diggidyd

I'm trying to determine how to build a high SQ system in my TL. My first requirement is high SQ, second, but almost as important, is I want it to be minimally intrusive - i.e. use factory head unit and take up as little trunk space as possible.

The main things I'm seeking input on are opinions on a processor, an iPhone 5 interface, and high quality front speakers (and opinions on rears). I've mostly decided on the amp and sub. I'd like something bluetooth to stream wirelessly, though I'm not sure if there is any audio compression when streaming via Bluetooth? Are there units that combine the iPhone interface and signal processing? If I'm using a JL audio amp (see below) should I use their CleanSweep product, or something else?

I know there's been a lot posted over the years here and I've read a lot, but there are so many nuances and opinions I'd love opinions specific to my situation.

For the sub/amp, I've pretty much decided on the following:

Sub - JL Audio 10W7 in an UNCALD4 enclosure. This enclosure appears to use the least trunk space, though I'm not sure I'll be able to find one. I've always wanted a 10W7, so even though there may be some subs for a better value, I'm pretty set on this one.

AMP: JL Audio 900/5. Mainly because I'd love to have everything powered off one amp, even if separates could do slightly better, I think this would do well enough and would save space/complexity.

I hate cars

I agree with the 10W7 but you will probably not find one of those enclosures with enough air space for that sub and too little air space is a good way to ruin SQ by making it sound boomy. If space saving is high on the list, have you considered infinite baffle? A single 13W7 would be awesome, require very little power, and take up very little space.

Of course for the front stage I'm going to recommend Dynaudio, preferably the Esotar series if you want an extremely accurate, life like sound reproduction at high volumes.

I would also go as large on the midbass as you can for realistic reproduction and lots of flexibility in the tuning. I have Dyn 182s in my doors, a 10" midbass that fit with minimal modification. Obviously you would only want to do this on a 3-way due to beaming.

If you're set on using a box for your sub, I would go ported if you can spare a little extra space.

diggidyd

Thanks for the thoughts! I visited one of the better shops in the area tonight and the owner led me to reconsider a few choices. He strongly suggested the newer JL audio 13TW5v2 if I wanted to save space, have a removable sub if I get rid of the car, he loves its sound. It's their higher end small space solution often used for trucks. I haven't seen it mentioned on the forums here but it looks promising. I'll probably shy away from IB because I'd like something removable and non-custom. The UNCALD4 box I figured I could resell if necessary.

I've never heard the Dynaudio. I'll have to see if any dealers around here carry them so I can hear a demo.

At the store tonight they had some Boston Acoustics Pro60's which I really liked, for a great price, so I'm leaning towards those, though a few threads on here have mentioned they're power hungry and the 900/5 only puts out 100 per channel. Still I think this would likely be fine. I don't plane on going for a 3-way up front.

I also have decided on the 3sixty.3 for processing. I don't think I'll need to add an iSimple on top of that as it has Bluetooth streaming built in. I haven't decided on rear fill yet as that doesn't seem to be a priority.

So current potential setup looks like

3sixty.3
HD 900/5
JL 13TW5v2 or 12W6v2 or 10W7
Boston Acoustics Pro60s (not set in stone)

Because I'm likely going to go with this shop (liked the vibe) I may be limited by their brands, which include JL audio, RF, Alpine, Boston, Phoenix Gold.

Any other thoughts?

I hate cars

It sounds like you have your mind made up on equipment. I have a SQ system that gets pretty loud, a pair of 15s IB, two JL600/4 amps, and a 1200/1. I used to have a 900/5 and a 600/4 only. A 3-way Dynaudio front with 10s in the doors and the Esotar 430 midrange, 110 tweeter. Processor in the trunk. It retains a stock look except for the large format tweeters. Before I used these tweeters the car looked stock. Amps under the seats, retains the spare tire. 90% or more of the trunk is retained, no evidence of a system at all until I put the large format tweeters in. Very well hidden, no utility loss. Considering the power level and size and number of speakers it was a pretty good feat.

Several people around here have nice systems, some are pretty stealth.

eggyhustles

"what should i get"

"well, i already have my mind set on these"

Same topic..every week.

diggidyd

IHC - so are both stages in your door then? Did this require you modify the door? I'm guessing one of your posts has some pics - do you happen to have a link? I'll see if I can search for it but searching on forums is an art.

eggy - I'd actually appreciate your insights. You seem to know a lot. I don't necessarily have mind set on every component.

