ebernedo86

Hey everyone
I looked and searched on the threads and didnt find the exact answer I needed hence I'm posting up this.

I currently drive an 07' TL Type S.

For the current time being, I would like to upgrade the front and back speakers. I'm not worried about a sub...yet lol

So for the front (which is my main question here)..I did a little bit of research and wanted to get your thoughts
I was debating between these two:

http://www.focal-america.com/wp-cont.../09/165V30.pdf
The Focal 165 V30

or
JL Audio C5
http://www.jlaudio.com/c5-650-car-au...-systems-99104

They are both just about the same price at ~$550ish
I talked to a few people and most said for the price, the Focal should be better. I'm going to an audio shop later this week to test out both.

Also, will either of these speakers actually fit into the front? I'm doing the installation myself but my buddy's dad who does car installs can do it for it and I was curious if this will go right now or there is some modification or adapter plates I need to purchase?

So based on this decision, I wanted matching speakers in the back (6x9 correct?) and should these be component as well or is it only the front that I need to worry about? most people said it won't be necessary to get components in the back, your thoughts?

So based on which fronts I pick, which of the matching JL c5's or Focal's should i go with?

Based on all this, how much should I power these speakers with and which amp would be best? some of the guys have told me the JL HD amps are great but I was curious on which to go, and how much watts RMS per channel etc.

Take into account I want to hook this up to my factory stereo for now, and I know I need to buy extra hardware for that (forget what the name is so I may need help with that)

I'm a bit of an audio noob but I want a nice setup where it'll sound way better than factory radio and I would appreciate the help from anyone.

phlames

I would go wit focal speakers. U need to run a aftermarket amp to them too...factory amp does not put out enough watts....u will need to cut the front door for the speaker to fit n maybe an spacers too depend on how big the speakers are...

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Another thing I'd like to add is that you need to think about sound deadening and sealing. $500 speakers with no deadening or sealing will likely not sound near as good as $400 speakers with $100 worth of deadening/sealing. Install is a VERY big factor in car audio. We have literally tons of reflections, vibrations, etc to deal with so it's not as easy as just tossing something in and getting the best sound from those speakers.

I run SDS (sound deadener showdown) products in my car. Their CLD tiles for deadening and their Mass Loaded Vinyl (MLV) & Closed Cell Foam (CCF) for the sealing portion. I would suggest looking into either SDS or a company called Second Skin. Jerry...the dealer I was talking about earlier....also sells a product called Cascade, which is certainly on par with the 2 I've already mentioned. Either of the 3 will work great for you.

niebur3

I would strongly caution using any component set with metal tweeters (both the JL and Focal are metal) IF you are using the factory locations. Our factory tweeter location has the tweeter firing right at the windshield. This is probably the worst possible mounting position for metal dome tweeters (I don't care what they are coated with - some Focal tweeters are coated to help this problem). The end result will be a system that is VERY fatiguing on the ears and not enjoyable at all for any long period of listening. You would need a very powerful processor to get away with this.

I would be more than happy to help you with a few brands I offer, but if you feel more comfortable buying local, see what brands they have they would give you a soft dome tweeter. Actually almost every other brand I can think of has soft dome except the 2 that you mentioned...lol. Feel free to listen to many different sets (maybe at more than one shop), report back and I would be more than happy to steer you the right direction.

Just remember, that awesome detail and crisp highs you are about to hear on a demo board is not at all how it will sound in your car firing directly at the windshield, then reflecting off the dash plastic.....changes the sound big time!

I hate cars

I would go with the C5s based on my personal preference out of those two. They sound better than the top of the line ZRs to me and more laid back than the focals. Not qute as bright as some other metal tweeters. It would be best if you could listen to both. I've never been a fan of Focal speakers. Even their Be tweeters while detailed were too harsh for my tastes. Best yet, don't waste your money on the rears and use the difference to get a Dynaudio 242 set for the front and you'll never want to upgrade again.

The stock rears sound fine with an amp on them.

