
Most of it was over my head so at this point I'm just repeating information I read over there.
I am very afraid of losing the headroom, the more power the better imo. I have to keep in mind why I went IB in the first place and that was to save weight and space and I kind of got hooked on the SQ thing in the process. Having both amps under the seats would be a huge plus. Losing the headroom is a step backwards.
Are you pretty happy with both the SQ and power of your HDs?
Almost forgot, the out the door price with tax and everything is $1170 so it's not super good but not bad either. It fits my requirements perfectly. The thing that's really saving me is the subs require so little power that I can get away with a single 900/5 powering both subs. This way, it will be a stealth install and I won't have any left over channels which I hate.
09-06-2011, 07:03 PM
#10
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I wish I could bridge it for the MB but I have the center also. There's always the possibility of running the center back on the MS8, it kept up nicely before but I'll have to experiment with that. It's so tempting to add another amp but the ultimate goal is a two amp solution that can fit under the seats. I guess at some point I have to compromise.
09-06-2011, 07:28 PM
#11
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Also, I think the HDs will supply the same power to an 8ohm load as they will to a 4 ohm load so the tweeters should see 100w. The 8 ohm mid is coming out eventually for the 4 ohm 430 mid.
09-07-2011, 12:17 AM
#15
Drifting
I wish I could bridge it for the MB but I have the center also. There's always the possibility of running the center back on the MS8, it kept up nicely before but I'll have to experiment with that. It's so tempting to add another amp but the ultimate goal is a two amp solution that can fit under the seats. I guess at some point I have to compromise.
09-07-2011, 09:48 AM
#16
Dogmatic Dinosaur
Instead of letting price figure this out for you, I suggest that you pick whatever your best end-game is and just pay for it.
If you will always pine for the extra zed, or wonder what might have been, then the cheaper cost of the JLs will likely haunt you for a long time.
I tell the people that work for me that "we don't have enough money to be cheap..." and this philosophy works well in hobbies too. There is no better thing to spend money on (for yourself) than getting what you want.
If you will always pine for the extra zed, or wonder what might have been, then the cheaper cost of the JLs will likely haunt you for a long time.
I tell the people that work for me that "we don't have enough money to be cheap..." and this philosophy works well in hobbies too. There is no better thing to spend money on (for yourself) than getting what you want.
09-07-2011, 01:34 PM
#21
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Instead of letting price figure this out for you, I suggest that you pick whatever your best end-game is and just pay for it.
If you will always pine for the extra zed, or wonder what might have been, then the cheaper cost of the JLs will likely haunt you for a long time.
I tell the people that work for me that "we don't have enough money to be cheap..." and this philosophy works well in hobbies too. There is no better thing to spend money on (for yourself) than getting what you want.
If you will always pine for the extra zed, or wonder what might have been, then the cheaper cost of the JLs will likely haunt you for a long time.
I tell the people that work for me that "we don't have enough money to be cheap..." and this philosophy works well in hobbies too. There is no better thing to spend money on (for yourself) than getting what you want.
The good thing is the 600/4 puts out the same power as the Zed. I can probably live with 100w per tweeter and the center from the 900/5.
09-07-2011, 01:37 PM
#22
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I haven't heard a difference in SQ between the low end amps and high end. There was no difference between the Interfire and Mac. The only time I could tell a difference in SQ, namely dynamics was with more power. From the reading I've done, the HDs are right up there with the best but most of all they will fit under the seats, are efficient, and I can run my whole system off of two of them.
09-07-2011, 01:53 PM
#23
Drifting
I haven't heard a difference in SQ between the low end amps and high end. There was no difference between the Interfire and Mac. The only time I could tell a difference in SQ, namely dynamics was with more power. From the reading I've done, the HDs are right up there with the best but most of all they will fit under the seats, are efficient, and I can run my whole system off of two of them.
I don't believe in that mythical magic dust that's in these high priced amps.
09-07-2011, 02:01 PM
#24
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I've seen more and more people thinking like this. I was undecided for a while but when I ran my $100 Interfire up against my MacIntosh and could not tell which was which, my mind was made up. Get a decent amp with low noise floor that puts out the required power and you're good.
09-07-2011, 02:56 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
Competently designed electronics are competently designed electronics for the most part. I think the biggest difference is how close you can run them to rated specs and not get distortion.