In fact, based on IHC response, I'm going to go demo Dynaudio - looks like we have a dearler based on Dynaudio's site. It's likely out of my budget, but we'll see. Would you guys recommend their mid-line - or is it top or bust with Dynaudio?

I'd also love any opinions on the JL 13TW5 vs their W6 or W7.

I hate cars

The shallow sub is great for a shallow sub but it's not going to match the SQ or output of the W6 or W7. The W7 is their top subwoofer, it's a SQ subwoofer that happens to get loud. It's like a W6 but with more excursion. They're not cheap but one W7 can have as much output as a pair of "normal' subs so it's not a bad deal. They are deep and will require a fairly large box. They're heavy so not that easy to remove if you need a removable sub, but they will sound great and get louder than most. I highly recommend putting the JLs in a larger than recommended sealed enclosure, they will sound better and require less power the larger you go. I kept going larger and larger until I finally went infinite baffle which gave even better sound and efficiency. If you're doing a box, I would go ported tuned low, especially if you're going to run a processor.

I encourage you to demo the Dyns, just make sure everything on the sound board is level matched. If one set is a little louder than the rest, the brain can interpret that as sounding better. Hopefully they will have a set installed in a car with a good tune. They will get loud and handle a ton of power but most importantly they are the most true to real life sounding speakers I've ever heard. They're not laid back or bright, they're just detailed and true to the recording. You can feed them tons of power and they never get muddy or give up.

They have the Esotar and Esotec line with the Esotar line being the highest end. They don't make low end or even mid level speakers, only high end. I think you would be more than happy with the lower Esotec line. The Esotars are just amazing. Almost every time I get in the car I'm impressed with how good they sound. They're stupid expensive, I'm sometimes still shocked that I spent this much on speakers but now that it's done it was worth it. The Esotecs are much cheaper and sound great.

I have the Esotec 10s in the doors and the Esotar midrange in the kick panels made by a member on here. They take up no foot space and most people don't even notice there are speakers down there. I ran the tweeters in the stock locations for a while which was fine until I started trying to get a good sound stage and I get better focus with the tweeters facing me and not reflecting off the windshield. I also went from the normal sized Esotec tweeter to the Esotar tweeters which are over 4". Big difference in performance but they're pretty much impossible to hide unless they go in the kicks which I don't want to do. This is the one area I failed to keep it stock appearing.

I had to cut the hole in the door larger and put a couple washers between the window track and the door. Very easy work with no major surgery required. Most people have to do a little cutting on the doors for aftermarket 6.5s. In this case you're only cutting the hole larger but that's about it. There's a thread on large midbasses open right now with a little more detail. It was easy, anyone could do it if I could do it. The large midbass gives a realism to the music that a 6.5" has a hard time reproducing.

If you don't go Dynaudio, the JL C5, HD 900/5, and a W6 or W7 would be a great combo. The 900/5 would be on the weak side for the W7 unless it's run infinite baffle or ported with it's extra efficiency. It would still get plenty loud, just not close to it's full potential.

I had pictures of everything but my host went down permanently. I'm not sure I can recover them.

eggyhustles

Everything looks fine 'cept the small enclosure requirement.

Small enclosures are kryptonite to w7's.

You should either,

1. IB
2. PWK design

For the guys that don't need all out spl, IB is the best route for these cars.

diggidyd

Great advice guys. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I've been reading a lot of your past threads, and there are just so many details. I waffle between wanting to totally get into this as yet another hobby, versus just paying someone to install me a good system and be done with it. I'm leaning towards the latter, but I do enjoy learning about this stuff.

So many tradeoffs it sounds like. From your previous threads it sounds like very few shops will do IB for you. I'll ask. I'm not looking right now to do any of the installation stuff myself. I'd love to learn at some point, preferably with someone that knows what they're doing, but right now I think I'll fork over the $500 to someone that is experienced. Of course the biggest limitation there is whether shops will accept you using equipment sourced elsewhere, and of course their own knowledge. The shop I liked that I visited on Saturday said they wouldn't install equipment the didn't source. I would trust the shop I visited yesterday to do a good job, but I doubt they do IB, for example.