I love the HD amps, I've got one under each seat. Good efficient clean power in a very small package. I can't say how much power you'll "need". I'm sure 75w per channel will get plenty loud but each time I've added more power, the system sounds more dynamic and overall better. My personal opinion is nothing under 150w and the only reason I say that is for sound quality, not to be heard around the block. Crossover points will also determine power requirements to a point. If you don't need a small amp or class D, you can find other amps with the same power for a little less money.

ebernedo86

Thanks for all the input..I appreciate it.

In response to your questions:
Any reason you're looking at just these 2?

No specific reason, Just always heard these two brands are good..I've had JL audio in the past and they don't dissapoint but have also heard focal is quality..I'm open to listen to other components around the same price. so what ever the best bang for the buck is. $500ish for front

Backs are 6.5" also. Some go component and some go coaxial.

......And some say forget the rears and put that money towards your fronts!!!
I guess the audio store I called had it wrong, they said 6x9s in the back..but if its 6.5 then so be it lol
Hmm i've thought about that, but for me personally it does feel weird just having stocks in the back lol...but im not opposed to it either..but I think im on the fence leaning towards nice fronts..and same brand but not components in the back....
Best thing to do is audition as much as you can. Listen to both and listen to tracks you're familiar with and will be listening to. See what you like and don't like on each one. If you could find out what else the shop has that'd be great. We have a dealer on here (his name is Jerry and his name on here is Niebur3...shoot him a private message) that I would talk to and he can get you set up. He's a dealer of Image Dynamics, Dynaudio, etc etc. Just a thought for ya
I saw he also posted back and I'll definitely be getting back to him, I wanna try all options and get the best for my money
I wouldn't get too caught up on power and matching ratings. The JL HD amps are great if you can afford them. Very nice, small and sound superb from what I hear. PLENTY of other options also. What's your budget for an amp?
Let's see...budget wise I wanted to order an amp JL HD600/4 on amazon for around $600ish so maybe $600ish or so is my budget since that seemed reasonable. Also, yeah it doesnt have to be a JL amp, whatever works best.


2. Run a processor (ex. RF 3sixty.2, JBL MS-8, ARC PS-8 when it comes out, Audison Bit.1, etc)

Either will work great, but #2 give you MUCH more control. Might not be a good thing at this time for you though...since you're a little new to this.

I think I do want to go with #2 there as well, I'd rather have that up front then worry about upgrading later.
How much do these go for?

Another thing I'd like to add is that you need to think about sound deadening and sealing. $500 speakers with no deadening or sealing will likely not sound near as good as $400 speakers with $100 worth of deadening/sealing. Install is a VERY big factor in car audio. We have literally tons of reflections, vibrations, etc to deal with so it's not as easy as just tossing something in and getting the best sound from those speakers.

I run SDS (sound deadener showdown) products in my car. Their CLD tiles for deadening and their Mass Loaded Vinyl (MLV) & Closed Cell Foam (CCF) for the sealing portion. I would suggest looking into either SDS or a company called Second Skin. Jerry...the dealer I was talking about earlier....also sells a product called Cascade, which is certainly on par with the 2 I've already mentioned. Either of the 3 will work great for you.

Yeah I was about to ask this question but didn't get to it. I noticed stock speakers, the sound deadening is pretty decent but of course stock speakers are never amazing lol
So seems like you would HIGHLY recommend this route instead of just installing the speakers and not doing anything about it? on the TL specifically, since its a pretty quiet car, how big of a difference will this make?

Also, about how much $$ material wise did you have to spend on the sound deadening? (take into account im referring to front and back speakers...not worried about trunk/sub yet)

Thanks!!!

ebernedo86

Niebur Thanks for the input as well...
i did not know this about our tweeter locations.....
so two questions on this:
1) If I want to use factory location on speaker install in front, which other components would you recommend in that price range $500ish?
2) If i want to go with focal/JL...where should I install the tweeter and how big of a hassle is it to switch tweeter locations?

Also, I am very open to different brands, I am just looking for the best quality bang for the buck. Are they brands you refer to available in in some shops locally? I'm in Tucson, AZ btw...