09-07-2011, 07:35 PM
#27
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I think I need a poll, who thinks I'm missing some brain cells for spending this much on car audio. If I don't make the purchase soon, I'm probably going to back out. That's a lot of money for a couple of amps and a pair of mids. The thing that keeps me wanting them is those mids can arguably be called the best automotive midrange in the world. Unfortunately, no one wants my MD142 mids I put for sale. All I've had is low ballers. One guy wanted them for half the listed price and shipped to Australia. I didn't even respond to that one. I would be lucky if I didn't lose money on that deal.
09-07-2011, 08:17 PM
#28
Dogmatic Dinosaur
The only vote that matters is yours.
If the HD are better than the slash, then you are getting amps in the 90+ percentile. I can tell a difference in the 450/4 to the Audison and Zapco... but only with the higher end drivers (TN53K and TBe, for example). The detail in the tweeters is more clear as well as the upper midrange. For example, I started to hear some cymbals and snare behind Dylan's harmonica that was not there with the slash... stuff like that. The difference for me was like a 320 mp3 to lossless and probably not noticeable to most... but we are not most. The audison are also less susceptible to distortion in hot trunks than the slash were (not an issue under the seats). Heat = distortion and short lives.
Another concern is that amps that can go near 40K frequency sound better at 20K than amps that stop at 20K... even if your drivers don't go much higher than 20K. The components in the amp are better. The 30K max freq of the JD and slash is very nice in this regard. I don't see this talked about much, but it is like frequency headroom.
I did have a slash go out on me after 8 or 9 years. I dropped it off at Isis headquarters for repair with McTurbanhead, but don't have it back yet. I wonder if it will sound better when I get it back, but I think that the channels just quit dead. 8 or 9 years and half a million miles (I drive a lot) is a good life - I would buy another one in a heartbeat, or a HD for that matter.
If the HD are better than the slash, then you are getting amps in the 90+ percentile. I can tell a difference in the 450/4 to the Audison and Zapco... but only with the higher end drivers (TN53K and TBe, for example). The detail in the tweeters is more clear as well as the upper midrange. For example, I started to hear some cymbals and snare behind Dylan's harmonica that was not there with the slash... stuff like that. The difference for me was like a 320 mp3 to lossless and probably not noticeable to most... but we are not most. The audison are also less susceptible to distortion in hot trunks than the slash were (not an issue under the seats). Heat = distortion and short lives.
Another concern is that amps that can go near 40K frequency sound better at 20K than amps that stop at 20K... even if your drivers don't go much higher than 20K. The components in the amp are better. The 30K max freq of the JD and slash is very nice in this regard. I don't see this talked about much, but it is like frequency headroom.
I did have a slash go out on me after 8 or 9 years. I dropped it off at Isis headquarters for repair with McTurbanhead, but don't have it back yet. I wonder if it will sound better when I get it back, but I think that the channels just quit dead. 8 or 9 years and half a million miles (I drive a lot) is a good life - I would buy another one in a heartbeat, or a HD for that matter.
Last edited by jda123; 09-07-2011 at 08:19 PM.
09-07-2011, 09:34 PM
#29
The only vote that matters is yours.
If the HD are better than the slash, then you are getting amps in the 90+ percentile. I can tell a difference in the 450/4 to the Audison and Zapco... but only with the higher end drivers (TN53K and TBe, for example). The detail in the tweeters is more clear as well as the upper midrange. For example, I started to hear some cymbals and snare behind Dylan's harmonica that was not there with the slash... stuff like that. The difference for me was like a 320 mp3 to lossless and probably not noticeable to most... but we are not most. The audison are also less susceptible to distortion in hot trunks than the slash were (not an issue under the seats). Heat = distortion and short lives.
Another concern is that amps that can go near 40K frequency sound better at 20K than amps that stop at 20K... even if your drivers don't go much higher than 20K. The components in the amp are better. The 30K max freq of the JD and slash is very nice in this regard. I don't see this talked about much, but it is like frequency headroom.
I did have a slash go out on me after 8 or 9 years. I dropped it off at Isis headquarters for repair with McTurbanhead, but don't have it back yet. I wonder if it will sound better when I get it back, but I think that the channels just quit dead. 8 or 9 years and half a million miles (I drive a lot) is a good life - I would buy another one in a heartbeat, or a HD for that matter.