Very interesting on the large mid-bass in the doors. I'll probably stick with a two-way as I'm going for a very good, but not audiophile level system, trying to balance cost/time/removability/sound quality.

If I understand your thought correctly on subs, you wouldn't recommend any of the premade JL boxes, right? A custom low-tuned ported box or IB.

If I'm just going to use a single subwoofer driver with the sub line of the 900/5, would a 12W6 be ideal? or a 10W7? Seems like there are a lot of opinions on the JLs "W7 is for SPL, W6 for SQ". The guy at the shop liked the TW5 as he felt they were "newer technology" and where the "innovation" was, but of course you can't out-innovate physics. I don't have much experience listening to them to opine, but I try to be open to opinions (and to not accepting those opinions if someone with more knowledge has a different one).

I'm sure I'll have a few more questions as I get closer to finalizing.

One I have that I'd like to confirm - would be better to bridge the four channels on the 900/5 for the fronts and use the stock amp with the stock speakers for the rear fill? Do I even need to replace the stock rears with something even slightly better, and if I did, should I still run the new ones off the stock amp?

diggidyd

Demo'd the Dynaudios tonight. I'm ruined. I should never have listened to them because now Ill never be satisfied with whatever I end up with. I should have stated up front I'm looking to limit myself to $3000 including tax & install.

The Esotecs were very neutral. Sounded good but didn't blow me away. It also wasn't a fair comparison because it was in an open air rack. Then I listened in a closed room to the esotars with the 110 tweeters. I was blown away. Musical ecstasy. That tweeter is amazing. Such snap and power but not harsh. They also had the same woofer with the 102 tweeter and it was night and day different.

I also heard the C5 in a vehicle and wasn't super impressed, probably because I'd just heard the Esotars.

The shop owner recommended the audison voce k6's for my price range. But he didn't have any ready to demo. Any experience with those?

Still not sure what to do sub-wise but I'm leaning towards a single sealed W7 as I realized I don't need that much thump and I'd prefer to save on space. The ported boxes are so big. And yup, neither shop were fans of IB.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

Just ind of scanned this thread, so I apologize if I'm re-hashing.

If you are planing on bluetooth streaming as your main source, SQ is out the window. You will lose tons of definition on the bottom end and the top will lose detail.

Also, what is your reference for "high SQ"? If streamed BT as a source honestly fill the bill for you for high SQ then you are WAYYYYYY overshooting on product.

HD amps are great, w7 are great, pick out a speaker you like and off you go.

If it were me building a minimally intrusive high SQ system, I'd run a USA Spec ipod adapter for audio into the stock unit to integrate the iPhone. I like the USA Specs because I've just had too many bad experiences with iSimple. I'd go preamp out of the unit into a processor. Honestly I'm up in the air on which one. Something that does EQ, X-over, and time correction. I'd run JL HD amps for whatever configuration you need for speakers (active 2/3 way, + sub), Speakers I'd do 3 ways with a mid and tweet in the kick, midbass in the door or under dash, and no rear speakers. W7 sealed will handle bass nicely.

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

Agree about the bluetooth. You're sacrificing a lot of SQ for convenience. It would be a shame to have super high end gear like those Dyns only to be streaming low quality BT audio to them. You may as well keep your stock speakers. I have a BT jamboxx that I use when I'm working in the garage or outside and their great for that.
iirc the USA SPEC puts out a nice flat signal. I've used USA SPEC in several cars for many years and they have been rock solid. Even this last Christmas when I thought it broke, it got down to -15 below in northern MN and the next morning I couldn't play audio through my iPhone but it turned out the Apple iPhone 5 lightning adapter had gone bad.

Too bad you can't go IB. It would be ideal for what you want. Requires very little space and SQ can be fantastic. It only needs half or less wattage than what your typical sealed or ported sub needs. The TL is ideal for IB since the back seats don't fold down any way and it's got that ski pass opening. If your somewhat handy with tools building and mounting a baffle is not difficult at all.