Thanks!

niebur3

I will send you a PM.

niebur3

ebernedo86, it says your PM's are full. You can send me an email at jerry_hdma@cox.net and I'll send you a message back or clear your inbox on here. Thanks

ebernedo86

Oh its because I have never posted before other than this thread and I also tried to PM you..your message didnt go thru...its because I need 5 or more posts

I can try emailing

ebernedo86

Ok now I'm at 5 posts lol

xxx_busa

Sent you a PM to contact Buzzman

lookitswillie

what type of music do you listen to the most? focal is at its best when listening to a lot of acoustic while the c5's accommodate different types of music. others on here have already mentioned it but to me the focal tweeters are a bit harsh vs the c5's. another great sound deadening that i would use is dynamat, its a bit expensive but to me none other compares.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

A good speaker should reproduce everything equally well....

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

FWIW, the C5 is a silk tweeter not metal. JL ZRs are aluminum, but C5s are soft domes.

The Focals are metal.

FWIW I hate the factory tweeter location. Too far from the mid for my liking and bouncing off the glass causes all kinds of reflection issues. If you don't want to build kicks, I would prefer a coax mount. Stage will be a little low, but image will be better.

I have C5 650 mids in my doors. they need a spacer and a little coursing to fit.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

I built some cheap pods for the dash tweeters to put them on-axis and just took them apart and put the tweeters back into the factory location. I can say for sure that the pods on-axis made a rock solid center image. I feel like the reflections are causing an image that can drift and that isn't as focused up on the dash.

jda123

If you get the Focals, angle mount them and don't bounce them off of anything. The stock location is not good for much, IMO, except for the stock look. Avoid the windshield as much as you can, even with soft domes.

One thing that you should know about Focal speakers, and other highly detailed speakers... they reproduce bad signals with amazing clarity, meaning that bad signals will sound really bad but the speaker is doing it's job. A less detailed speaker will hide a lot of signal problems.

You are on the right track by going and listening to some. Beware of any shop that tries to steer you towards what they sell... I know that they have to, but at least listen to some stuff first.

Honestly, if this is your first set, you will probably be happy with whatever you pick since the stock sound system leaves so much to be desired.

I really do like my Focals, but I don't presume to know what is best for you so please listen around (in cars are better than on a board). If you are in/near KC, then stop by and I can play you some Focal sets that are neither fatiguing or harsh, but the worst sound quality component in my system (IMO, anyway) is the ELS head unit.

ebernedo86

Diamond,
how do you like the C5s so far and what kind of amp are you running to them? Also with regards to the rear, are you still using those (left connected to stock) or something else?

ebernedo86

Thanks for all the responses guys,

Also I did do some checking and calling some more respectable audio shops in AZ...
One of the guys thats well known and respected in Phoenix gave me some good insight..and I wanted to get thoughts...

Its called Soundwerks in Scottsdale and they range from cheaper stuff all the way up to really high scale stuff.

We chatted about tweeter locations etc..for the TL he recommended the component coaxials where the tweeter is right in the middle. that would help solve the stock tweeter location issue so I may go with that

I told him about the c5 or focal 165v30 among other brands and he sells most, including high end DynAudio stuff that neibur recommended..
At the time i said my budget was $500-$600 for a set in the front
his recommendation was the C5s.....
he also mentioned if you want a good sounding system, you may also want to put an aftermarket sub (I mentioned i was going more for the highs and mids and didnt want to spend too much), but it was mentioned that you want good low freq to mix in with the high and mid freq.

So anyway, if I go this route....I would want something that wouldn't take up any trunk space or have a sub molded to the side wall or something...any suggestions or thoughts here?

Also another recommendation given was to focus on the front and dont worry about the back. I still want speakers in the back and one thing the guy mentioned is go with c5s in the front and if you want..just hook up the rears to stock even though the c5s will still probably drown out the rear stocks....any recommendations here?

Or I could get another set of coaxial components and put them in the back too
But is this worth it or not really?

Thanks for the inputs guys

jda123

I would focus on one thing at a time.

The rears are not full range and only play from about 100 to 3000 hertz. The tweeter on an coax will be wasted. Seriously, the stock midrange are not awful if you put them on an aftermarket amp.