If the HD are better than the slash, then you are getting amps in the 90+ percentile. I can tell a difference in the 450/4 to the Audison and Zapco... but only with the higher end drivers (TN53K and TBe, for example). The detail in the tweeters is more clear as well as the upper midrange. For example, I started to hear some cymbals and snare behind Dylan's harmonica that was not there with the slash... stuff like that. The difference for me was like a 320 mp3 to lossless and probably not noticeable to most... but we are not most. The audison are also less susceptible to distortion in hot trunks than the slash were (not an issue under the seats). Heat = distortion and short lives.
Another concern is that amps that can go near 40K frequency sound better at 20K than amps that stop at 20K... even if your drivers don't go much higher than 20K. The components in the amp are better. The 30K max freq of the JD and slash is very nice in this regard. I don't see this talked about much, but it is like frequency headroom.
I did have a slash go out on me after 8 or 9 years. I dropped it off at Isis headquarters for repair with McTurbanhead, but don't have it back yet. I wonder if it will sound better when I get it back, but I think that the channels just quit dead. 8 or 9 years and half a million miles (I drive a lot) is a good life - I would buy another one in a heartbeat, or a HD for that matter.
On a FR side note, I found a neat little app that is actually a guitar tuner but is a tone generator as well. I can't hear anything beyond ~14500. My co-worker who is 3 years younger can hear ~16000. My installer who is 25 yrs older can't hear beyond ~12500. So while FR is nice way high, if I can't hear 15000, I sure as hell can't hear the first harmonic at 30k...and it will only get worse as I get older. Yea!
09-07-2011, 09:37 PM
#30
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Ha! Nice reference. I never put the 2 together. When did you drop it off? Unfortunately JL is none to quick about repairs (usually ~4 weeks)
On a FR side note, I found a neat little app that is actually a guitar tuner but is a tone generator as well. I can't hear anything beyond ~14500. My co-worker who is 3 years younger can hear ~16000. My installer who is 25 yrs older can't hear beyond ~12500. So while FR is nice way high, if I can't hear 15000, I sure as hell can't hear the first harmonic at 30k...and it will only get worse as I get older. Yea!
On a FR side note, I found a neat little app that is actually a guitar tuner but is a tone generator as well. I can't hear anything beyond ~14500. My co-worker who is 3 years younger can hear ~16000. My installer who is 25 yrs older can't hear beyond ~12500. So while FR is nice way high, if I can't hear 15000, I sure as hell can't hear the first harmonic at 30k...and it will only get worse as I get older. Yea!
I have mine set up where it borders on a little bright for me. A couple of my friends and co-workers think it's missing some highs. When I listen to theirs it sounds like pure treble and nasty.
We did this hearing test and found that I can hear 20khz pretty well. Most of their hearing stopped at 12-14khz. That might be why a lot of systems sound bright to me and mine sounds dull to others.
09-07-2011, 10:30 PM
#31
I recently discovered this and I think it explains why some people think certain speakers are bright while others think they're dull.
I have mine set up where it borders on a little bright for me. A couple of my friends and co-workers think it's missing some highs. When I listen to theirs it sounds like pure treble and nasty.
We did this hearing test and found that I can hear 20khz pretty well. Most of their hearing stopped at 12-14khz. That might be why a lot of systems sound bright to me and mine sounds dull to others.
I have mine set up where it borders on a little bright for me. A couple of my friends and co-workers think it's missing some highs. When I listen to theirs it sounds like pure treble and nasty.
We did this hearing test and found that I can hear 20khz pretty well. Most of their hearing stopped at 12-14khz. That might be why a lot of systems sound bright to me and mine sounds dull to others.
spot on.
That's why whenever people ask me what the best speaker is i tell them, "the one you like the sound of the most."
09-07-2011, 11:26 PM
#32
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Hmmm. 2 HD 900/5s..... 500w per midbass. 150w per mid. 100w per tweeter and 100w for the center..... Keep the existing sub amp. So many options.
I'm starting to question how much power I actually need on the midbass since I high pass at 95hz.
I'm starting to question how much power I actually need on the midbass since I high pass at 95hz.