I hate cars

Just keep in mind most shops are clueless about IB. It has the same output potential as sealed but with less power required. There's better cone control without the air spring. The down side is it obviously has to be fabricated but if you want something that will sound great and dig deep with little power, IB is perfect. It doesn't hurt that my pair of 15s plus the baffle barely crack 40lbs combined. The W7 sound absolutely great in IB. Obviously it's not the answer to world hunger but don't let a shop that doesn't understand IB talk you out of it if you're considering it. Next time you're there, ask them what's louder, IB or sealed and I bet they say sealed.

diggidyd

Greg and Joe - thanks for the thoughts! I wasn't sure what compression BT added, but sounds like it's significant so I'd definitely use something else in that case, as my iPhone WILL be my primary music source. Sounds like the USA SPEC over the iSimple?

Matt, where/how did you install your 110s - can you post a pic of them installed? I really wish I could demo some of this equipment actually installed in a vehicle and listen to an IB setup. One of my concerns with IB is that you have to cut the upholstery and wall of the trunk, correct? I'm trying to leave the car as unmodified as possible to be able to rip the system out if I switch vehicles in 3-4 years.

Also, on IB vs sealed, is there a significant SQ difference? If it's just a matter of power savings - I already know I'm going to be using the 500W from the 900/5, and that is enough to push a sealed 10W7 pretty hard, right?

Current potential system is looking like:

USA SPEC or iSimple
3sixty.3 or Audison Bit One (need to research the differences still)
JL HD 900/5
Dynaudio 650
Dynaudio 102 or 130 or 110 - latter two require custom kicks - another $400
JL 10W7 or 12W6, either sealed or IB, likely sealed.

I hate cars

Speaking in general terms, IB usually has a flatter response. The sub is not fighting against an air spring so cone control improves contrary to how most think that the air spring of a box helps control the cone. It increases cone overshoot or ringing and decreases efficiency. Requiring less power is not only good because its less power lol, it reduces distortion. The sub doesn't need as large of a motor. Sometimes you can go with cheaper subs due to the fact they don't need to overcome an air spring. I've used the JL W6 and W7 in IB along with a few 15s and some other 12s. Oh, and a 10W7. I ran my 12W6s for 6 years and over those years I ran them small sealed, large sealed, ported, bandpass, and IB in that order. Small sealed sounded the worst to me. Large sealed sounded better. Bandpass was great, lots of output, almost non existent excursion and ported sounded great. I liked all of those setups except for small sealed. Every one of those setups had at least one thing I would change about the sound. With IB the sub did everything perfect on every type of music. IB is not the best at everything but for SQ it's hard to beat. I haven't run a sub sealed and IB that didn't sound better IB.

In order of efficiency it would go ported, IB, sealed with ported being the most efficient and sounding good when done right.

I think I have some pictures of the 110s on the camera, I'll try and upload them and find a host tonight. They're on the dash on axis with the driver. I'm waiting to find someone that can build something that looks nice to house them in. I tried them in the kicks, on the dash facing the windshield, and in what little of an a-pillar we have, and the last place was where I have them now which I like the best. Currently they're just velcro'd in place on the windshield and the dash. I'm on a waiting list to get them fiberglassed in using factory fabric. Mine are machined down in diameter and use the grill from a Morel dome midrange. I believe they're roughly 4" in diameter. I'm not sure if you could get away with the full sized tweeter in this position, they would be closer to the back of the dash. I was worried with the driver's tweeter being significantly closer to the driver than any other speaker but with processing you can't pick it out from any other speaker and the sound stage is nice.

diggidyd

So it sounds like my idea of having a nice small custom sealed to fit in the rear corner just isn't going to sound great (something like the UNCALD4). How much tearing out of stuff occurs on the car doing IB?

If I do the 110's I'm pretty sure I'd mount them in kicks. Did you like how they sounded there - as in is it way better where they are now? Jerry recommended them in kicks...