The midbass from a solid set will really help to bridge the gap into the bass. Sealing and deadening the doors will really help too. You might not even need/want an aftermarket sub when you are done.

For no (little) trunk space, you have options... all have their pros and cons.
1). another 6.5 in the front doors - requires no trunk space
2). large volume semi sealed (known as automotive infinate baffle or IB)
3). sub molded to the side (side sealed enclosure).

ebernedo86

Gotcha, I figured this would be much to do in the rear..when you say a solid set, are you referring to a set in the front that will essentially take care of everything or a rear set? recommendations?
I agree with sealing and deadening of the doors..I will definitely need to look into that


I'm not too familiar with option 2..any pictures of this?

Also I think I'm leaning to Option 3....what size woofer do you think I can fit into there? Maybe a 10 or 12? not super think like a JL W1 for example..? W3 would be nice if it can fit..but i'm open to different options on woofers, but I do like the idea of Option 3 there

xxx_busa

If you go with coax, the only drivers I'd use are the new Morels, absolutely the best sounding coax I've ever heard.

http://www.morelhifi.com/products/mo...ntegra_xo.html

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

I love them. I have the 653 set w/ the midbass in the door and the mid and tweet in the kick. I'm running off a JL HD 600/4. I have no rears. Only a center knocked WAY down and a sub in addition to the C5s.

With all speakers I say go listen to them first. No sense in buying them of what some guys on the internet say.

rich20730

ebernedo86

Once again, thanks for the response guys!

Regarding wanting a box or molding on the side for the sub..I think I found what I needed in this same forum

for anyone else that may be interested:
https://acurazine.com/forums/sponsored-sales-group-buys-10/uncald4-custom-subwoofer-enclosures-gen-3-tl-836482/

i think that looks really slick ^^^^ (understandable there are pros and cons) and one of the things i'm looking for is keeping my trunk space and having a clean look etc..

i'm also going to look into Hybrid and Morel speakers as well..gotta do my research and I definitely want to listen before making any purchases

I hate cars

Now that I've gotten my polarity and phase issues solved, the center image is focused and rock steady with the stock tweeter location. In fact, better than in the sails.

niebur3

This may sound like a sales tactic, but trying to listen before buying is absolutely pointless UNLESS you can find all these brands in the exact same shop running off the exact same amp. In order to properly compare different speakers, you need to remove all the variables you can.

So, in shop A that has Morel and Focal and shop B had Dynaudio and Hrbrid (or something like that) you are not comparing apples to apples. Different enclosures for the speakers, amplifier power (you will always gravitate to the one with the most power), room, background noise, wiring/switches (some shops have shitty switches the signal runs through), music (some may not let you play your own), distance the speakers are apart, and about 10 other things I haven't listed. How do you compare when there are 10-20 other variables changing how the speakers sound? Plus, you may LOVE certain speakers on the board and then literally HATE them when installed in a car and unfortunately most sales people at shops now-a-days don't even ask where they are being installed or know the effects of the installation on the speakers.

This is all food for thought when pursuing your quest for new speakers. How do you overcome this? By talking with people who know what they are talking about, forums like this that have people that drive the same car and have experienced many different speakers, searching the brands over on DIYMA, etc. You are literally better off researching and buying without ever listening, unless you can listen to all the brands at the same place in the exact same conditions. Otherwise you may find yourself getting steered to the set with the biggest profit margin or current dealer special.

I am always happy to help if you would like and again, I am a dealer, but try to be as honest as possible and have on many occasions talked very well about certain brands I don't even carry. Why? Because I was an enthusiast for about 20 years and a dealer for only the last 1.5 years. And again, there are several guys on here that are really knowledgeable.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

Man, you are one of the guys on here whose opinion I really respect. Your work looks top notch and you have a great reputation.

I really strongly disagree with you on this point though. Although your logic is very valid, and I totally understand (and agree with) your points about eliminating all variables, and that the performance in the listening room and in the car will be vastly different, telling someone to buy a speaker without listening to it yourself is playing with fire. It's like buying a piece of art without ever seeing it.