09-08-2011, 09:12 AM
#34
Team Owner
Thread Starter
That's part of the reason, the subs are so capable up high that there's just no need to run the 6.5s down any lower. The punch in the chest is so much greater with the 15s than the 6.5s. Don't get me wrong, midbass is awesome, I've run the Dyns down to 50hz and they sound great and do it with ease but even with layers of sound deadening and luxury liner and foam, they still vibrate the doors and worse of all my pant leg which I hate. Crossing them up high gives more impact and the 15s do it effortlessly. At 80-95hz, there's no visible movement from the 15s even at very high SPL. Crossing the drivers over higher has really brought the system to life, especially at high volumes. Each speaker has practically no excursion so distortion is kept to a minimum.
09-08-2011, 09:22 AM
#35
Dogmatic Dinosaur
I dropped the amp off about a month ago.
You have to have drivers that can perform near 20K too - they dyns should. FR and actually sounding good up there are totally different. IF you can hear well up there and IF you have drivers that can go up there and IF you don't have cheaper components that cut the higher signal (crossovers) and IF you have quality music where the higher signal is not clipped, then better amps will sound better.
Anyway, sorry to get this off topic since the HD is plenty capable and so it the zed. I guess that I was trying to say that you cannot go wrong with those two, but I do not agree that all amps are the same.
You decide if you are going HD or Zed?
You have to have drivers that can perform near 20K too - they dyns should. FR and actually sounding good up there are totally different. IF you can hear well up there and IF you have drivers that can go up there and IF you don't have cheaper components that cut the higher signal (crossovers) and IF you have quality music where the higher signal is not clipped, then better amps will sound better.
Anyway, sorry to get this off topic since the HD is plenty capable and so it the zed. I guess that I was trying to say that you cannot go wrong with those two, but I do not agree that all amps are the same.
You decide if you are going HD or Zed?
09-08-2011, 09:50 AM
#36
I think I need a poll, who thinks I'm missing some brain cells for spending this much on car audio. If I don't make the purchase soon, I'm probably going to back out. That's a lot of money for a couple of amps and a pair of mids. The thing that keeps me wanting them is those mids can arguably be called the best automotive midrange in the world. Unfortunately, no one wants my MD142 mids I put for sale. All I've had is low ballers. One guy wanted them for half the listed price and shipped to Australia. I didn't even respond to that one. I would be lucky if I didn't lose money on that deal.
09-08-2011, 12:11 PM
#37
Racer
Buy the Mids, the 142's suck, I can honestly speak from experience, I'm the first on this board to have a System 362 frnt & 340 rear, & run an active center for a pinch, Tore it all out & went PHASS,
I do have a complete set of 3way Esotar2's, And someday may change, but for now its not happening. The 430, is almost on PAR with the Phass, Micro-Percision, & the ZR, and a few other DIY home ref drivers. The later 3, like Hi-End amps, are reference grade components where instrument grade percision measurements are made to achieve higher standards. Its the same differences with amps the rewards are smaller but under certain conditions higher more precise conditions can be achieved, My experience has shown
me achieving some of these levels in car audio is like watching you wallet spin out of control into an abyss..... but for now the alimony's not that bad and Cuban cigars are still affordable, so what else can you burn it on.
I do have a complete set of 3way Esotar2's, And someday may change, but for now its not happening. The 430, is almost on PAR with the Phass, Micro-Percision, & the ZR, and a few other DIY home ref drivers. The later 3, like Hi-End amps, are reference grade components where instrument grade percision measurements are made to achieve higher standards. Its the same differences with amps the rewards are smaller but under certain conditions higher more precise conditions can be achieved, My experience has shown
me achieving some of these levels in car audio is like watching you wallet spin out of control into an abyss..... but for now the alimony's not that bad and Cuban cigars are still affordable, so what else can you burn it on.
09-09-2011, 09:40 AM
#38
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I just picked up an HD600-4 for $375 shipped. That helps a lot.
09-10-2011, 01:41 AM
#40
Early Shifter
iTrader: (2)
Best of luck putting things together, IMO JL Audio is high end enough. Very high quality products, I have a really nice 500/1v1 collecting dust and if it doesn't soon sell with pair it with a 12W3 or W6 and in the TL they will go. lol
Not advertising, just saying that JL certainly makes quality stereo components.
Not advertising, just saying that JL certainly makes quality stereo components.