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

The other day I was thinking about how a baffle could be made that wouldn't require cutting any, or very little, of the trunk liner and I think it could be done.
The way I thought about doing it would be to use 1/4" MDF on the outer 1" or 2" perimeter of the baffle where the trunk liner butts up to it. The rest of the baffle would still be two layers of 3/4" MDF. The L brackets that are used to secure the baffle to the car would need to be longer on the end that bolts to the baffle so they could extend past the 1/4" MDF and be attached to the thicker part. If I were to do it over I'd go that route. I can't say for sure but it's possible that no cutting of the upholstery would be necessary.

diggidyd

Interesting. I'm wondering how much of this install I could do myself. I've never done anything like this, and this would be my first system. I am not a real mechanical tinkerer and live in an apartment, but my brother does have tools 30 minutes up the road. I did take wood shop in 8th grade I guess my main concerns doing it myself would be the amount of time given that I have zero experience, and just not doing it very well. On the upside, there's probably $500-1000 of savings over having a shop install, but also I could source used components which would save a lot given how expensive these components are. Another option is to try to find a shop that would install the used components - a lot of shops won't.

I hate cars

I did mine while living in an apartment with 5th grade wood working skills lol. Some tools I bought, some I borrowed.

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

Too bad I still don't live over that way or I'd help you out. I used to live in South Jordan.
If you want I could give you the measurements for the baffle that I made. I think I still have the card board template that I used somewhere. It might save you some time and if nothing else you could probably find somebody to build one for you.

diggidyd

Oh dang. That would definitely have been ideal. I now live in South Jordan. Small world. Yeah, send the measurements - maybe I can convince my brother to help me and I can use this as some family bonding time, haha. Did you get to know any of the shops out here? Any pros you would trust?

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

Well that was about 10 years ago.. man I'm getting old.. and I always did my own installs. I bet most of places I went to are probably out of business now. There was this little shop in Provo I think it was at 500N 500W that always had killer prices on high end gear. Prices were never marked and the owner would literally bargain with you on the spot. lol. He could be a total dickhead though. On multiple occasions I heard him tell customers to get out of his store if they didn't like the price. He reminded of the soup nazi from Seinfeld haha.

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

Here's the template I made if you or anybody else wants to use it. At those measurements there will be a little wiggle room to play with. I purposely left about 1/4" - 1/2" gap around the edges to make it easier to install. There's really no point in trying to make it fit perfectly. I did that on my first baffle and it was a waste of time and made it difficult to install. As long as its close it will be sufficient because you'll be sealing the gaps around the edges any way. I used some left over sound deadener I had for that.

diggidyd

Thanks for posting. I'm going to research the other threads on doing DIY infinite baffle. Was the place in Provo you were referring to Stereo Steve's? I've never been in, but have seen his website...

diggidyd

Question for Matt or Jerry or the other guys doing infinite baffle. Since I've decided to pretty much copy your system (except 2-way instead of 3-way) I've decided to go with AE subs instead of the JL. I'm going to do the SPB rather than the IB. My question is advice on one vs two. I want my sub to be able to pound occasionally so you can really feel it, even though I will only listen at high volumes occasionally. So is one sufficient or is two really better? It will be driven by the 500w of the 900/5. I need to decide now to put in an order with John since he has 3 week lead time. Also I'm assuming a 4 ohm? I'm not real familiar with when a different impedance is recommended.

Also good news, I found (I think) a good experienced installer that knows IB from the old days.

diggidyd

Another question. In researching iPhone interfaces it sounds like the Audiovox Dice is best as its the only one for our cars that keeps the signal digital. The iSimple and USA spec add an extra A/D conversion. Thoughts here?

05_NBP_TL

iTrader: (1)

Do two subs if the budget allows. If I ever change anything about my setup, I would do two subs (15's). Right now I have one ID Max 12 on 600watts and it enough for me. For the fun factor, two subs would be recommended.

I know IHC's and others will chime in about the benefits of having two subs vs. one sub. (More displacement, etc....)

pohljm

A single 15 with 300watts in IB is more than enough for an older guy like me, but you youngsters would be happier with a twin 15 setup is my thought.

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

I had a single JBL 15 on 300 watts and it didn't last. After a week the coil smelled burnt so I sent it back and went with two IB15s not because I like to drive around town with the subs blaring and windows rattling but having two of those subs raises the Qtc value closer to .707 which is considered ideal for flattest response, deep bass extension and high SPL. It's also nice to have the extra headroom for the dynamics in music. When called upon they can deliver.

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

USA Spec or iSimple is your best bet with the edge going to USA Spec imo. They've been at this a longtime and have a very solid product with good SQ. The iSimple still needs firmware updates and bug fixes but ppl generally seem to like them.