We all have our opinions on what sounds good and yes, there is a general consensus of what sounds good but there are quite a few differences between listeners that can really affect the perception.

Example, I really like a speaker that has a smooth flat top end response. I have no idea if the op is either a) 70 years old and lost a fair amount of top end sensitivity, or b) was in a lab accident in school and can't hear much above say 10kHz. Either way, the speaker that I really like might sound completely dead and lifeless to him, where his favorite sounds like shattering glass to me.

Like I said, I agree with your logic, but I suggest a different approach. Be aware of the variables and the differences in listening environment when you are auditioning speakers. Know they will sound different in the car.

I'd still rather at least get a fuzzy idea of what the painting I 'm buying will look like instead of going in blind.

eggyhustles

That's me.

Sparkly top end ftw

jda123

I would go and listen too, if possible. Understanding and creating an awareness of the differences in the shops/board/installs/power/etc. above is part of the comeuppance for a great system.

I have had 8 or 9 sets of comps in the 3G TL and I have no idea what you might like. I know what I like, and what is funny is that tons of people have their opinions about what I like and have never had a speaker in their own cars...

Are you going to have a shop install this stuff? If so, then go an find one that you like, build a relationship with them and trust them (if you are going to put a lot of trust in somebody). They will be there for the purchase, install and post-install support (important). Some of these guys will have speakers in sedans that they will let you listen to - trucks, SUVs and hatchbacks can be a different experience.

If you are going to tear into your car yourself, then you can just wing it like most of us do... as long as you are OK with redoing things if you don't like it.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

I see where you're coming from Jerry. I'm right there with ya on your post. Technically you're right. Realistically everyone is also right that it's nice to listen to everything you can. You can get a bunch of knowledge about listening to speakers on boards, but unless it's in the Acura TL, set up like you'll have it, on roughly the same power, etc...you'll introduce a bunch of new variables when you put them in your car.

niebur3

Again, my point was to put more weight into the listening you do of speakers that are at the same store. Our listening memory (especially when it comes to music) to HORRIBLE. If you go to several stores, it will be very difficult to remember what you like and didn't like. You may take a notebook ad make some notes of what you liked or disliked about various sets.

Since I became a dealer, I have had my eyes opened to some of the tricks that are done in the typical stereo shops. When I built my board, I did it with no switchers or anything that would skew the results of listening. All the amps are level matched, and all the speakers are located in a very close proximity to each other. At most shops here (I went to demo Hertz Millie to know more about my competition and the best speakers they had) and the whole experience was laughable at best. From the salesman telling me the difference between the Millie and the JL's was "the JL's just have that more in your face sound that hurts your ears when you turn them up", to flipping a switch that turned on a sub at very high volumes in the middle of my listening and telling me "now they sound better". The listening board was in the middle of their main walkway, right in front of their sales counter and it couldn't have been noisier. I tried to control the demo as much as possible, but also wanted to see where the salesman was going to lead me and he never asked me ANY questions about car, install location, anything. I went to the last 2 shops, one a Stage4 dealer and the results were even worse. I never let on I was more than a consumer and tried to ask most of the questions I get asked, but the answers I received were comical at best and full of audio myth.

Before this experience, I had a chance to witness a demo from a local high-end home audio shop. That is what I modeled my demo process after!

So, when you go listening, remember the guy is a salesman. At the same time, control your listening session and realize the many variables that could be changing the sound of the speaker (the Millies I hear were about 2 feet above my head....don't think that will even happen in a vehicle...lol). Most importantly, follow jda123's advice and find a shop you trust and can build a rapport with. Once you do that, the BS is limited only by their knowledge....and there are some really smart guys out there doing this who I really respect.

2012TLTech

What do you think of theHertz Mille Pro 6.5 component set (MPK 1653) - Run on a alpine 4 channel (PDXF6) with a Hertz 8 channel dsp (H8DSP)

Im also wanting to do an alpine pdxm12 and 2 dual voice coils type R's in a sealed box.

Any recomendations?

Would you take the rear sub out once it is detached, better airflow to the trunk and sealed box?

Thanks

Nick