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

Yes, go with the 4ohm. Two subs would be about perfect for that amp. 250w each. If you decide to only get one sub be careful that you don't push it too hard bc 500w is way more than recommended.

diggidyd

Thanks guys. I'll likely go with two AE SPB 15s. I assume the baffle if made well will be sufficient even though with two 15" holes there won't be a ton of material.

Now I'm trying to decide on a processor and iPhone integration. I appreciate the thoughts there. Right now the two main contenders are the PS8 and the Audison Bit One. I'm thinking I want to be able to just link directly from my iPhone into the processor to take away at least one additional set of conversions. I.e. instead of using a USA Spec or Dice or iSimple, be able to switch inputs on the processor - still be able to send radio or CD to the system, but for iPhone have it go directly to the processor via it's aux input. One problem with the PS8 is that Arc hasn't released the controller to allow you to easily switch inputs. I belive the 3sixty.3 and the Bit One have such controllers.

My main two questions on this are

1) Whether you think there will be much benefit of sending iPhone analog directly to the processor vs going through an iPhone interface to head unit - then to processor.

2) More specifics on why PS8 vs Bit One vs 3sixty.3

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

The advantages to using a usa spec or iSimple is that a) your connecting to the iphone's data port. This port puts out a low level, clean, flat signal. The headphone jack is not nearly as good.
b) usa spec and isimple allow you to use the steering wheel controls as you can now and get song/title text display on your radio.
It really doesnt add any complexity to your system. With the Usa spec you press the XM button and your iPhone starts playing music.

I don't have any experience with the others but I just got the 3.sixty3 and am really liking it so far. Within 30 minutes of getting it installed I had basic time alignment set and my system tuned to a flat signal. Sounds much much better. I'm looking forward to playing with it a lot more and fine tuning it to my liking. I still need to get a calibrated mic and more free time. But I'm about to change up my front stage I'm probably going with Dyn mids and tweets so I'm going to wait until I get those installed before I do any more processing.

With all the nice equipment your going to be installing it would be worth it IMO to get a calibrated mic so you can use an RTA.

diggidyd

Great point on the benefits of integrating with the steering wheel controls. That alone may be worth going with an integration kit. I'm not sure about the signal. I believe with the USA or iSimple the D/A conversion actually happens in the Lightning to 30 pin adapter and those units take an analog signal from the phone. I believe the Dice is the only kit that actually takes the digital signal. But even then, it's a matter of where you want the conversion to occur. From what I've read, the DACs on the iPhone 4, 4s, and 5 are actually quite good and outputting directly to a processor or AMP gives good results. With an adapter I'll be doing a D/A in the lightning to 30 pin, then into the satellite radio port - I'm not sure if the USA or iSimple sends an analog or digital signal into the head unit - anyone know about this? But then you've got the head unit manipulating the signal into the 6 channels, then processor sums and redigitizes before converting back to analog. So you've got like D/A/D/A/D/A going on if I understand right. Since I've never actually heard either setup in my system I have no idea which would actually sound better. Maybe I'll try both - adding a 1/8th inch cord from the processor shouldn't be hard. The only pain is that using the PS8 you'd have to have a computer to actually switch the input since it has no interface as of now, something which may make the Audison or 3sixty.3 a better option.

Thanks for your thoughts!

diggidyd

I just realized I misread. You were talking about the low level analog output from the data connector versus the amped signal from the headphone jack.

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

Correct, with two 15's there's surprisingly very little material left so at a minimum you'll want to double up on the MDF and use two 3/4" sheets glued and screwed securely together. Covering the entire surface with wood glue is essential. Your installer should already know this. I figured the center was probably going to be the weakest point and purposely left some space between the two subs. I also put extra 1 1/2 inch wide strip of MDF vertically down the center along the back of the baffle to help brace it more. When done it probably only weighs 10 lbs or so. I've watched for flexing on heavy bass songs and couldn't see or feel any.

If you have seen them already I have some pictures of my baffle over here https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-audio-bluetooth-electronics-navigation-94/need-infinite-baffle-suggestions-pics-877872/

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

^^ correct. Amped signal is what i should've said.